how to tell between 23 and 25 roadster

[jeanst46]

The car iam looking at the motor is stamped 1923 but the canvass top has a single piece of glass. I heard that the door hinges on the 25 are of different length .Not sure thats right.Any help would be very helpful . As you can tell this will be my first model T Thanks

[Humblej]

Please post some pictues and the experts will weigh in.

[RajoRacer]

'25 door hinges are equal length - earlier cars, the bottom hinge sticks out considerably. A true '25 has a single back light.

[Kerry]

On the frame the 23 could still have the holes for the earlier cast running board brackets and 25 would have 2 rivets on the hand brake quadrant instead of 4.

[Dan Hatch]

Car that changed the world.

[Mike Silbert]

The devil is in the details, and there are lots of little ones.
Here is a detailed look at the frame differences.
https://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/3 ... 1366353153

Here is an abbreviated copy of the black book called "The Car That Changed The World"
https://www.mtfca.com/encyclopedia/
The full version has a whole lot more

There are many Model T folks scattered all around.
If you join up with some local Model T folks they are a wonderful resource.

If you want to keep going further into the details there are a lot more reference books written like these...
https://www.modeltford.com/item/JG1.aspx
https://www.modeltford.com/item/PART-G.aspx
https://www.modeltford.com/item/PART-G2.aspx
and a whole lot more.

Model T's were a rolling evolutionary change.
Keeping track of all of the changes and exactly when they happened is a very difficult science.
Then add on top of that 100 years of repairs, updates, and restorations Model T's can be quite mixed up sometimes.
The best thing is that your car being perfect is not a requirement to be good running and reliable, and not a requirement to have fun enjoying it.

Pictures are a great help identifying cars and parts.
Mike

[jeanst46]

I am attaching pictures to help identify the year of the Model T. Also assuming it runs and drives OK, the seller is asking $7,500. Does this seem reasonable?

[speedytinc]

Depends on motor condition.
Top complete?
From your pictures it could be 23-25. No door hinge shown.

[DanTreace]

Likely a ‘24 or a ‘25 as upper windshield frame has holes for mirror and wiper. High radiator, can see an accessory speedometer drive too. 21” split rims optional on ‘25, which this T has. Interesting bracket on driver side for a rim, but there should be a rear carrier. Value depends on running condition, radiator, tires, upholstery and top cover as replacement of those add up to more cost.

[DHort]

Raise the top, drain a little fluid out of the radiator - take an ice cream bucket, and start the car - drive it a little.

[Mark Gregush]

1924 or 1925 model. Could have been built in late 1923 after the model year ended for 1923. Looks like a nice car but make sure the seller has paperwork in their name before buying. To drive on the road they still need to be registered, license and insured.

[George House]

Yeah, it’s a ‘24-‘25 body style. Wide cowl and apron covering lower radiator tank is a giveaway. $7500 is a decent price..

[Scott_Conger]

Rust boiling out of waterpump and staining out of head gasket tells me this thing has been run for years with straight water which will have eroded the block some. Maybe a little, maybe a lot.

Top and upholstery look to be old and tired...paint has some pops but appears pretty typical of a car restored or repainted 30 years ago or so and is presentable. Overall not a bad looking car.

If it runs cool and is peppy with no unusual noises AND you want to keep the car JUST AS IT IS, then $7500 is OK

If you intend to jazz it up with new interior or top or any other improvements then $7500 starts to be an expensive starting point and $6000-$6500 looks to be a lot more attractive

Look again at the weep at the front of the head gasket. If it's active and it likely is (or will be with coolant in it) you're going to be looking at replacing the head gasket, dealing with possibly eroded threads requiring helicoils, and then scratching your head as to whether or not to do a valve job once the lid's lifted. Be very very careful as to how much you want to "fix" at this point or that $7500 will start to look very expensive.

To me, this should be a very happy, peppy car that neither smokes nor makes bad sounds at the price offered. This might be your car, or not. There are lots of them out there if you look, and while the price may be fair, it is by no means cheap for this market.

My standard advice to anyone contemplating purchasing a "T" is to plan on having at least $1500 free cash lying around to make the car what you want...be it rebuilding a couple wheels, rebuilding the front axle...new starter or generator...you name it...you're going to spend some bucks much sooner than later, and that should weigh heavily on the initial purchase price.

Best of luck and welcome to the Forum

[Art M]

In addition to what Scott recommends, I would ask the seller about checking the compression on each cylinder. If he doesn't allow the check, then the price goes down substantially. I have found that low compression will cause higher than normal engine heating. Hence, that might be why there is a water pump on the car. Or maybe the radiator is not up to par. Or maybe it's there for the same reason I have one on my car. I just like them and never had a problem in 49 years.

Art Mirtes

[Original Smith]

A 1923 would have a low radiator.

[jeanst46]

Wow thanks for the info Great stuff Checking the compression is the first thing I do when looking at a car to buy. I however don't know what psi should I expect.

[John kuehn]

The front fenders have the apron under the headlights. The radiator has the lower apron. Those two things say it’s a 24 or 25. The straight door hinge is usually a 25.
The body seems pretty straight. If it runs good that’s a good thing.
Adding the water pump in the past says something. Why was it needed? I can’t tell if the radiator is a recore or original. If it’s an original round tube that’s a big factor along with the supposed need of a water pump.
Make sure it has a good title for sure and if not it’s a 500.00 deduct off of the price. Was the car rewooded in the past since it seems to have been restored in the past but to what extent and what was done. The paint seems good enough to be polished or buffed out. Looks like it has a speedometer on it too. Wonder what the dash looks like.

If you can start it up drive it around until the engine is hot. Let it idle at low speed and see how long it takes for it to start gurgling and maybe boiling over some. Then you’ll know the condition of the radiator or block.
If he’ll come down some go from there for a deal around 7000.00 but no higher.

[Art M]

Jean,
To answer your question about what compression would be expected for a model T engine. Opinions vary about what is acceptable.
For a rebuilt engine, 55 to 62 psi is what I would expect. At 40 psi, the engine will run ok, but not what I would want. At 50 psi, I would probably leave it alone.

When I bought my car, the engine had 40 psi. I ground the valves which brought the compression to 50 psi. Later, New rings were installed on slightly worn cylinder walls. The compression rose to 62 psi.

Keep us informed on your search for a Model T.

Art Mirtes