Speedster: '26-'27 cowl on pre-20's frame

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Tom Stephens
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Speedster: '26-'27 cowl on pre-20's frame

Post by Tom Stephens » Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:39 pm

Is that easily doable, mounting a '26-'27 cowl on pre-20's frame?

Tom


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Re: Speedster: '26-'27 cowl on pre-20's frame

Post by Allan » Sat Mar 09, 2019 5:25 pm

Tom, afaik, all you need do is fit wider frame to body mounts. They can be fabricated or you might be able to get some used ones if somebody has a frame with some that could be salvaged.

Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.


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Re: Speedster: '26-'27 cowl on pre-20's frame

Post by Tom Stephens » Sat Mar 09, 2019 5:42 pm

Thanks Allen. What do you mean by "wider frame". The '26-'27 frames are the same width as the earlier frames.

Tom

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Re: Speedster: '26-'27 cowl on pre-20's frame

Post by DanTreace » Sat Mar 09, 2019 6:01 pm

"Wider" front body mount used on the Improved Car chassis, you will need one for each side to mount the body subframe attachments.


100_0422 (2) (1024x683).jpg
The best way is always the simplest. The attics of the world are cluttered up with complicated failures. Henry Ford
Don’t find fault, find a remedy; anybody can complain. Henry Ford


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Re: Speedster: '26-'27 cowl on pre-20's frame

Post by Tom Stephens » Sat Mar 09, 2019 6:51 pm

Dan,

That's it? Cool!

What other ramifications are there? I assume even with the older frame, I could use the "improved" steering box and column?

Now what about mounting the coil box on the other side of the '26-'27 firewall rather than on the engine... I'd have to drill holes for the coil box terminals, correct?

Tom


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Re: Speedster: '26-'27 cowl on pre-20's frame

Post by Kevin Pharis » Sat Mar 09, 2019 6:55 pm

Been a while since I had my ‘27 roadster... but seems to me that mounting bracket circled in the pic above simply supports the hood sill plate and/or hood latch...?

As for the coil box... yur going to have a he// of a time fitting it and the fuel tank under there


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Re: Speedster: '26-'27 cowl on pre-20's frame

Post by Les Schubert » Sat Mar 09, 2019 7:24 pm

The 26-7 frame is deeper where the steering lower bearing mounts and the holes are located differently. So mounting the 26-7 steering column to a earlier frame is NOT a direct bolt in. Certainly solvable but some work will be involved!!


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Re: Speedster: '26-'27 cowl on pre-20's frame

Post by Tom Stephens » Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:12 pm

Kevin,

Tank will be in the rear.

Les,

Thanks! Is it really beneficial with a speedster to go to the newer steering ratio?

Tom

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Re: Speedster: '26-'27 cowl on pre-20's frame

Post by DanTreace » Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:33 am

Tom

Another photo to show the frame mounts on the '26-'27 frame, as noted the 'wider' mount up front is for the hood clasp as the Improved Car has a bigger hood, and those mounts are needed for the hood shelf so that the wider hood will mate with the cowl. You'll need those wide mounts if running a stock hood.

The other mounts are std. body mounts, but not real sure if the locations are the same on earlier frames.

The late 5:1 steering gears work well with balloon tires, and if you get the whole column that will come with the 'slot' and longer pinion that prevents turning the wheels fully as they can lock, this change in the steering case was done about 1920 or so.


220193 (2) copy 2.jpg
Attachments
289826.jpg
The best way is always the simplest. The attics of the world are cluttered up with complicated failures. Henry Ford
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Re: Speedster: '26-'27 cowl on pre-20's frame

Post by Tom Stephens » Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:07 pm

Dan,

Fabulous pics!!

So let's take these copies of your pics:
220193 (2) copy 2.jpg
220193 (2) copy 2.jpg (86.15 KiB) Viewed 2746 times
289826.jpg
289826.jpg (43.04 KiB) Viewed 2746 times
When you say "the 'wider' mount up front is for the hood clasp", I assume you are referring to the "circled green" in the car photo, not the diagram?
The "circled green" in the diagram is for mounting the front of the front fenders?

Then you say "those mounts are needed for the hood shelf so that the wider hood will mate with the cowl". You mean the rear of the hood, correct?

So if I have this right, the "improved" cowl where it mates up to the hood is still wider at that point than the '24-'25? But the radiators for the '24-'27 are all the same width?

If that is so, why does Rootlieb.com's catalog show all the same size hoods for '17-'27?:
Rootlieb.jpg
Tom


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Re: Speedster: '26-'27 cowl on pre-20's frame

Post by Humblej » Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:53 pm

Tom, the wider brackets at the front frame crossmember that you marked in green are for the 26-27 front fender brace. The 26-27 radiator width is the same as earlier radiators. The 26-27 firewall/cowel is wider than earlier t's so the 26-27 hood is different from the earlier ones. The Rootlib catalog page you posted are hot rod 3 piece hoods, not stock 4 piece hoods. The earlier hood will not for the 26-27 body. You are over thinking this and have received some conflicting advice.

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Re: Speedster: '26-'27 cowl on pre-20's frame

Post by DanTreace » Sun Mar 10, 2019 3:43 pm

As Jeff posted you won't need the front bracket unless you put on 26-27 front fenders.

Assume you are trying to build this one:

Red & Black1 - 1000dpi.jpg
The owner used the Improved Open car body cowl, and likely has coil box on motor as there is no gas tank on the rear so this one uses the cowl tank. If you are going to put a gas tank on the rear, elevate it for gravity feed. Motor mount coil box is best design with sealed lid, or if using other than Ford ignition, that's left off anyway :?

Fenders are Rootleib speedster mounted directly to the frame rail. No hood shelves needed as no hood sides. The hood is two piece hinged upper original Ford, high radiator needed to match hood contour to the cowl/firewall.
The best way is always the simplest. The attics of the world are cluttered up with complicated failures. Henry Ford
Don’t find fault, find a remedy; anybody can complain. Henry Ford


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Re: Speedster: '26-'27 cowl on pre-20's frame

Post by Tom Stephens » Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:17 pm

Jeff & Dan,

Thank you, exactly what I was trying to figure out!

PS. Yes, whoops on the Rootlieb page :)

Tom


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Re: Speedster: '26-'27 cowl on pre-20's frame

Post by Humblej » Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:01 pm

Tom, looking at the chassis dimensions in the ford service bulletins, the body mounting brackets on the frame are in different locations for the 26-27 model t, so it will not be a simple bolt on modification to put a 26-27 cowl on a pre 1926 frame.

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Re: Speedster: '26-'27 cowl on pre-20's frame

Post by Hap_Tucker » Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:58 pm

Tom,

I had typed this up but then closed the internet connection, so it all went away. So this time I’m using my word-processor and it will be shorter.
Summary – it is usually easier to fit the 1915-1925 parts to the 1915-1925 frame and the 1926-27 parts to the 1926-27 frame. The other can be done – but you will run into several areas that will need to be modified to make it work.

One of those areas will be the steering column. The 1926-27 cars (with the exception of the Fordor Sedan). For all but the Fordor sedan the steering column was lowered 3 inches (ref page 383 of Bruce McCalley’s book “Model T Ford.” If you mount the cowl area from the a 1926-27 open car on a 1926-27 chassis – it will all line up correctly. If you use the 1915-1925 style frame (actually 1909-1925) then you will need to figure out the combination to make it work successfully.

Please see the following postings for a discussion of that:
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/24786.html
See the posting below illustrates what happens when you have the incorrect lower steering bracket for a given body style and year. In this case a 1926-27 Fordor lower steering bracket on a 1926-27 open car body.
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/59 ... 1464229856

Note in addition to having the angle of the steering column look nice and fit the dash and frame nicely – you also want to make sure you have the compatible parts in good shape so the steering will NOT go over center.
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/506218/572556.html
Note Royce had an excellent posting on the length of the drag length and tie-rod and the importance of using the correct parts on the cars of different years. At the moment I cannot locate the link for that thread. Again, in general if you use the parts for the year range you have it works not only easier -- but in this case safer.

Additionally, a stock 1926-27 car frame & chassis will give you a 1 ½ inch lower speedster than a stock 1915-1925 chassis. Ref: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/1926-27H.htm
“The “improved” Fords were lower in height than the previous models. This height reduction was accomplished by not only reducing the height of the bodies themselves (except for the Fordor) but also by lowering the frame by a redesign of the front spindles, and a reduction of the crown in the front spring. The rear cross-member had a deeper curve which lowered the chassis somewhat as well. These modifications lowered the chassis height one and one-half inches.”

And below are from Lang's showing the dimensions on the 1924-25 car hood verses the 1926-27 car hood. (Note Lang's uses 1923-1925 -- but the early 1923 cars actually used the same size hood as the 1917-early 1923 cars. The handles were no longer riveted to the hood starting in 1920 but instead were fastened to the hood without a separate rivet -- causing a "hole: to appear where the rivet was on the earlier hoods. (Ref: page 235 of Bruce McCalley's book "Model T Ford.") Note Lang's also sells just the one-piece top hoods for speedsters.

Their part number for the 1924-25 car hood NO114
For the the 1926-27 car hood NO116
For the 1924-25 one piece top NO141-23-25
For the 1926-27 one piece top NO141-26-27

Good luck with your speedster!

Respectfully submitted,
Attachments
1924-25 car and 1924-1927 Ton Truck hood
1924-25 car and 1924-1927 Ton Truck hood
1926-27 car hood
1926-27 car hood
Respectfully submitted,

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Re: Speedster: '26-'27 cowl on pre-20's frame

Post by D.Yoder » Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:40 pm

The 26-26 cowl mount to the 26- 27 sub frame ( metal not wood) the sub frame mount to the body.

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Re: Speedster: '26-'27 cowl on pre-20's frame

Post by D.Yoder » Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:49 pm

The sub frame connects the cowl and body to the frame on 26-27


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Re: Speedster: '26-'27 cowl on pre-20's frame

Post by Tom Stephens » Mon Mar 11, 2019 2:01 am

Wow, guys, way more information than I was expecting and VERY much appreciated... the more the better!!

This is starting to feel like a can of worms. OK, so I already have:

Pre-'26 3" dropped front axle
Front hub conversion with adapters and '26-'27 spindles
Front pre-'26 springs with reversed eye main spring
1920-'21 rear axle and driveshaft
Rear hub conversion with adapters and small brake drums
'15-'16 frame
Rear pre-'26 springs
Lowering the rear is another subject, but my choices would be a 2" raised rear crossmember plus perhaps a reversed eye main spring
I'll be using a '24 and later radiator. And those same fenders in the photos

My point being, I'm very happy with all the parts I already have and so would like to use what I have, and get a '26-'27 cowl so my speedster would look like the one above. I don't mind relocating brackets and such on my earlier frame, but could it be easier if I just picked up a '26-'27 frame?

Tom


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Re: Speedster: '26-'27 cowl on pre-20's frame

Post by Mindless Automaton » Mon Mar 11, 2019 2:48 am

I've done this. It wasn't as hard as people make out.

All I did was set the body on the frame where i wanted it, rivet some 6 MM steel to the subrails that met up with the original body mounts on the frame. And you may have to make some angle iron mounts where the firewall meets the frame, I did that because I didn't have originals, but I doubt they changed much over the years.

Join the subrails to the cowls rails. Job done.


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Re: Speedster: '26-'27 cowl on pre-20's frame

Post by Humblej » Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:02 am

Tom, yes, a 26-27 frame would simplify things.


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Re: Speedster: '26-'27 cowl on pre-20's frame

Post by Tom Stephens » Mon Mar 11, 2019 5:13 pm

Dean,

I just got it through my head what the sub frame is, thanks!

Thanks Kep & Jeff.

Tom

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Re: Speedster: '26-'27 cowl on pre-20's frame

Post by Hap_Tucker » Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:53 pm

Rather than just guessing and possibly giving Tom the wrong answer, I thought I would add his question here. In an e-mail he asked, " ...about the front (radiator side) measurements for
those 2 hoods. Why is the radiator side on the '24-'25 13 1/2" vs the
'26-'27 14 1/4" when both can use the same radiator?"

Note he is asking about the front of the hood which is 3/4 inches longer on the side panel than the 1924-25 hood. And the top front of the hood is also 1/8 inches longer. [Side note the rear panel edge is also 3/4 inch longer -- but that one should be due to the larger cowl on the 1926-27 cars].

Reposted from above -- from Lang's catalog:
1924-1925 car hood and 1924-27 Ton Truck
1924-1925 car hood and 1924-27 Ton Truck
1926-27 car hood
1926-27 car hood
Tom correctly points out the the 1924-1927 cars use the same radiator. And the nickle radiator shell is listed in the Price List of Parts from 1925-1927 as the same part number.

So far the only item I have found that is listed differently is the stud that the radiator mounts to. A scan from Bruce's Comprehensive Encyclopedia is shown below. For any commercial use -- please contact Barbara McCalley or to order a copy of the excellent 2 CD disc material see the posting at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/822076/844722.html
Bruce McCalley - Price List of Parts
Bruce McCalley - Price List of Parts
You can see that the 1926-27 stud has a different part number 3929B2 and Factory Number (Drawing number) 1162C than the 1920-1925 stud which has part number 3929B and Factory Number 1162B.

Unfortunately the length of the stud is NOT listed. However in Lang's Old Car Parts 2019 catalog they have the illustration shown below:
Lang's Old Car Parts
Lang's Old Car Parts
"IF" the photo shows the two studs at the approximate scale, then perhaps that extra length on the hood is due in part to the extra height the radiator is mounted?

But I don't have an "Improved Car" to check out that theory/guess. So if someone who has both a 1924-25 and a 1926-27 could check why the hood panel is 3/4 inch longer in the front that would be greatly appreciated. Or if someone knows the answer and doesn't have one of those cars to compare -- that would be great also.

Note -- "IF" it is the radiator studs that cause all or most of that 3/4 difference -- then using the 1920-25 studs to mount a radiator on a 1926-27 car may throw the hood alignment off. Again -- this would be another time when using the parts from the same year range usually makes assembling the car easier.

Respectfully submitted,

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Respectfully submitted,

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Re: Speedster: '26-'27 cowl on pre-20's frame

Post by Kevin Pharis » Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:30 pm

My rememberer is telling me...

The frame rails on the 26-27 are thicker gage, and the front crossmember may be attached differently, other than that... I don’t see any reason for the longer radiator mounting hardware. The only additional part in 26, is the lower radiator apron.

The dimensions along the front edge of the hood are different due to the 26-27 radiator shell being tapered outward to better align with the hood shape. The 25 and earlier radiator shell sides are perpendicular to the front face. Same radiator, with the addition of the upper extensions to hold the upper mounting screws. Approximately 3/8” wider per side


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Re: Speedster: '26-'27 cowl on pre-20's frame

Post by Dollisdad » Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:35 am

Thought I should chime in here. The fenders, aprons and boards are 10-11 torpedo. Your 15 frame is perfect for this project for the following reasons. The front crossmember does not need to have the ears trimmed, as well as already having the 3 holes in place for the front fender iron to bolt to the side of the frame. The torpedo fender requires the forged type fender iron, not the pressed steel 26-27 type. The running board brackets on a 26-27 frame all need to be relocated to work with earlier fender patterns. Your 15 frame only requires the rear r/b bracket be moved ahead till the brackets are 17 3/8” center to center. We have rear double arm fender irons (butterfly irons) that mount into the later style crossmember (either stock or dropped) to complete the mounting proscess of torpedo fenders to a mid year frame. My suggestion to set things up would be to set the frame up on horses and mount your radiator and shell. Then fit the front fenders, as the fender flange needs to be behind the radiator and following the inside edge of the frame going back. Then you can trial fit the 27 cowl and see where it locates and what needs to be done to mount it. If you work from front to back it seems to work better getting things to fit. Any questions let me know. Good luck.


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Re: Speedster: '26-'27 cowl on pre-20's frame

Post by Tom Stephens » Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:42 pm

Tom,

VERY encouraging, that sounds like it will work very well. I appreciate you taking the time to detail what I need to do with my '15 frame.

Please check your email.

Thanks!

Tom


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Re: Speedster: '26-'27 cowl on pre-20's frame

Post by Tom Stephens » Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:09 pm

Hap,

Thanks for the write-up re: the search for the correct measurements. I hope we get more replies.

PS. Thanks Kevin.

Tom

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