HELP!!! SHOULD I USE A WATER PUMP??

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Jonah D'Avella
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HELP!!! SHOULD I USE A WATER PUMP??

Post by Jonah D'Avella » Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:52 pm

I have a old water pump. Should I use it?
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Re: HELP!!! SHOULD I USE A WATER PUMP??

Post by Jonah D'Avella » Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:55 pm

Water pump
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Re: HELP!!! SHOULD I USE A WATER PUMP??

Post by Mark Gregush » Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:56 pm

That depends on what brand of water pump and condition of cooling system? Not enough information about your car to make a judgement. ;) I do but I know my cars.
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :shock:

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Re: HELP!!! SHOULD I USE A WATER PUMP??

Post by Jonah D'Avella » Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:00 pm

Water pump
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Re: HELP!!! SHOULD I USE A WATER PUMP??

Post by TWrenn » Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:04 pm

I might as well be the first one here to play "Devils Advocate", and say WHY?

You shouldn't need one. Obviously it depends mostly on the condition of your radiator.
And of course if the inside of your engine with all the tiny little circulation holes are open.

But still....

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Re: HELP!!! SHOULD I USE A WATER PUMP??

Post by Steve Jelf » Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:08 pm

Yes. It's a useful and period correct accessory.

IMG_0237 copy.JPG
This is the best way to use it.


Seriously, if overheating is a problem here's some info: http://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG96.html
The inevitable often happens.
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Re: HELP!!! SHOULD I USE A WATER PUMP??

Post by Norman Kling » Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:16 pm

It's your car and your choice. They can cause you to lose all your coolant if there is a leak, and a leak can come unexpectedly. It can also cause the engine to run too cold in cold weather. The original thermosyphon system works very well if you have a clean block and good radiator. The advantage of thermosyphon is that the water circulates in relation to temperature, so it actually helps to warm up the cold engine and cool a hot engine. A water pump circulates the coolant regardless of temperature.
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Re: HELP!!! SHOULD I USE A WATER PUMP??

Post by TRDxB2 » Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:46 pm

I'll try to be neutral. - My rule is to have the same negatives as positives
First why you shouldn't:
1. Since it is an OLD water pump you will need to refurbish it. Bushings, shaft etc may be worn and need to be replaced (where do you get them?). Is that something you can do?. The pulley may be worn causing you a few fan belt tracking issues. 2. These things do not pump - they splash. Imagine a spinning propeller trying to move water that is already flowing. 3. If you don't have a cooling problem - don't create one (If it ain't broke don't fix it)
Why you should.
1. You like to refurbish things. 2. You were able to calculate that the water pump's impeller actually increased the flow of the cooling system liquid and maintained a steady 180degree water temperature. 3. The manufacturer of the cooling liquid you use recommends using and old water pump.

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Re: HELP!!! SHOULD I USE A WATER PUMP??

Post by Oldav8tor » Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:03 pm

I have a new radiator and my car never runs hot...never! My car had an old water pump when I bought it but I didn't want to introduce another possible point of failure. If I felt I needed a water pump I would buy a modern unit from Texas T's and use the other for a wheel chock.
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Re: HELP!!! SHOULD I USE A WATER PUMP??

Post by John Codman » Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:28 pm

A model T with a good cooling system doesn't need one. Henry built about 15,000,000 of them without the pump, and many are running fine a century later without one. If you want to display a period-correct accessory, do it. otherwise, if your T doesn't cool properly there is an issue with the existing cooling system - most likely a worn out radiator.


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Re: HELP!!! SHOULD I USE A WATER PUMP??

Post by John kuehn » Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:44 pm

A water pump is like a antirattler spring that folks used when the tie bushings were worn. In other words it’s a patch up of other problems.

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Re: HELP!!! SHOULD I USE A WATER PUMP??

Post by RustyFords » Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:00 pm

My T, equipped with a new Berg’s radiator, has been driven regularly in 100 degree + Texas heat with no hint of overheating...not even when sitting still at traffic lights.

No water pump needed.

A water pump is a treatment for symptoms of problems that need to be treated.
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Re: HELP!!! SHOULD I USE A WATER PUMP??

Post by GrandpaFord » Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:37 pm

No. I needed at least 10 characters to publish this so here they are.


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Re: HELP!!! SHOULD I USE A WATER PUMP??

Post by Been Here Before » Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:44 pm

"In other words it’s a patch up of other problems."

This advice would be true for using a distributor, a ECCT, using an I-Timer. and a list of stuff to make the T better.

For me, the radiator is kept clean and open. Flush every two years. No Bar's Leak when there is a leak. And I still use a water pump with never an over heating problem. As for coolant, straight permanent antifreeze, no water. The green stuff. Yep - against what every one says.

I believe it is part of a process call maintenance.

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Re: HELP!!! SHOULD I USE A WATER PUMP??

Post by TWrenn » Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:18 pm

Running pure antifreeze is NOT a good idea. Just google it.
But, like everyone says, "it's your car, do what you want with it".


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Re: HELP!!! SHOULD I USE A WATER PUMP??

Post by Craig Leach » Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:29 pm

Hi Jonah,
Not sure where it is you live. But here's the situation where I live. The water acidity is slightly less than battery acid, creates scale and rust on a level uncomon to most. today it was 110 degrees. I have come up with a way to fill blocks & heads with Zepp calcium, rust & lime remover to soak for day's to clean them out. Many radiators are junk because of this & recoring them with modern cores ( some times with very small tubes ) can make thermosiphon to slow to keep up with adverse conditions. I have seen engines destroyed because of over heating with & without water pumps & seen engines destroyed because of water pumps that leaked or seazed up. I run them on all my T engines but do not have a stock radiator core in one of them. Thats my 2 cents. So Steve how much do you want for the wheel chauck. Codman not all T's did not have a water pump just most of them. :)


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Re: HELP!!! SHOULD I USE A WATER PUMP??

Post by Loftfield » Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:15 am

I am not a complete anal-retentive purist, but I do like my cars to at least look original, and I avoid all the electronic gadgets that just couldn't have been there initially. It is just my attitude, but if you want a Model T to act like a modern car then just get a more modern "old" car. My brother can't handle all the Model T "issues", drives a 1968 Chevelle with engine and chrome exploding out from under the hood. I have several "original" water pumps, keep them on static display in the history garage. My T's run just fine without the add-ons. I got in trouble with a water pump on a 1912 T. Some previous owner had installed a water pump. When the car first came to me I thought I'd give it a drive to see how the water pump worked. Alas, they had also installed a thermostat behind the engine water outlet (to help with the under-heating problem referenced in a post above), which item had frozen solid and of which I was totally unaware. With no water actually circulating, the exhaust valves soon burned, manifold cherry red hot. I am still working on re-doing those valves, immediately removed the thermostat and water pump, curses!


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Re: HELP!!! SHOULD I USE A WATER PUMP??

Post by Been Here Before » Fri Sep 18, 2020 9:38 am

So here is a question for the experts.

Over time a cooling system will have scale form. If the scale is not in constant circulation, moving through the system, it will build up in the radiator and in constricted places in the motor block. This causes over heating.

If the owner does not flush out the cooling system, regularly, the scale continues to build.

Which system, a Model T with out a water pump or one with a water pump, will needed to be flushed more often? Which system will keep the scale in motion better?

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Re: HELP!!! SHOULD I USE A WATER PUMP??

Post by Steve Jelf » Fri Sep 18, 2020 10:00 am

Which system, a Model T with out a water pump or one with a water pump, will needed to be flushed more often? Which system will keep the scale in motion better?

It doesn't matter. Use distilled water 50/50 with antifreeze to prevent scale and rust, and flush biennially.
The inevitable often happens.
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Re: HELP!!! SHOULD I USE A WATER PUMP??

Post by RustyFords » Fri Sep 18, 2020 10:59 am

Steve Jelf wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 10:00 am
Which system, a Model T with out a water pump or one with a water pump, will needed to be flushed more often? Which system will keep the scale in motion better?
It doesn't matter. Use distilled water 50/50 with antifreeze to prevent scale and rust, and flush biennially.
Ding, ding, ding....correct answer.
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Re: HELP!!! SHOULD I USE A WATER PUMP??

Post by bud delong » Sat Sep 19, 2020 8:01 am

I think there are too many questions to write anything in stone!!Bud :D

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Re: HELP!!! SHOULD I USE A WATER PUMP??

Post by thom » Sat Sep 19, 2020 8:58 am

20 responses to your question and you didn't get scolded. I'm surprised. Water pumps tend to be a "heated" topic, almost like religion or politics, it seems, among T people. Our '21 Touring has a water pump on it that the previous owner had installed and I left it on.
Personally, I don't think I would go to the expense and trouble to put one on a T that didn't already have one because like some have said they are obviously not necessary, but until mine starts leaking I won't go to the expense and trouble to remove it. To do so would require an inlet, a different hose, and a shorter belt.


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Re: HELP!!! SHOULD I USE A WATER PUMP??

Post by John Codman » Sat Sep 19, 2020 9:44 am

I agree with those who say that straight antifreeze should not be used in any engine. It sounds counter-intuitive, but straight antifreeze does not transfer heat as well as a 50/50 mixture of antifreeze and water. It also freezes at a higher temperature than that same 50/50 mixture. Straight antifreeze also does not carry in suspension the various chemicals that prevent rust.


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Re: HELP!!! SHOULD I USE A WATER PUMP??

Post by Been Here Before » Sat Sep 19, 2020 11:03 am

Another consideration for antifreeze.
ISFI 2008 International Symposium on Fire Investigation Science and Technology
ANALYSIS OF ETHYLENE GLYCOL-BASED
ENGINE COOLANT AS A VEHICLE FIRE FUEL

CONCLUSIONS
The test data concerning ethylene glycol engine coolants and the associated analysis
presented in this paper has the following implications for the vehicle fire investigator:
1. Ethylene glycol coolants will not auto-ignite on the metal surfaces in a motor
vehicle and cause a vehicle fire, except under very specific and unlikely
conditions.
2. Ethylene glycol coolants released into an engine compartment will likely contain
a percentage of water.
3. Water in ethylene glycol coolant inhibits ignition and combustion of the coolant.
4. In order to ignite ethylene glycol and water mixtures, the majority of the water
must first be evaporated from the mixture.
5. In order to ignite ethylene glycol, it must first be located where it is pocketed and
heated sufficiently to establish a vapor plume with a air-fuel mixture within the
upper and lower flammability limits of the vapor in essentially static air flow
conditions.
6. In order to ignite ethylene glycol, an adequate piloted ignition mechanism must
be located within the vapor plume above a heated pocket of liquid ethylene
glycol, in essentially static air flow conditions.
7. In order for ethylene glycol engine coolant to be the first fuel in a vehicle fire, the
conditions listed in items 5 and 6 above must be present, and the burning plume
of ethylene glycol vapors must be located such that nearby combustibles are
ignited and that they continue to burn.
8. Malfunction of the engine or extended heavy overloading of the engine prior to
the release of engine coolant could lead to the coolant having a lower
concentration of water when it is released. It is, however, very likely that the
coolant will continue to contain sufficient water to inhibit ignition or combustion
of the coolant.
9. There is a very low probability that engine coolant released in a motor vehicle
will find a place to be pocketed and heated, and then for a vapor plume to
develop above the pocket, and that location to also have an electric arc sufficient
to ignite the vapor plume in a static air flow location.
10. Based on available information, an electrolysis ethylene glycol reaction is
considered to not be a viable ignition mechanism in motor vehicle fires.

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Re: HELP!!! SHOULD I USE A WATER PUMP??

Post by TRDxB2 » Sat Sep 19, 2020 11:26 am

Why do they call it "Anti-freeze"? By definition "Antifreeze is an additive which lowers the freezing point of a water-based liquid. ... The purpose of antifreeze is to prevent a rigid enclosure from bursting due to expansion when water freezes." It also has additional properties to raise the boiling point of the engine coolant, provide additives to prevent rust/corrosion and lubrication to modern water pumps. Over the years the term "Engine Coolant" has been used interchangeably with "Antifreeze" but the small print still says its antifreeze. The ratio of antifreeze to distilled water (another discussion) should be determined by the lowest temperature to prevent freezing. The upper limit attained then is the result and not the target for the ratio. Raising the boiling point of the coolant is intended to eliminate steam pockets in the cooling system cavities.
Consider this - how hot do you want your engine to get before it puffs steam. 300 degrees?
While raising the boiling point of the cooling system is good for when it reaches a higher temperature, it should not be used as a band-aid for a lack of cooling. Most cars are designed to run 175-205°F coolant temps, with the ideal number being right around 185°F. Don't forget that proper engine lubrication and engine tuning are also key to a cooler running engine.


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Re: HELP!!! SHOULD I USE A WATER PUMP??

Post by Been Here Before » Sat Sep 19, 2020 11:47 am

So if you use a "waterless product" or waterless coolant, isn't that a form of alcohol or permanent antifreeze?


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Re: HELP!!! SHOULD I USE A WATER PUMP??

Post by jiminbartow » Sat Sep 19, 2020 4:02 pm

Ford tried installing water pumps on early Model T’s but shortly discontinued them and never used them again during the Model T years.

The Model T Thermo-siphon system is designed to operate efficiently without a water pump as it depends on convection and the natural reaction of water to heat (rises) and cold (sinks), to maintain the balance between hot water and cooled water and the speed of the circulating water. As the water heats up in the engine block water jacket, the hot water rises into the water outlet and flows into the radiator. As the water flows down through the tubes of the radiator, it is cooled by the air air passing between the tubes and over the fins by the forward motion of the car and pulled in by the fan (which also somewhat cools the engine by blowing hot air out of the engine compartment and pulling cool air in). By the time the water reaches the bottom of the radiator, it is cool enough to flow into the water inlet and back up into the water jacket through the water inlet on the side of the water jacket. It is a delicate balance that was a stroke of genius on the part of Ford engineers and Henry Ford himself who was a mechanical genius in his own right and in the early years, enjoyed rolling up his sleeves and getting greasy. Ford’s son, Edsel was a 16 year old teenager during the development of the Model T and also a mechanical genius and, like his father, enjoyed working with his Dad. They were close at this time.

Ford discovered early on that this balance was upset by a water pump which forces the water through the system without allowing the water to remain in the radiator long enough to do its’s job of cooling the water, thereby basically circulating hotter and hotter water through the engine, depending on the outside temperature, the traffic and the driving conditions.

If the thermo-siphon system does not work efficiently in your car, you probably need to either have your radiator flushed of the buildup in the tubes or get a new radiator, but, to me, a water pump is never the way to go. But that is only my opinion. There are those here that swear by them and that is their opinion and I respect them no less for it. The purpose of the forum is to hopefully, introduce all sides of an issue and allow the Model T owner to weigh each option and choose for himself.

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Last edited by jiminbartow on Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:23 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: HELP!!! SHOULD I USE A WATER PUMP??

Post by Duey_C » Sun Sep 20, 2020 12:09 am

One here has a pump just like Steve's wheel chock. I like that type of pump. :)
Doesn't move much water and allows the natural water movement to happen too. Just a two blade impeller.
I didn't have an inlet elbow when this one was put together so I re-packed the gland nut, made gaskets and put it on.
Original rad that's been baking soda cooked out for the scale. Voila!
NEVER any problems parading with both "ears up" but maybe as it's worn completely out, it naturally stays cooler...
And he warned OK up one December evening we drove him out on the lake to take a battery to son's fish house.
Another here was VERY fresh up top (pistons, rings & valves) and couldn't handle the heat without a pump so I put one on. Voila!
It's ready to "go solo" now after some run-in time. Still knocks like a door tho.
Lucky in my avatar never had one, didn't need it and'll likely never have one.
Neutral in this respect.
Give your T what it needs. It's all rewards after that. :)
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Re: HELP!!! SHOULD I USE A WATER PUMP??

Post by AdminJeff » Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:52 pm

My water pump was one of the first things I removed when I first got my car and threw into the trash can. Car immediately ran cooler. Of course, Your mileage may vary...

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Re: HELP!!! SHOULD I USE A WATER PUMP??

Post by RustyFords » Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:05 am

For what it's worth....

My job takes me into petroleum refinery labs quite often, several of which have their own water purifiers. For ASTM testing purposes, they need water that is purer than the distilled water sold in stores. The purity of this ASTM water is mearured in conductivity....less suspended ions in the water, less conductivity.

When I fill a radiator on one of my antiques, the good folks in the lab let me fill a few gallon jugs with some of this water. Funny thing is...just transporting it in the plastic jugs introduces enough contamination to make it no longer viable for testing but it's still dramatic overkill for automotive radiator usage.

But it makes me feel edgy....like I'm an evil lab scientist, or some such thing. A guy with a life as boring as mine has to find excitement wherever he can.
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Re: HELP!!! SHOULD I USE A WATER PUMP??

Post by 2nighthawks » Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:19 pm

This is all "personal opinion" so take it for what it's worth. My first Model T (stock engine) had a water pump on it when I bought the car in 1978. I took the water pump off and noticed no difference in the running or cooling of the engine. Just an occasional "gurgle" from the radiator after shutting engine off, which is normal. After many years of following this forum, here is what I've "personally" decided:

I really do think that some type of water pump is necessary when a Model T engine is used for stationary power. However, as far as for conventional usage in stock Model T cars, and perhaps a bit more so with overhead valve speedsters that develop more power, it seems like on this forum, there are pretty much four (4) opinions of Model T accessory water pumps. There are some that seem to work fairly well, and some that somewhat work, and some that just barely work, and some that don't work at all! The problem is in knowing which ones actually "DO" work! I truly believe that most were made just merely because there really were Model T's that had overheating problems, probably due to radiator malfunction, and because this type of overheating was common, the sales of accessory water pumps was very profitable, whether they worked or not. Again, just my opinion FWIW,.....harold

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Re: HELP!!! SHOULD I USE A WATER PUMP??

Post by VowellArt » Thu Sep 24, 2020 6:01 pm

Anti-Freeze, does diddly squat in non-pressurized engine (like the Model T), since it is designed for exclusive use in pressurized cooling systems, like in modern cars. What it does do (besides being a class 3 pollutant) is keep rust build up down and keep the engines cooling system from freezing in winter...maybe.

If you want something that will cool your non-pressurized system, use soluble oil (better known as machining fluid), it's used in machine shops to keep the heat down on their drill bit and cutters, so guess what else it will work on? Your engine. It reduces heat build up better than any anti-freeze and it prohibits rust (even using plain tap water) and it's not a pollutant and it won't freeze in anything above 0º C.
Juice.jpg
Juice.jpg (24.67 KiB) Viewed 676 times
The stuff you want looks sort of like lemonade and when you add the water to it looks like milky lemonade, you can get it at Graingers, it is a bit costly, but then you'll not have to change it too bloody often either (if you ever have to work on you engine or radiator, just drain the radiator, filter the mix and pour it back in when you reassemble) and it works better than any of those after market gizmo water pumps, since it is specifically designed to cool non-pressurized systems, like Model T.
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Re: HELP!!! SHOULD I USE A WATER PUMP??

Post by Stephen_heatherly » Thu Sep 24, 2020 6:05 pm

If your radiator is good and the block is clean a water pump is completely unnecessary. I have driven my 26 coupe up a 12% grade in low gear in 110 degree weather without any overheating issues. All water pumps on a T do is leak and cause aggravation. Keeping a T simple is the best thing you can do to insure reliability.

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Re: HELP!!! SHOULD I USE A WATER PUMP??

Post by J1MGOLDEN » Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:27 pm

The real problem is it takes 3 or 4 horsepower to operate it and you only have about 20 hp, with none to waste or share.

The next problem is it will leak around the shaft and when the nut is tight enough so the leak is stopped the shaft will not turn.

The next problem is the belt usually comes off the pulley.

If a Model T needed a water pump, Henry Ford would have left it on after the first 2,500 Model Ts were made.

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Re: HELP!!! SHOULD I USE A WATER PUMP??

Post by TRDxB2 » Fri Sep 25, 2020 12:34 am

J1MGOLDEN wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:27 pm
The real problem is it takes 3 or 4 horsepower to operate it and you only have about 20 hp, with none to waste or share.

The next problem is it will leak around the shaft and when the nut is tight enough so the leak is stopped the shaft will not turn.

The next problem is the belt usually comes off the pulley.

If a Model T needed a water pump, Henry Ford would have left it on after the first 2,500 Model Ts were made.
He did
Attachments
Model N.jpg


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Jonah D'Avella
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Re: HELP!!! SHOULD I USE A WATER PUMP??

Post by Jonah D'Avella » Fri Sep 25, 2020 9:38 am

Wow!!!!!!!
F: first F: find
O: on O: oil
R: race R: revive
D: day D: drive


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Re: HELP!!! SHOULD I USE A WATER PUMP??

Post by big2bird » Fri Sep 25, 2020 10:21 am

jiminbartow wrote:
Sat Sep 19, 2020 4:02 pm


Ford discovered early on that this balance was upset by a water pump which forces the water through the system without allowing the water to remain in the radiator long enough to do its’s job of cooling the water, thereby basically circulating hotter and hotter water through the engine, depending on the outside temperature, the traffic and the driving conditions.
The longer the coolant is in the radiator, the longer it is in the water jackets heating up.
Increasing the flow rate decreases hot spots, and the coolant still spends equal time cooling and heating.
I would imagine increased temperature with a pump is more caused by the added parasitic hp loss of the pump itself.


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Re: HELP!!! SHOULD I USE A WATER PUMP??

Post by Been Here Before » Fri Sep 25, 2020 10:39 am

Maybe this should be a separate topic, but if a water pump takes 3 to 4 horse power to turn. How much in horse power could be gained by removing the magneto/magnets and use a distributor or conventional magneto?

From the literature of the period, it was about 1921/1922 the water pump was being offered in advertising to Ford owners as a way to have the Ford run without over heating.

Guess that from late 1908 to the 1920's the owners were not caring for the cooling system, the sludge was not being circulated, and it began to clog the cooling system, creating a need for the water pump as accessory.

Granted the thermo system works, it did save Henry money by not adding a water pump. Only the cheap inexpensive car manufactures found ways to cut cost.

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Re: HELP!!! SHOULD I USE A WATER PUMP??

Post by TRDxB2 » Fri Sep 25, 2020 12:07 pm

Been Here Before wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 10:39 am
Maybe this should be a separate topic, but if a water pump takes 3 to 4 horse power to turn. How much in horse power could be gained by removing the magneto/magnets and use a distributor or conventional magneto?
Go Idea I'm started a thread found an interesting article on the INTERNET about engines and rotating mass and the resulting effects on horse power on acceleration. https://mtfca.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=15929
Last edited by TRDxB2 on Fri Sep 25, 2020 3:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: HELP!!! SHOULD I USE A WATER PUMP??

Post by Mark Gregush » Fri Sep 25, 2020 12:23 pm

I have read in the past that using distilled or pure water with a neutral PH, it will leach from the surrounding metal till it reaches a PH in balance with it's surroundings. So any deposits on the inside will contaminate the liquid. Which may or may not be a good thing. ;)
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :shock:

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Re: HELP!!! SHOULD I USE A WATER PUMP??

Post by J1MGOLDEN » Fri Sep 25, 2020 12:31 pm

Then too, those people running the Montana 500 put a restriction in the engine to radiator hose to slow the water flow and give the radiator more time to remove the heat.

I have not tried that yet, but it is reported as a functional improvement.

I have removed the water pump from every Model T I have owned with no ill effects.

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Re: HELP!!! SHOULD I USE A WATER PUMP??

Post by TRDxB2 » Fri Sep 25, 2020 3:48 pm

J1MGOLDEN wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 12:31 pm
Then too, those people running the Montana 500 put a restriction in the engine to radiator hose to slow the water flow and give the radiator more time to remove the heat.
Sounds like a thermostat wonder if 180 degrees?
Here are MONTANA 500 rules wonder how many of you could comply
http://antiqueautoranch.com/montana500/ ... 9rules.pdf
Two related to this topic
C4. Rebuilt or new radiators allowed. Must be built to stock dimensions including tanks and side brackets
D1. Optional equipment must serve the original purpose and no other purpose.
D2. Optional equipment includes:
-“V” type belt and pulleys
- Water pump design and use


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Re: HELP!!! SHOULD I USE A WATER PUMP??

Post by J1MGOLDEN » Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:28 am

Here are the flat belts that Gates still makes.

Part # Product # Description Top Width(in) Top Width(mm) Effective Length (in) Effective Length (mm) Notched Outside Circumference (in) Outside Circumference (mm) Section
811 87800811 811 VINTAGE BELT 1.13 29 22.5 572 false 23.03 585 FLAT
813 87800813 813 VINTAGE BELT 1.13 29 26.75 679 false 27.28 693 FLAT
814 87800814 814 VINTAGE BELT 1.13 29 31.5 800 false 32.03 814 FLAT
822 87800822 822 VINTAGE BELT 1 25 36 914

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Re: HELP!!! SHOULD I USE A WATER PUMP??

Post by Charlie B in N.J. » Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:37 am

My last T, a '23 Touring, had a water pump on it. The former owner basically drove it in local parades and he said it stopped overheating after it was recommended to him. Dicey radiator? maybe but I didn't fix what wasn't broken and it stayed.
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Re: HELP!!! SHOULD I USE A WATER PUMP??

Post by John Codman » Mon Sep 28, 2020 11:37 am

To JMGolden - Back when the world had corners and I along with several friends was involved in racing a Ford flathead V8 stock car. The cooling system
gave us fits. Someone said that they thought the coolant was flowing through the radiator too fast (we didn't run thermostats. What we ultimately did to solve the problem was to remove every second fin from the water pumps. The 255-inch flathead never overheated again.

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Re: HELP!!! SHOULD I USE A WATER PUMP??

Post by John Warren » Tue Sep 29, 2020 6:16 pm

I like the way Steve uses the water pump. Very effective that way. I don't run a water pump on my model A either. John, good info on the v8. Dad had the same problem.
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Re: HELP!!! SHOULD I USE A WATER PUMP??

Post by Been Here Before » Tue Sep 29, 2020 7:38 pm

May be the question of having a water pump on a Model T Ford was answered in the Ford Times May 15, 1909? That date issued in the use of the Gravity or Thermo-syphon system for a Model T Ford.

According to the author, writing for Henry, he made the statement that the cooling with a water pump was regulated by the speed of the motor. The faster the motor turned the faster the water moved with a pump. With a thermo system the heat of the motor regulated the cooling of the engine. The thermo system takes into account the weather (atmospheric pressure) On a hot day the cooling system water moves faster than on a cool day.

Let it be noted, that when the Model T was introduced in 1908 (15 October) Henry's ad department listed 44 Model T Talking Points. Two points on cooling included that the engine was cooled by a gear driven centrifugal pump and a gear driven Fan. Meaning that there were no belts to slip.

By 1915, Ford in the Ford Times carried an advertisement in their pages on the benefits of an add on an aftermarket water pump to aid in the cooling of a Model T Ford motor. The pump was manufactured in Pittsburgh, site of a Ford assembly division and parts warehouse. Now if the Thermo sysyem was efficient, why allow an in house publication be allowed for something that was removed in 1908?

By 1920 the Automobile Journal provided information for an " Efficient Water Circulator for Ford Engine is easily Made." Why such an article in 1920, 12 years after the introduction of the Thermo or gravity system in the Ford? The authors state "More than one case of engine trouble in the Ford Car may be traced to sluggish water circulation. The water in the thermo-syphon system of water circulation is never in as rapid motion as in engines equipped with a water pump."

Most likely Henry wanted to make a inexpensive car. The addition of the pump was an added cost.

If you have a pump use it. If you are worried about authenticity, well, what other aftermarket stuff should you remove from a car that Henry wrought?


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Re: HELP!!! SHOULD I USE A WATER PUMP??

Post by big2bird » Wed Sep 30, 2020 6:50 am

I will just toss this in the mix, and drop this subject.
https://www.stewartcomponents.com/index ... tion_id=11


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Re: HELP!!! SHOULD I USE A WATER PUMP??

Post by Been Here Before » Wed Sep 30, 2020 10:09 am

At one time as a daily driver I had a MG-1100 with a 1098 cc engine. In the summer the thermostat was removed an a water restrictor was used in place of the thermostat. No cooling issues. Attached current examples of coolant restrictors.

With a Thermo system thermostats and restrictors are not needed.

As I use a water pump, I do not use a thermostat or a coolant restrictor, with no problems.
916405_L_f6ed40d2-ee94-4efc-9859-7f3c1956494c.jpg
916405_L_f6ed40d2-ee94-4efc-9859-7f3c1956494c.jpg (31.58 KiB) Viewed 270 times
91716582_L_c335f784-7d60-485d-8e47-582cad9ffe61.jpg
91716582_L_c335f784-7d60-485d-8e47-582cad9ffe61.jpg (35.24 KiB) Viewed 270 times

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