Power reduction at the starter

[Anton Seelmann]

Hello everyone!

I had a starter retrofitted to my 2017 Touring by Duncan and Fraser/Bob Chantrell in Adelaide (12-volt system). It's a bit too stiff. Can I make the starter a little softer by reducing the voltage? If so, how can I reduce the voltage – just for the starter?

Thanks in advance for your helpful advice and

Best regards from Beilngries in Bavaria
Anton Seelmann
www.model-t-ford.de

[TXGOAT2]

Is the starter a regular Ford T 6 volt starter? If so, using it on a 12 volt system is likely to result in damage to the starter drive and perhaps to the flywheel. There isn't a good way to reduce the voltage to the starter when it is first engaged, which is when the reduction in voltage is most needed. A 6 volt starter can be converted to operate correctly on a 12 volt system, and starters that have been converted may be available. New, non-original 12 volt starters are available.

[George House]

Its controversial. Others will say this isn’t effective but it works for me: I use a Ford T 6 volt starter with s 12 volt battery and I’ve inserted a ruined bendix spring onto the starter bolt with the other end of the bendix spring attached to the cable from the starter switch. When cranking the engine the starter motor receives 8.9 volts. Been running this way for years…viel gluck

[TXGOAT2]

It's credibly said that the resistor method will do little to reduce over-strain on the starter drive, since the applied voltage will be 12 volts when the starter is first engaged and before the starter motor is actually cranking the motor. It's normal with a 12 volt system for voltage at the starter to drop to around 10 volts when the starter is turning the engine. Under the same circumstance, a 6 volt starter operating on a 12 volt system will cause the voltage to drop lower yet, owing to its having far less internal resistance than a comparable 12 volt starter.

[TXGOAT2]

It's worth noting that the flywheel ring gear is not easily replaced if damaged, and broken starter drive parts can cause serious damage to the transmission and the magneto. Beyond that, even if the starter drive does not fail outright, operating it on 12 volts can be expected to generate an abnormal amount of metal particles which will circulate with the oil to all parts of the engine and transmission. I'd use the correct starter, or use the hand crank. The 6 volt Model T equipment works very well, especially when paired with a modern voltage regulator and LED lights.

[Mike Silbert]

Over the years I have seen different attempts to drop the voltage from using a bendix spring, to undersized cables, to longer cables, to resistors and they all do something to varying degrees.
I have also seen people who just run a 6V starter on 12V and hope.
They will all work for a while and eventually be an issue.
They will all work for years so the owner will declare them as no problem.
Even the original 6 volt setup needs repair eventually.
A good starter setup at 6V has worked fine for over 100 years now.

Personally I just leave them stock, and if there is an issue with using 6 volts, I fix it.
I don't consider the risk of damage worth feeding a 6 volt starter with 12 volts even with one of the "fixes".
The harder impact of using 12 volts will wear out parts faster.
And I don't advertise to everyone that I use 12 volts every time I start the car from the sound it makes. They sound wrong to me.

But I will admit that a couple rare instances forced the car to 12 volts and I have converted the stock starter to run 12 volts.
Given the difficulty of converting the starter there needs to be a very important reason for me to do so.
Here is how it's done.
https://mtfca.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=10169
https://mtfca.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=31450
Or get one already converted from a rebuilder.

Just because it's obsolete does not mean it can not continue to work fine for a long time.
Most of the 15 million Model T's had obsolete technology in them the day they were built.

The 12 volt issue is filled with many, many thoughts and styles.
It is like what kind of bands to use in the transmission.
This is my thoughts and actions.

Mike

[TXGOAT2]

Resistive solutions, such as using a starter spring as a resistor, don't do much to protect the starter drive since the starter motor doesn't draw much current UNTIL the starter drive is engaged and the engine is actually being cranked by the starter, at which time the current draw goes way up. Another drawback is the fact that the spring/resistor doesn't have much resistance until it gets hot, which it will only do AFTER the starter drive has slammed into engagement and starter is cranking the engine. If the engine does not start readily, the resistor spring may get so hot under prolonged cranking that it actually reduces the voltage at the starter too much, thus making hard starting even harder.

[Allan]

Hello Anton. Your mention of the Chantrell owned Duncan and Fraser car caught my attention. The D and F car bodies were built in Adelaide, South Australia. They are correctly described as tourers. The Americans use of touring is short for touring car.

Allan from down under.

[TXGOAT2]

Were the D & F cars 12 volt equipped?

[Anton Seelmann]

Thanks to everyone! This is a great forum!!!

A special thanks to Mike Silbert for the links.

Since I have several starters in stock, I'll later modify one of them according to the instructions (links from Mike) and equip it with new coils. Alternatively, I could convert the lights, etc., back to 6V and use a second 12V battery with its own circuit for the phone charger, etc. I'm still considering my options.

For immediate use, I'll implement an interim solution:

I'll install a second battery with a separate circuit just for the starter.

This way, I can run the lights, turn signals, phone charger, etc., on the 12V circuit.

PS to TXGOAT2: Yes, my D&F car was equipped with two 12-volt batteries.

Best regards from Beilngries/Germany
Anton Seelmann

[Moxie26]

Let's take this back.. if there was so many problems with the 6-volt battery and charging systems, why did it last so long? Most cars had 6 volt systems either positive or negative ground up until the mid-50s. The important thing is to use the proper battery cables. Those cables are rated to carry amperage, not voltage. 6. Volt system with 2/0 cables and generators with cut-outs or the new regulators, starts the car fine. Everyone has his notion that 12 volts is the answer for cars with 6 volt system problems, along with changing to smaller battery cables that the 12-volt system used..... Why did it take so long to change over to 12 volts with all the major car manufacturers?...... As far as using the cell phone charger in our Model T's, cell phone chargers work on less than 6 volts, and when used in our cars really do charge your phone when needed.

[John.Zibell]

Thanks to everyone! This is a great forum!!!

A special thanks to Mike Silbert for the links.

Since I have several starters in stock, I'll later modify one of them according to the instructions (links from Mike) and equip it with new coils. Alternatively, I could convert the lights, etc., back to 6V and use a second 12V battery with its own circuit for the phone charger, etc. I'm still considering my options.

For immediate use, I'll implement an interim solution:

I'll install a second battery with a separate circuit just for the starter.

This way, I can run the lights, turn signals, phone charger, etc., on the 12V circuit.

PS to TXGOAT2: Yes, my D&F car was equipped with two 12-volt batteries.

Best regards from Beilngries/Germany
Anton Seelmann

You don't need 12 volts for the phone charger. I run a 6 volt system and added a standard socket connector for my Garmin and phone charger. Just be sure to use a name brand phone charger not some after market knock off.

[Mike Silbert]

Anton,

If your desire is to charge a cell phone or GPS then hook it to the 6 volt battery, it works fine.
Inside the unit the battery voltage is either 3v, 3.3v, or 5 volts and will work just fine
No need for 12 volts for that.
See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2q2ndf7jmY
I hope it is Ok to have a Model A video here for informational purposes...
It's good, although I feel he installed the plug where it could be stepped on.
I prefer to install lighter plugs in the corners of the cowl using existing bolts.

Turn Signals and Extra Lights:
It is easier to get 12 volt lights but there are 6 volt ones out there.
The last "problem" area was good 6 volt headlight bulbs.
Recently there have been some good ones finally appearing on the market.

What I do on my cars is to leave the stock 6 volt system intact and add a small 12Volt computer battery under the seat.
Something like this one but there are many, many options out there.
https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/produ ... ls-2273564
Add a little fuse panel for charging in and power circuits out.
If someone is interested I could draw it up the circuit, currently the design is only in my cars and my head.
I install all 12 volt LED lights for brakes, turn signals, side marker lights, running lights etc so the maximum load is very low and can run for a very long time without charging.

But I charge the battery using the built in magneto to charge the battery.
The magneto charger is described in the MTFCA electrical book
https://www.modeltford.com/item/RM1.aspx
and also described in the following
https://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/4 ... 1416288062
viewtopic.php?t=24793
With my bulb mounted under the hood and it lighting up when charging I get a really cool nighttime effect.
I look like bright shark gills from the side and it lights up my pedals while running along.
Just a very interesting unexpected side result.

I prefer simple, easy, reliable, and something that I can get parts for when I am away from home on a trip.
When you have a problem with too custom of a part you could get stuck if there is an issue away from home.
That is how I do it, others do it differently.
You have to do what works best for you.
Mike

[Moxie26]

Mike... Thanks for posting that YouTube video on hooking up a cell phone charger in a 6-volt car....LED bulbs work just as well on 6 as they do on 12 volt.

[TXGOAT2]

Inexpensive 6 to 12 volt converters are available in several current capacities. They provide 12 volt, "clean" power that can operate modern electronic devices as well as LED lighting, turn signals, etc.

[Mike Silbert]

Some 12 volt bulbs work fine on 6 volts and some do not.
It is always safe to operate a bulb at lower than rated voltage but the light output is not guaranteed.
There are many bulbs out there that will work fine on a wide range of voltages.
Sometimes they tell you, sometimes they do not.

All individual LED items work in the range of about 1.8V to 2.2VDC.
Although there are individual items where there is a resistor built in and work on higher voltages.
Digikey this morning has 8,331 different LED parts in stock this morning so the possibilities are almost infinite.
If they are hooked to higher voltages than rated it will be brighter briefly, with the current and heat that is too high and it burns up.
Heat (excess current) is the biggest enemy of electronics and needs to be worked around.

To make the bulb assemblies we use at 6 and 12 volts the manufacturer has to do something.
They string the individual elements in series, or add resistors, or add regulators to make them safe to operate at the designed voltage range.
Usually some combination of methods is used but they never tell you what was done.

I have spent way more time reading spec sheets that I care to think about and learned one thing.
What is on the spec sheet is decided on by the manufacturer and the criteria for the limits varies.
They list the range that they guarantee the bulb will work in. There is always a larger range where they will work than that.
Even the units used for the measurements varies between manufacturers.
Throw on top of all that there is light angle, mounting direction, the way the socket is in the fixture, color of light, brightness and more.
So it can drive you crazy with all the details.

Confused yet?
It is very overwhelming when you get into the details.
This leaves everyone with 4 options
1) Spend lots of time and still maybe get it wrong sometimes. I have a box full of new bulbs that did not perform as I expected.
2) Buy what might be right and try to see if it works for you. This is what most people end up doing.
4) Talk to everyone about what they did and what worked. But as time changes, parts change and this is a moving target that is hard to follow.
3) Build your own lights. Not a realistic possibility these days.

If you want to use a use a bulb differently than the manufacturer says, you have to test it.
It might work, it might not.
The world is full of possibilities and options.
Mike

[Anton Seelmann]

Thanks again to everyone!

Yes, I'm a bit confused and need a few days to think it over. I have two Ford Model Ts with 6V systems, and they work perfectly.

How many amps does an original 6V starter need?

Mike: Building my own lights is a very interesting option—a very nice and humorous suggestion.

I'll check if I can get all the necessary bulbs, turn signal, etc., in 6V, or if the existing ones will also work at 6V.

An alternative would be using a 6V to 12V converter with 10 amps for bulbs, etc.; I'll just think about it for a few days/weeks.

A big thank you again to everyone for your ideas, and

Best regards,
Anton

[TXGOAT2]

`A Model T starter can draw from 100 to about 150 amps when cranking the engine.

[Craig Leach]

I run my Ts on 12 vac using the lowest cca
Battery I can find & have even installed a
Riding mower battery in a T ( 180 cca) worked fine with little bendix bang & charges up
fast. I do annually inspect the drive & replace the key, screws & locks @ that time.
Craig.

[Moxie26]

https://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/2 ... POST431661. ..... Old Forum postings to answer amperage questions.

[Mike Silbert]

Craig,

I Quote - "I run my Ts on 12 vac using the lowest cca"

I really hope this is a typo and you do not run your starter on 12 volts AC
I have never tried applying alternating current to a Model T starter motor, it might be an interesting test.
I think you meant to say - 'I run my Ts on 12 vDC using the lowest cca'

Or maybe you were just checking to see if anyone was paying attention?
Mike

[Moxie26]

`A Model T starter can draw from 100 to about 150 amps when cranking the engine.

https://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/2 ... POST431661. ..... Old Forum postings to answer amperage questions.

`A Model T starter can draw from 100 to about 150 amps when cranking the engine.
[

Let's take this back.. if there was so many problems with the 6-volt battery and charging systems, why did it last so long? Most cars had 6 volt systems either positive or negative ground up until the mid-50s. The important thing is to use the proper battery cables. Those cables are rated to carry amperage, not voltage. 6. Volt system with 2/0 cables and generators with cut-outs or the new regulators, starts the car fine. Everyone has his notion that 12 volts is the answer for cars with 6 volt system problems, along with changing to smaller battery cables that the 12-volt system used..... Why did it take so long to change over to 12 volts with all the major car manufacturers?...... As far as using the cell phone charger in our Model T's, cell phone chargers work on less than 6 volts, and when used in our cars really do charge your phone when needed.

/quote]

[Mike Silbert]

I thought about it and decided to draw up how I wire LED lights for my car.
It is a totally custom made out of parts.
The fuse block uses glass fuses and is brass from a marine supply store.
I make a control panel with the switches and indicator lights.
I mount the control panel in the middle so the driver and passenger can see and work the controls.
Mike

[Allan]

All my srater equippef T's run on 6 volt standard systems.
It helps that my son works in the solar power industry and he makes my battery leads, probably a bit on the overkill side.
The biggest problem is purchasing 6 volt, 18 watt festoon bulbs for the indicator lamps I use! I think I now have another lifetime supply in my stash.


Allan from down under.