Newbe 1919 Touring Questions

[Boaski]

I recently purchased a 1919 Touring that was restored / assembled back in 1980. I purchased it from the restorers son. The engine is from 1919, but I have no idea how much of the rest of it is from the same year. This is my first T automobile, though I did have a Model T doodlebug for a few years.

I'm able to start and drive the car up the road and back, but it needs some attention as it wasn't kept in the best environment for the last few years. One of the main things I'm unsure about is the wheels.

The spokes are tight, but the wheels don't run exactly true. What are some things to look for as I decide whether to use the wheels and just refinish them, or do I need to take them to Stutzmans for a rebuild??

[Steve Jelf]

I go with Stutzman for wood felloe wheels, but steel felloe (demountables) are a good DIY project. It's not hard to make a Regan press. https://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG108.html

You probably won't need to do everything on Milt Webb's list, but he tells you what to check. https://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG93.html

[Joe Reid]

The top and the body look 1919. If you grab a tire and shake it do the spokes wiggle? Looks like a different hub modification.

[Joe Reid]

The spokes look a little dry, have you used any light sand paper on them? If they are dusty I would look to replace them.

[Wayne Sheldon]

Assessing the wooden spoke condition can be tricky? Or not. Many people take a "perfect world" approach. "If the spokes are not essentially perfect? They MUST be replaced!
Actually? That isn't a bad idea. Maybe.
The big reality of wooden spoke wheels is that they are a lot stronger than most people think! Provided the wood isn't seriously compromised somehow by age, wear, or physical damage.
The wood DOES shrink slightly with age. It might be weakened by any of several types of age rot, woodworms, and sometimes it begins to split due to age. However, if the wood is in fairly good shape. and only a bit loose due to shrinkage? There are good ways to tighten them up.

Some amount of wheel wobble, or runout, is normal. You do want the circumference/radius to be very close to even all the way around. Otherwise those days when you are rip-roaring down the highway with both the throttle and spark fully advanced, an out-of-round wheel will likely begin to bounce (been there done that!)!
As for the side to side not being quite true such that as the wheel turns slowly you can see the outer part of the felley going in and out and in and out as around and around it goes? How much is too much? Most people agree that if it is within a quarter of an inch? It is fine. Frankly, I have had a couple wheels that had about a half inch of wobble, and I never had any trouble from running them. Even on a speedster at 70 mph! I wouldn't recommend running wheels with a half inch of wobble. However as long as wheels are strong and TIGHT, the usual quarter inch should be fine.

I "stressed" the word "TIGHT" because the worst thing you can do is run wooden wheels loose! Even only slightly loose allows the wooden spokes and the fellies (either wood or steel!) to work against each other. They quickly get looser, and then wear faster! Same with the connections between the spokes and the hubs. Any slippage type movement at all can allow the wooden parts of the wheel to wear quickly, and a wheel can eat itself alive in only a couple hundred miles (maybe even less?).

Even new wooden spokes can become loose for a variety of reasons. High dry climate can cause it, as can other things.
One of the favorite reasons for new wood in wheels? Is the sense of security one gets from knowing their spokes are all new and perfect! But make no mistake about it. Even new wooden spokes can go bad, get loose, and then chew themselves to pieces!

Again, I say, wooden spoke wheels are a lot stronger than most people think they are. As long as the right kind of wood was used, and they are in good condition and TIGHT! There is no good reason to be afraid of them! They were a natural evolutionary design that worked very well on many millions of cars for many decades and for tens and even hundreds of thousands of miles!
Wooden spoke wheels should be routinely inspected. Nothing really elaborate. Look them over, give them a hard shake to see if any looseness has crept in. Also look for rust or wood dust accumulating around the hub or fellies (a telltale sign of something loose?)? Do this once a year if you don't drive the car a whole lot. Maybe a few times a year if you drive a lot more than most model T people do.

In closing, something I have said many times. "Accidents often break wooden wheels. Breaking wooden wheels rarely ever cause accidents."
The exception to that rule is an already damaged or loose wheel. I have seen a few of those. Actually broken wheels glued back together and painted up nice. Only for the glue to separate while driving slowly.
There are a lot of things one can do to repair old wood wheels, and do it safely. But there are also a lot of things one should NEVER try to repair and use.

[George House]

After light sanding the spokes, apply a 50/50 solution of boiled linseed oil and denatured alcohol. NOT straight linseed oil. It’ll bring new life to strong but dried out spokes. And if the rear hub caps haven’t been removed for over 4 decades, I’d remove them and torque the axle nuts to 90 LBS.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

And if the rear hub caps haven’t been removed for over 4 decades, I’d remove them and torque the axle nuts to 90 LBS.

Good advice. However, if you find that the nuts are now loose, I would first remove the hubs/wheels and inspect the keyways & keys for wear & damage before tightening the axle nuts.

[Boaski]

Thank you for all of the great input. I hope to measure lateral wobble tonight to see what it actually is. I do not trust the tires so I'm going to go ahead and order a set. Are the Wards Riverside from Eckler's a decent tire? I also found the ammeter has gone bad so I need to get one of those purchased.

When I bought the car it came with a few extras. One is this item from Walker Mfg

Is it a wheel clamp for changing tires on demountable rims?

I might have to pull the rear wheels as the rear drums are oily or greasy so the brake bands aren't doing much. It has a Ruckstell axle and Rocky Mountain Brakes. I assume the first thing I need to look for is leaking axle seals.

[Scott_Conger]

For Joe Reid - those are simply period dress-up plates to cover the bolt heads...those are standard "T" wheels

For Boaski - you may not trust those tires, but if they're that old, they may well be USA made...and whether or not USA made, are likely as good or better than what you can buy new. Go very slowly on changing things on this car until you have it running, are comfortable with it's performance and are certain that there is actually something wrong that needs fixing. Lots of fun to be had here, and certainly some things which will need quick attention, but they will not necessarily be the things you think.

Welcome to the affliction

[Wayne Sheldon]

That "rim tool" is very desirable!!! However, it won't help you with your clincher style rims and tires. It is one of the best type floor mounted split rim spreader tools ever made. It is used for breaking down and collapsing the type of "split rims" made to do that in order to change the tire on the rim. Then with the new or repaired tire and tube, it safely and easily re-expands the rim so that it can be locked into place (assuming the locking mechanism is still there and good?). Clincher rims have no locking mechanism, and are not made to be collapsed to make changing tires easier. This type rim tool is wonderful for the later model T's 21 inch split rims on wooden spoke wheels, and also hundreds of other makes of cars that used that type split rims.
You may want to keep the rim tool? Maybe in your future there will be a car that could really use it? Or you may want to sell it or maybe trade it for other model T stuff you may want? Just don't ask me how much it is worth. I would only be guessing. Just don't grab the first fifty dollars offered. I know it is worth much more than that! Actual condition (working etc.) does make a big difference on value.

There is considerable confusion about simply called "split rims". The same term has for too long been used for two completely different types of wheel rims. The multi-part "split ring" type rims and/or wheels used on some cars from about 1910 into the early 1930s, and used on some big trucks even still today, are affectionately known as "widow makers"! Make no mistake about it! The "split ring" type "split rims" can kill a person working on them!
However, the "collapsible split rims" are nearly as safe as any modern wheel. Yes they can be difficult to work with, even nearly impossible if the rim is in poor condition. A person can hurt themselves trying to take them apart or putting them together (like any modern wheel?). And they can under certain conditions pop apart under pressure, and maybe even explode the innertube. However, they will not under pressure or poor workmanship in any likelihood throw a piece of steel hard enough to seriously injure a person.

Your T appears to have the much more common clincher style rims and tires. There will be a learning curve getting to know them. Get good advice about them from some local hobbyists that can help and guide you through your first efforts to change the tires on the rims. There is quite a bit to know and learn, and several tricks of the trade that might make them easier to work with. Once people become familiar with them? They aren't tough. And if perhaps you have experience with certain motorcycle wheels and tires? You could already be halfway there?

[Allan]

In relation to nothing in particular, is it usual to find fixed lug wheels/rims on a 1919 T model in the USA? I ws under the impression that the first of the demountable rims were of the loose lug variety.

Allan from down under.

[Oldav8tor]

Another thing to check when assessing the spokes - with the demountable rims removed, look at the conditions of the tenons (the part of the spoke that pokes thru the felloe.) If it looks like a wart, it has been compromised and the spokes are on borrowed time. A good whack on such a spoke sheared off the tenon as shown in the first photo.

Should look like this

[Boaski]

I measured the lateral runout on all 4 wheels tonight. They range from 1/8" to 3/16". There is very little vertical runout.

Here are some close ups of some of the cracking in the tires:

They're Coker tires. One of the tubes has a leak, so we'll see how it holds up when we break the bead.

One of the front wheels has some spoke damage from the speedometer.

I'll pull a rim or two and see what the top of the spokes look like.

I've only put about 8 or 10 miles on it so far. It has some wandering going on so I've only had it to 25 mph. Everything actually seems remakably tight in the steering except the tie rod end on the drag link.

As suggested I need to find a local "T person" to take a look at it and give me some pointers on what's normal and what isn't.

Thank you for all of the input!

[Scott_Conger]

well, you can ditch my hopeful reply on the tires! The good news is that they're probably so hard that the leaking one won't go completely flat.

Get experienced help when you remove them. I just removed a set last year that looked like that after rolling the car around for 8 years during a very SLOW restoration. One of the 3 came off in pieces and all 4 were welded onto the rims with hidden rust. The Riverside tubes inside were pristine, and can be reused...thus my point about getting help removing the tires without damaging the tubes.

[Boaski]

That "rim tool" is very desirable!!! However, it won't help you with your clincher style rims and tires. It is one of the best type floor mounted split rim spreader tools ever made. It is used for breaking down and collapsing the type of "split rims" made to do that in order to change the tire on the rim. Then with the new or repaired tire and tube, it safely and easily re-expands the rim so that it can be locked into place (assuming the locking mechanism is still there and good?). Clincher rims have no locking mechanism, and are not made to be collapsed to make changing tires easier. This type rim tool is wonderful for the later model T's 21 inch split rims on wooden spoke wheels, and also hundreds of other makes of cars that used that type split rims.
You may want to keep the rim tool? Maybe in your future there will be a car that could really use it? Or you may want to sell it or maybe trade it for other model T stuff you may want? Just don't ask me how much it is worth. I would only be guessing. Just don't grab the first fifty dollars offered. I know it is worth much more than that! Actual condition (working etc.) does make a big difference on value.

There is considerable confusion about simply called "split rims". The same term has for too long been used for two completely different types of wheel rims. The multi-part "split ring" type rims and/or wheels used on some cars from about 1910 into the early 1930s, and used on some big trucks even still today, are affectionately known as "widow makers"! Make no mistake about it! The "split ring" type "split rims" can kill a person working on them!
However, the "collapsible split rims" are nearly as safe as any modern wheel. Yes they can be difficult to work with, even nearly impossible if the rim is in poor condition. A person can hurt themselves trying to take them apart or putting them together (like any modern wheel?). And they can under certain conditions pop apart under pressure, and maybe even explode the innertube. However, they will not under pressure or poor workmanship in any likelihood throw a piece of steel hard enough to seriously injure a person.

Your T appears to have the much more common clincher style rims and tires. There will be a learning curve getting to know them. Get good advice about them from some local hobbyists that can help and guide you through your first efforts to change the tires on the rims. There is quite a bit to know and learn, and several tricks of the trade that might make them easier to work with. Once people become familiar with them? They aren't tough. And if perhaps you have experience with certain motorcycle wheels and tires? You could already be halfway there?

Thank you for the info, that is very helpful. It seems to move back and forth just fine. I'm going to have to tie into at least one of the wheels as I have a leaking tube.

[Boaski]

well, you can ditch my hopeful reply on the tires! The good news is that they're probably so hard that the leaking one won't go completely flat.

Get experienced help when you remove them. I just removed a set last year that looked like that after rolling the car around for 8 years during a very SLOW restoration. One of the 3 came off in pieces and all 4 were welded onto the rims with hidden rust. The Riverside tubes inside were pristine, and can be reused...thus my point about getting help removing the tires without damaging the tubes.

I think this car sat with at least a couple flat tires for a while. My biggest concern is safety as I'll be giving my grandkids rides in it.

[Scott_Conger]

when you get the one tire off, take good pictures of the inside edges of the "clinch" area of the rim and share with the Forum for comment. My car sat in weather for years and I thought the rims looked pristine but weathered. As it turned out those pristine rims had the hidden edges rusted into ragged rusty shark's teeth as water sat between them and the tire and just cooked in FL heat and humidity. All rims looked beautiful but were junk.

I mention the following not as an apology for running unsafe tires, but to tamp down unnecessary fear of tire failure on a T: Even new tires suffering blowouts or similar can and will roll right off of a rim while driving...seems to happen at least once on any major "T" tour with a good number of cars. The typical damage is dinged clincher edges...nothing any more catastrophic than that. The only failure of a tire that looked like yours (for me) was a just-purchased car which I was airing up the tires. As I aired the spare on the runabout, I carelessly allowed my face to be right by the tire as I crouched down, and the back side side-wall blew out a 2x4" section of rock-hard rubber which ricocheted off of the trunk and hit me on the forehead. I got a good goose-egg and bruise out of that and couldn't hear well out of one ear for nearly a week (yes, at that proximity it was that loud).

Common sense and an attitude of care will go a long way, and it sounds like you have plenty of both

[Steve Jelf]

Are the Wards Riverside from Eckler's a decent tire?

Yes and no. The link below will explain that. The source of those tires is Lucas, and that's where I would get them if they were my choice. I decided thirty years ago that I would not deal with Mac's/Ecklers again.

https://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG127.clinchers.html

[Joe Reid]

I agree with Steve on Ecklers. They are very difficult to deal with now. Look at Lang’s or Snyders for parts and supplies, Lucas, Coker and Vintage are good places to look for tires. Tires are produced in batches and they all come from Viet

[Joe Reid]

Thanks Scott, I have never seen those dress up pieces.

[Wayne Sheldon]

Scott Conger said " The only failure of a tire that looked like yours (for me) was a just-purchased car which I was airing up the tires. As I aired the spare on the runabout, I carelessly allowed my face to be right by the tire as I crouched down, and the back side side-wall blew out a 2x4" section of rock-hard rubber which ricocheted off of the trunk and hit me on the forehead. I got a good goose-egg and bruise out of that and couldn't hear well out of one ear for nearly a week (yes, at that proximity it was that loud)."

I too aired up a very old tire many years ago. It actually looked much better than yours, however it turned out to have a cotton cord casing inside the tire. Nylon and other synthetic cord tires do not suffer so much from internal casing rot as does cotton cord. Simply the nature of cotton.
I was being a bit careful, and airing the tire up slowly. However, just as the tire pressure reached 55 psi, it blew out. My ears rang for two days. I would bet that explosion was heard a mile away!
Nylon and some other synthetic cord tires (IF they were kind enough to label the tires as such?) often can actually look pretty bad, and still be strong and fairly safe to run.
Model Ts when a tire blows usually do not act really badly. The small tires don't drop the car much, and often the tire quickly flips off the rim. Model Ts "usually" handle fairly well (especially the clincher sizes!) with flats and blowouts. Especially at the speeds we usually drive them. Drivers often are surprised to find they have lost a tire and have to go looking for it. Been there myself and done that!
A few times I have seen drivers not even know that they lost a tire until someone tells them so.


Allan down under, I "think" you are right about the 1919 only having the "loose lug" demountable rims. And maybe many of the 1920 cars also. However, I have never seen anything really definitive about that detail. Most model Ts in this country seem to have had the wheels changed on them at some point. The loose lug demountable rims were a bit of a bother to use, and "ready spares" in garages of the day usually had the fixed lug rims. Since World War Two, most restorations have changed out the loose lug wheels for the more convenient fixed lug wheels.
Frankly, I would like to see more of the loose lug wheels and rims used, if properly done. I have never had the right car to use them on. In my part of the country, we rarely see the rims/lug/or wheels at swap meets to put a set together.

[Boaski]

Another thing to check when assessing the spokes - with the demountable rims removed, look at the conditions of the tenons (the part of the spoke that pokes thru the felloe.) If it looks like a wart, it has been compromised and the spokes are on borrowed time. A good whack on such a spoke sheared off the tenon as shown in the first photo.
IMG_2706.jpg

Should look like this

IMG_2707sm.jpg

I pulled one of the rims off this weekend and the spoke tenons look good.

I have tires, tubes and rim liners coming from Lang's. That will make me feel better to run it around some more to figure out what needs done and I'll inspect the rest of the tenons while I'm at it.

On another note: I received some old receipts and paperwork with the car. One of the interesting receipts was for an engine rebuild that cost a little over $240.00. The thing I found interesting is that it was dated the day I was born.

[Oldav8tor]

The day you were born? I love coincidences like that. My car was built on my Dad's 10th birthday and a 1917 Touring was the first car our family ever owned. Such things make a car even more special.

[Boaski]

My son and I changed the tires today. Someone requested that I post a picture of the edges of one of the rims after the tire was removed. Here are the pictures:

When we were pulling the rims off of the wheels we noticed that on the front wheels the ends of the spokes looked like this:

and the rear wheels looked like this:

Is this how it's usually done?

[Scott_Conger]

things look to be in remarkably good shape

you will find on that one front wheel that what you think are spokes protruding (round) is really just steel dimples in which the spokes have little short tenons simply smooshed into them. If what I say is true, then personally I would take a very close look at the other 3 wheels, take good photos of them and then try to find a 4th wheel just like them (where the tenons go all the way through). Beware that there are multiple versions of "correct" wheels out there so be sure to replicate the style you have

as far as clinchers, the clinch part is about as good as you are EVER going to find on a demountable wheel. You are one lucky fellow!

[DHort]

Agree with Scott about your clinchers. Are you cleaning them up and repainting them?

[Boaski]

I cleaned and wire brushed the insides of the rims, but did not paint them. I had my son helping me (or maybe it was the other way around) and I got into "get it done" mode.

Both front wheels had the dimples that the ends of the spokes fit in. Both rear wheels had the spoke protruding through. What should I do to check that the front wheel spokes are OK?

[Scott_Conger]

I'd put tires on the rims, the rims on the wheels, the car on the ground, and then pinch a thumb and index finger together such that they are pinching tightly around/against the spoke AND the felloe (at 12 o'clock) and then give a mighty heave with the other hand on the tire (at 12 o'clock) and see if there is ANY movement between the spoke and the felloe as detected by finger tips. Then rotate the wheel and redo for all 12 spokes...you're not worrying about kingpin or suspension looseness so don't mistake movement there with movement BETWEEN THE END OF THE SPOKE(S) AND THE FELLOE.

that tests tightness/fit

structural integrity of the wood is another thing entirely and can be somewhat determined by taking the 6 bolts/nuts off, popping the retaining plate off of the spokes at the hub and going at one or more spokes with a screwdriver and determine if the cellulose still has enough natural resins to hold the fibers together or if the wood has become or is heading towards being punky. Even if good, you're going to scar some wood but the retaining plate will cover that cosmetic blemish.

Let's say, everything's wonderful...ok. Once the felloes and spokes are painted, if you ever see paint cracking at the spoke/felloe interface, don't panic, but keep an eye on things. If you ever see fine red dust creeping out from the spoke and starting to coat the felloe around that area, then that is pulverized rust dust creeping out and now when you do your "shake test" you'll probably detect movement...time for new felloes and spokes then. So if the best scenario shows good old spokes, in the mean time, keep eyes peeled for a matching set of felloes to match the rears.

[JTT3]

Todd reading through your post concerning the ammeter, you may not have a bad ammeter. Look for a fuse in the wiring. Though originally no fuse was used, over the year’s prudent people placed one in the wiring. I believe for your year the large ammeter was used. The fuse would be in the heavy yellow wire protruding from the battery side connection of the starter foot switch. It should correctly be a 25 amp fuse. T's didn't have a fuse holder as standard equipment however folks will install them in all sorts of places so you may have to look around. You’ll want to check to see if the ammeter is good, if not Fun projects sold an ammeter with a D’Arsonval movement which was very reliable, I’m not sure Birdhaven is still selling those since buying Funprojects out but it would be worth the money if yours is not working to buy one. Test your ammeter for continuity across the terminals to see if in fact is bad. If it test good, wiring could be a problem, if not it could be your generator. Good luck and welcome to the affliction!

[Boaski]

Thanks Scott for the method to test the spokes. I haven't made it through all of them yet but so far so good. Every spoke that I've checked is tight.

JTT3: I did verify that the ammeter is bad. I bought one from Lang's and things are working. On the other hand I've discovered that the generator isn't charging. I guess it's time to learn about cut out switches and all of that good stuff.

Here's another question: should the tail light come on when the light switch is set to bright or dim. My tail light only comes on when the switch is set to bright.

[Scott_Conger]

your switch likely needs a bit of refreshing, assuming all of the wiring is correct

[JTT3]

Todd ground your generator so you won’t burn it up. Until you find out more about your generator.