Rebuilding Cast Iron Warford

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Matt in California
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Rebuilding Cast Iron Warford

Post by Matt in California » Wed Feb 27, 2019 11:23 pm

I am looking into rebuilding a Warford transmission. Actually, more of cleaning and inspecting it. Could someone direct me to a manual or online reference?

I ran into problems when I tried to uninstall the nut on the shaft. I can’t seem to get it loose.

Thanks Matt!


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Re: Rebuilding Cast Iron Warford

Post by SurfCityGene » Thu Feb 28, 2019 2:05 pm

Hi Matt,
California is a big state. Are you anywhere in SoCal?
I'm familiar with the alum Warfords. You'll have to be a bit more specific about which nut. Google Warford with MTFCA and you'll find quite a few links and some parts diagrams that might help ya. I haven't seen a Warford Manual. I question your need to disassemble the unit just for cleaning. There is quite a bit of adjustment of the bearing preload that must be done during assembly. A pretty good inspection can be done while it is in one unit after you get it all cleaned up.
Good Luck, You'll love the Warford, Especially an alum one if you ever find a good used one grab it.
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Matt in California
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Re: Rebuilding Cast Iron Warford

Post by Matt in California » Thu Feb 28, 2019 5:14 pm

Gene,
Thanks for your feedback. (I will PM you soon.) I am a bit surprised there is not a repair manual out there (that you know of). I am curious why you prefer the aluminum Warford. I understand that the cast iron was preferred because of replacement parts are available. For me I got the cast iron because I plan to use the PTO function.

At your advice I found the following online:
Warford instruction manual: http://modeltfordspeedster.blogspot.com/2010/

MTFCA discussion including diagrams and bearing part numbers: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/82 ... 1543668263

I will keep you posted as I move forward.

Thanks!
Matt


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Re: Rebuilding Cast Iron Warford

Post by SurfCityGene » Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:23 pm

My preference for the aluminum is mostly the weight advantage. I'm not sure about your assumption of more cast iron parts available? I think there were more Alum ones manufactured and several parts are available but some sort of pricey IMHO. I've always got my eye open at swap meets for any Warford parts and have a spare one at home in the shop.

Yes, if your wanting the PTO function then the CI one is the way to go. I had not seen that installation manual that you posted a link to.

Thanks
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Re: Rebuilding Cast Iron Warford

Post by Matt in California » Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:08 am

Thanks Gene!

Here are some photos:
Attachments
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394921C9-2CB8-486A-B41F-3C9AF6E5BCA4.jpeg
8080F8FF-BEC8-44F8-A8E5-3A092DCBA4D9.jpeg
4E756E20-9D01-485E-AF88-4AB51258EC4A.jpeg

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Mark Gregush
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Re: Rebuilding Cast Iron Warford

Post by Mark Gregush » Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:38 am

Which nut are you talking about? The one in back, you have to remove the lock pin before you can turn it out. I used a brass drift to tap it around, turns counter clockwise to remove. The one in front bend up the tabs. We made up some of the tabbed lock washers, contact me via PM and I will get the info to you if you need one.
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :shock:

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Re: Rebuilding Cast Iron Warford

Post by Layden Butler » Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:55 pm

I have seen other requests for period repair manuals for other make cars and components such as rear axles, steering, etc. During the Model T era auto mechanics were expected to use standard mechanic repair and overhaul practices for whatever they were working on. The "Model T Service" manual and "Service Bulletin" are unusual for the times and might lead one to think that other make cars and aftermarket products such as the the Warford would have similar support. Such is not the case and not truly needed as there are no special tools or procedures needed to overhaul a Warford. The current real problem with a Warford is a lack of replacement parts. Usually we must continue to use what we can, replace from another used unit or have repaired or made new.


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Re: Rebuilding Cast Iron Warford

Post by Speedsterguy2 » Fri Mar 01, 2019 6:49 pm

With regards to the note that there were "more aluminum ones manufactured" I offer the following info. I have been trying to assemble a sequence on what production changes were made and when. I have verified aluminum Warford serial numbers as low as #1313, and as high as #75938. For iron Warford serial numbers, I have verified serial numbers as low as #81965, and as high as #161811. The high number is the last model, made and marketed for Model A Ford, so must be somewhere near the end of production.

These seem to suggest they made approx. 76,000 to 81,000 aluminum Warfords, and approx. 81,000 iron Warfords. There is a clean serial number break somewhere between #75938 and #81965: all the numbers below are aluminum and all the numbers above are iron. This seems to document that earlier production was all in aluminum, and was later switched to all in iron.

My data currently includes 36 Warfords. I would be pleased to have info/photos of any additional ones. Serial number is important, specify aluminum or iron, and photos of both sides to show the markings is good. We are also trying to collect gear ratio numbers by asking you to carefully count the number of teeth on the large sliding gear just under the shifter. All we have seen are either 24 teeth or 25 teeth. Thx / Tim

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Re: Rebuilding Cast Iron Warford

Post by Matt in California » Fri Mar 01, 2019 11:37 pm

Mark,
I am referring to the hex nut. I believe it is 1 7/8". Can I assume that it has standard thread direction (CCW to loosen)? Yes, I would like a replacement tab lock washer.

Layden,
I agree that understanding of standard practices of loading taper bearings would go a long way in overhauling a Warford. I found this manual:
https://www.timken.com/wp-content/uploa ... atalog.pdf
I found this chart on page 31 interesting:
Temken preload vs life chart.JPG
Temken preload vs life chart.JPG (20.23 KiB) Viewed 2298 times
It will take a bit to understand the charts on the desired preload. Obviously from the figure above one would want a little bit (.002") of preload to get maximum bearing life. Is this done by just making the nut tight yet axle is spinning freely then measuring endplay? Some applications have torque specs on nut, but I believe that is only if cone (inner race) is held or wedged between by nut getting torqued and some sort of shoulder on axle.

Tim,
This is cast iron #128405B. The shifter base has then number 141170 on it. I need to get more photos of both sides for you next time that I am in the shop.

Matt


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Re: Rebuilding Cast Iron Warford

Post by Speedsterguy2 » Fri Mar 01, 2019 11:56 pm

Hi Matt- Based on the Warfords I have looked over, the serial number on the case should match the serial number on the shift tower. This is true all the way back to the early aluminum case Warfords.

I have looked at several with non-matching numbers on the shift tower, and concluded that the shift tower had been substituted from another transmission. I even have an aluminum case Warford that came with a later cast iron shift tower assembly. It seems to work. I tend to see the case number as indicating where in the production series the transmission was made. The shift assembly is easy to transfer, and I suspect was often done as an easy fix if one of the original shift forks broke off (as they sometimes do)./ Tim

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Matt in California
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Re: Rebuilding Cast Iron Warford

Post by Matt in California » Sun Mar 03, 2019 11:43 pm

Speedsterguy2 wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 11:56 pm
Hi Matt- Based on the Warfords I have looked over, the serial number on the case should match the serial number on the shift tower. . .

I have looked at several with non-matching numbers on the shift tower, and concluded that the shift tower had been substituted from another transmission. . . Tim
Tim,
I agree shift tower must have been switched, but not really a issue.

What are people doing for gaskets? Just making a set from gasket material?

Matt


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Re: Rebuilding Cast Iron Warford

Post by SurfCityGene » Mon Mar 04, 2019 2:45 pm

No gasket needed on top cover. Just clean any oily surface and apply some Permatex ULTRA BLACK for no leaks. You do need the shim spacers on the end cover plates. They set the preload of the bearings.
Looks like that nut with the spider washer may have been dimpled into the keyway for some extra security? If so that's likely cause an issue trying to unscrew it. A little heat may help a lot and you may need to dremel that recessed spot?

Good Luck
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Matt in California
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Re: Rebuilding Cast Iron Warford

Post by Matt in California » Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:48 pm

Gene,
Thanks sir the info in. I will see what I can do to remove the nut.

Tim,
Here are more photos for your reference.
D76DB1B8-90E9-4675-B57B-6D58C2866DF8.jpeg
4A86343F-2CA2-416A-AEDE-CAED48446387.jpeg
63D1243A-ACA2-47A1-975D-E53C14225C79.jpeg
3ABBB287-CD13-4CE4-8124-B869136142F0.jpeg

Matt


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Re: Rebuilding Cast Iron Warford

Post by SurfCityGene » Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:34 pm

Matt,
Do you have the PTO assy for this tranny? I am sure many are wondering what you will do with it? A 4 wheel drive maybe?
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