Sources for open car body wood plans 1923-1925?

[BuddyTheRoadster]

A client is rewooding a touring car, and he found that the blueprints he was given don't match with the wood in the body. Is there a reliable source for body wood blueprints?

[John kuehn]

You have asked a great question. There was a reliable source of Model T blueprints and after the owner /creator passed away they were sold and the buyer has sat on them supposedly “for the good of the hobby” or so it seems.
We were warned this was going to happen and so far no body wood prints have showed up.

They would be a good resource for the hobby. There are rumors where they went but who knows by now. Different explanations about why arose about it.

There are probably other Model T owners that may have what you need.
Besides the prints for Model T open car bodies may not exactly match what’s in the body. There were up to 5 body makers who built bodies for Model T’s and there are some wood details that are slightly different in some bodies. The prints the client has may have not been taken from the body wood he has.

It’s best to remember all body wood just doesn’t drop in regardless of what prints you use or body wood you buy from a vendor. There is always some fit up that will need to be done.

[Karl Von Neumann]

Who made the plans he's using are they miller plans? I have a setbof those. We could compare them if need be

[NoelChico]

PM sent to BuddytheRoadster.

[Mark Gregush]

For Miller at least; the touring and roadster re-wooding plans are a generalization and need fitting, not cut and put the body together.
There are liberties taken and pretty much need to replace all the wood shown in the plans not just a piece or two or you would need to copy the wood that being replaced or you would need to modify what is shown in the plans to fit what you are working with.

I have never seen the missing plans but from what I have heard, there were some similarities between the two.

The re-wooding kits are the same way no matter where you get them from.

[NoelChico]

I have a set that Leon Parker added notes to. I don't know if there is better fitting after his modifications.

[John kuehn]

Mark G. has it right about fitting wood to a T open body. I texted Leon Parker several years ago when fitting wood to the 21 Touring I rewooded with a kit.
That’s when I found out about the different body makers.
Mel Miller was selling plans for T bodies many years before Leon Parker came along and he made some improvements with Millers plans. Leon later would sell T wood plans at Chickasha and that’s when I met him in person.
Even after he improved Millers plans there is still some fit up you would need to do when you use them. The reason would be because of the different body makers minor differences in the sheet metal.

I bought a set of Millers plans for the 1919 Roadster I restored 40 years ago and later sold them after I used them. Miller did say in his notes on the plans about the need for a trial and error fit when making the wood fit.

The body wood kits are not a one kit fits all exactly and that’s where the fit up might be needed.

[NoelChico]

My Leon Parker 1923-25 touring modified plans are copyrighted 1987. My understanding is that copyright holds for 70 years after the author's death, so i cannot legally sell them. I do believe, however, that I can "loan" them to someone for their use. I might ask shipping and return and a donation to the MTFCA for their use.
Whether you think you can or think you can't, you're right"
"The failure to make a decision is a decision"
Noel

[Scott_Conger]

Noel

you absolutely may sell them - the first sale doctrine allows for the resale of any copyrighted material. If that were not the case, there would be no used-book stores anywhere.

You are forbidden to MAKE A COPY and sell the COPY whether that copy is in part or the entire thing.

[Mark Gregush]

Scott is correct also; there was a change in copyright laws that have a before and after date. I would have to look the year up again, but length of time before X year are different than after.
As an example of fitting. I have the touring plans from Miller. I used them to make the pillars that am going to mount to original Ford sills. The tops of the pillars are made different and the angle at the bottom is different because how Miller simplified the construction of the sills.

[John kuehn]

By this time Mel Millers plans have been sold and copied many times as well as Leon Parkers. With that being said maybe it’s best to buy a wood kit from Fordwood or Classic Wood products and be done with it if a person feels uneasy about it.

After all these companies got their wood plans from some where and either copied them or bought them from somebody. Maybe they had the wood out of the cars they are making the wood structure from .
The best thing to do is to tell your friend to buy the kit from them and be done with it.
And by the way he will still need to hand fit some of the wood. You always have to.

[Mark Gregush]

Fordwood from my understanding worked with Miller so their wood would be the same. Fordwood started out in Beaverton Oregon before moving to Utah.

[CDHing]

There's another factor to consider concerning the re-wooding of a 1923 verses 1924 and the 1925 touring car which is the changes made at Ford as the car and its production evolved. For example, early in 1923 there was a low radiator/cowl version which was replaced by the high radiator/cowl body causing a change in the front most pillar as well as a change from wood to stamped steel floor risers and the combining of the front most chassis frame to sill bracket into a combined bracket. The cut of the body sill boards changed. Also as the touring car design progressed the front door hinged pillar changed from wood to stamped steel. It might be that your client's touring car drawings are the best possible available since I believe that neither Mr Miller nor Mr Parker documented all the transitions Ford was making independently of what the body contractors were doing during production. When I purchased the drawings for my 1921 Roadster, from Mr. Parker, he provided me with a full set of Mel Miller drawings and offered to answer specific questions if I found differences from the drawings to my 1921. He also mentioned having photos of a wood body structure which I would have to have requested. At the time he had no re-draw of the Miller roadster drawings and the Miller drawings lacked a lot of detail concerning the seat rail and flooring below the turtle deck. The turtle deck wood itself wasn't even represented in the drawing. I had heard rumors that Mr. Parker was going to make revisions to the Miller drawings but I've never seen any. Unfortunately, Mr. Parker passed away. Also I believe that Mr. Miller drew his drawings from the mindset of a 1970's Model T hobbyist where many original body parts were still plentiful as opposed to a 21st century preservationist having to rely on iffy reproduced body panels. I say this based on what Mr. Miller wrote in the full set 1914 Touring car plans I have. He describes without guilt how to cut up 1920's era touring sheet metal to simulate 1914 sheet metal as well flattening later front doors to create a 1914 style front door. Speaking of front doors there's also the matter of the difference between USA market open cars (single front door) verses Canadian open cars (bilateral front doors). Mr. Miller noted that he was aware that he was basing his 1914 drawings on a single specific car and not on an exhaustive review of an extensive sampling of 1914 specimens. My point is that there may be many reasons for the differences between your client's drawings and his specific touring car and so there might not even be a better matching set of drawings available than what he already has. I wish your client all the best with his project.

[big2bird]

A client is rewooding a touring car, and he found that the blueprints he was given don't match with the wood in the body. Is there a reliable source for body wood blueprints?

Use the existing as patterns. It doesn't get any better.

[Scott_Conger]

For Dennis Chan and for future readers:

If you purchased a set of drawings for your 1921 Roadster and there was no information regarding wood "floor" under the turtle deck, then you were sold an incomplete set of plans.

I purchased those same plans years ago from Leon, for my early '23 (low cowl) roadster and that information with dimensions was there. There were several "D" size sheets and an "A" size sheet (at least 1 and maybe 2). Parts were very close to correct with the exception that the two main rails were shown in two views with two different lengths and the final cut(s) including box joints and rear crossmember had to be made after the under-deck sheet metal was being fitted.