Left hand thread vs right hand thread on front hubs

[WillsT]

Still new to this hobby.
Just finished regreasing my front wheel bearings.
Went for a test ride today and right front threaded center hub which holds on my wire wheels had loosened up after about 4-5 miles
Fortunately I stopped before it came off completely. I had used a 5 pound sledge hammer on a 1 foot long wrench to tighten the front wheels so I was surprised this happened
The right side hub uses right hand thread while the left side uses left hand thread
This is the way my T came to me but should they be reversed left to right side.
Or do I need a 10 pound sledge and a big application of lock tight.
Appreciate your recommendation.

[Scott_Conger]

WAY too much effort used to tighten things

Where are your cotter pins? Cotterpinned castle nuts cannot come off.

You or your predecessor may have sheared off the cotter pins such that the spindles look like they're solid. They are not. They are drilled for cotter pins.

[KBurket]

Driver side (USA) of car is left side. Left side has right hand threads, right side has left hand threads.
Sounds like maybe your spindles are reversed?

[Craig Leach]

Hi Will,
You should not have to use a sledge to secure the bearing on the spindle. the threads should be RH on the left & left hand on the Right so that the bearing will not tighten up going forward but lock against the nut, tabbed washer & cotter pin. Modern spindles that do not have treaded bearings and are right hand thread and rely on the cotter pin & tabbed washer to hold the bearing adjustment. Half of the T's I have worked on have the spindles on the wrong side?
Craig.

[Alan Long]

Please don’t get hung up on Drivers side, passengers side, LH Drive, RH Drive, northern or Southern Hemisphere! It’s
Left hand thread on the right hand side of the vehicle
Right hand thread on the left hand side of the vehicle

Agree with the others, where are the Split Pins (Cotter) and anti rotational Flat Washer between the Bearing and Castle Nut.

Cheers Alan in Western Australia

[A Whiteman]

The lock washer has a tab on the inside (hole) of the washer. This slots into the groove on the spindle so the washer cannot spin.

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assembly order: bearing / lock washer / castle nut / cotter pin/hub cap.

Jack up axle, spin wheel, keep tightening the (xx castle xx) nut on the end of the bearing until the wheel is firm but free spinning, no "in and out" movement on the spindle, then tighten the castle nut until you can fit the cotter pin in.

Sometimes, you may need to pack out the castle nut with a thin washer between the lock washer and the castle nut to be sure the cotter pin is snogged into a castle nut slot..

Glad to have you in the hobby and DON'T Worry! we ALL have gotten things a bit wrong - that's the beauty of the forum and the club branches, they are here to help.

I would recommend getting copies of the club booklets on maintenance and repair of each part of the car - they will explain set up of each part - including the steering/ camber/ linkages.

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[Kerry]

Adrian, what you are describing is as most cars are but the T outer bearing cone is threaded and the castle nut is a lock nut + cotter.

[Philip]

You should stop driving until you understand how spindles work
Any mechanic should be able to help you.

[Humblej]

I will paraphrase the left hand/right hand answer. The bearings are threaded as if to loosen when driving, or to unscrew while driving. If you rotate the wheel as if driving forward will the bearing and nut tighten or loosen? If they were to tighten while driving forward they will lock up and seize. The toothed washer, nut and cotter pin will prevent the bearing from actually loosening or coming off, they will not, however, prevent the bearing from tightening up if the spindles are on the wrong side of the car.

If your spindles are reversed you may have other issues too. Look at your spring perches and see if the little center nub is offset to the front or offset to the rear. It should be offset to the rear to give the correct steering and tracking.

[Tim Rogers]

Your car is NOT safe to drive...

[AndreFordT]

here an other drawing from Vowell art that explain the right and left thread.

Good luck
Andre
Belgium

[got10carz]

I wonder if he is asking about 2 things? Wheel bearings and wheel nuts such as a Buffalo wheel. That would explain the 5# hammer.

[speedytinc]

Second reading, I believe he is talking about wire wheel hubs. Buffalo or the like, not wheel bearings. Hubs could be reversed. Lock ratchet mechanism wont do its job. There were repop buffalo hub caps that didnt have a locking mechanism. This is a question for the speedster guys.

[Dallas Landers]

Will, if you can post a photo of your setup it may help us understand your question. This is a great place to ask, as the knowledge here is awsome.

[John kuehn]

Need a picture to see what kind of wire wheels you have. Since you said “wire wheels” that would determine exactly what your talking about. Could be the Buffalo type wire wheels or it could be 26-27 T wheels. A picture says a thousand words. Either way something is causing the wheels to keep working loose.

[ModelTWoods]

Driver side (USA) of car is left side. Left side has right hand threads, right side has left hand threads.
Sounds like maybe your spindles are reversed?

DO NOT REVERSE SPINDLES FROM THE FACTORY POSITION. My Dad and I made this mistake back in the late 1960's when we restored his father's 27 coupe. After only a few miles of driving, one of the outer bearings (on the left front hub as I remember) self tightened itself on the spindle threads, putting too much pressure on the wire wheel hub and actually cracking and breaking the outer bearing area of the hub. Not being a member of a club back in those days and not knowing any T fanatics who had hoards of original parts. our only option was to have a local machine shop operator who was very experienced and could make or repair almost anything, repair the hub. My dad was paying for this restoration and we weren't on a budget, thankfully, but I'm sure the Machinist's bill was substantial, even in money back in the late 1960's. Repeating what has already been posted. Don't over tighten and use cotter pins !

[Scott_Conger]

searching Will's few posts easily brought up the fact that he DOES indeed have aftermarket wire wheels (very nice looking little car), so the question remains, "exactly what is coming loose?". Until that is answered, everything is speculation...and I do hope he will respond with details. At the very least, if it is the wire wheel's "cap" coming loose, I still would not want to beat on it to keep it on...

Will...where are you?

[Tim Rogers]

This is his vehicle...

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[Tim Rogers]

wheel.jpeg (82.29 KiB) Viewed 10164 times

[TRDxB2]

S.... Just finished regreasing my front wheel bearings.
Went for a test ride today and right front threaded center hub which holds on my wire wheels had loosened up after about 4-5 miles
.....I had used a 5 pound sledge hammer on a 1 foot long wrench to tighten the front wheels so I was surprised this happened
The right side hub uses right hand thread while the left side uses left hand thread. This is the way my T came to me but should they be reversed left to right side...

As stated above the description of the problem needs a bit a clarity to eliminate assumptions. A close up of the front wheel would help
-right front threaded center hub which holds on my wire wheels what brand wire wheels?
-I had used a 5 pound sledge hammer on a 1 foot long wrench to tighten the front wheels lugs, hub nuts , ?
-The right side hub uses right hand thread while the left side uses left hand thread is right based on sitting in the drivers seat?

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If the "right and left" sides are based on sitting in the drivers seat and as he says "The right side hub uses right hand thread while the left side uses left hand thread" would you expect things to tighten. http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/41 ... 1392932768

[speedytinc]

Yes could be wheel hubs on the wrong sides. I dont see any locking pin/ratchet. They look similar to Pasco 's. Pascos had a thin lock nut under the hub cap. If those are missing... Either way, dangerous to drive until sorted out.
I recall stories of a non locking buffalo capped wheel coming off during a tour in the country. Fortunately no one was injured, including the T, but the wheel flew away & an Easter egg hunt ensued.

[Dan McEachern]

Those are not common wire wheels, so my reply is of a general nature. Wire wheel hubcaps that have internal threads will have left-hand threads on the right side of the car and right hand threads on the left side. This would apply to Houk, Dayton Pin Drive and Buffalo wheels.
Caps that use an external thread will have RH threads on the right side and left hand threads on the left side. An example of this would be Dayton dental drive wheels.

Many accessory wheels utilize some type of ratchet or pawl locking mechanism to help retain the hub cap. These are designed so that the factory wrench depresses a locking lever in the cap allowing the spring loaded lock to release during installation and removal. Many reproduction Buffalo hubs and caps have been made over the years that did not have this feature, and its important to check your caps for tightness every time you take the car out of the garage.

Most knockoff style caps never had locks, and those seem to stay tight - at least as well as any other cap, but its important to check those as well.

A common issue that causes wheels to come loose is excessive paint buildup on the hub/wheel center mating surfaces. Layers of paint deform and move allowing the wheel to come loose.

Perhaps post a picture of your wheel hub, cap etc, and we can offer more help.

[WillsT]

Wow what a great a great set of replies thanks for all of your input
My front wheels have a separate set of hubs which hold the bearings and this hub, without wheel, is put on the spindle and held in place with castle nut and a cotter pin. No problems there
The wheel is then put on over the hub, there is a flange on the inside which centers the inside of wheel and the threaded center hubcap which centers the outside of the wheel and locks it in place
My other car, Buick, has Buffaloes and works about the same except it has 2 hubcaps that both screw on with the 2nd one is counter threaded and acts like a lock nut
No such thing on the T
I’ll go take some pictures

[WillsT]

Ok, here are some pictures of hub and wheel separate and once mounted
I have no issue with mounting the hub with two bearings castle nut and cotter pin
Everything stays in place and functions normally
The wheel slides over the hub and and is kept in place with the threaded hub cap/nut
This cap/nut is what comes loose after driving short distance

[WillsT]

Missed picture of hub and castle nut holding it in place

After reading Dan’s. Post and browsing the Jaguar E-type forum where the E uses knock off wire wheels there seems to be agreement that the the hubs with the right hand thread for the hubcap should be on the left, or drivers, side and the hub with the left hand thread should be on the right side.
This is opposite to the way my T came so I will interchange the two and go for another test
Thanks for all the help, you guys are very helpfull

[Kevin Pharis]

Hey there Will, interesting that your nearly unidentifiable rear wheels were converted to bolt on type, and your equally unidentifiable wheels (of a different make) were retained as knock off. The front hubs and caps smell homemade, and so every detail should be checked for proper function.

Even if the hubs were on the wrong side, the caps should stay tight for more than a few laps around the block. I suspect that the cap may not be tightening down on the wheel properly. Maybe the thread is binding, or the wheel is not seating properly, or there is slop in the drive pin(s)...?

[got10carz]

Is the 1 pin what drives, locates, the wheel. I can see the shoulder on the inside. Would be interesting to see the rears apart.

[TRDxB2]

Is the 1 pin what drives, locates, the wheel. I can see the shoulder on the inside. Would be interesting to see the rears apart.

Have the same question. Guessing that the pin likely keeps the wheel from spinning on the hub and the hub cap keeps it against the hub, Wonder if the nut resting against the hub is goes on the outside of the rim and tightened. There is also another hole on the wheel hub - lock nut hole?

[Luxford]

Off topic (kind of) I once worked for a guy who had a large collection of cars mostly high end such as Rolls Royce , Bentley, Bugatti, Vauxhall. De Dion.
He had a well worn 1914 Rolls Royce which had numerous owners over the years. The wire wheels originally had a RR complicated locking system, which used a special spanner to take them off and on. Over the years the operating locking parts wore out/broke and one owner solved the problem by making knock on wings for each nut. These were made from 1/2inch steel plate and the center was turned out to go over the original nuts and brazed on.
The wheels now needed a hammer to tighten and loosen them. Every now and then if someone was braking hard the left wheel nuts would come loose due to the momentum of the big winged nut having so much inertia. The nuts were replaced with new parts and the wing nuts thrown away. I remember is well as I had the job having the nuts and all the numerous levers, springs etc nickel plated and fitted. I only have one poor quality photo I can find of the RR but you can see the large knock on wing nut on the front left wheel.

[WillsT]

You guys are correct the pin on the hub goes through the hole in the wheel and prevents the two from slipping relative to each other
My buffalos has something similar where there are recesses in the wheel for the 6 mounting nuts that hold the hub to the spindle
The buffalos also use the same hubs on all 4 wheels, so wheels are identical on all 4 corners.
The other hole on the front wheel hub is in the center and had no purpose that I know of
I have not pulled the rears but as noted they are mounted via lug nuts, cap is not functional other than cleanliness and cosmetics as far as I can tell. See pictures below

I had painted the front hubs, as that was mentioned as a possible issue I will remove the paint where the wheel touches the hub.
I will also do as Kevin mentioned do a check on the dimensions to see if nut is limited on thread or whatever
It should be mentioned that it took a lot of force multiple times with that 5# mallet to remove the wheels when I started this so the previous owner used a lot of force to mount these fronts.
Any opinion on the use of locktite on the hubnut?

[Dan McEachern]

I'm skeptical of the way your rear wheels are mounted. If the lug nuts are not pulling the back side of the wheel center up against a solid surface directly behind the lug nuts, the wheel center is flexing and will eventually crack. Is the inboard rim of the wheel center up against the hub or is the recessed (area directly behind the lug nuts) part up against the hub itself? If not, both the lug nuts and the cap retaining thread is flexing the flat portion of the wheel center which is not a desireable situation.

[WillsT]

Understand your concern Dan, I will take them apart as soon as I resolve the front hub issue.
Car came with another complete set of artillery type wheels, very nice wood but tires old and worn.
Tires on the wire wheels are very new and little wear, so that why they are currently mounted on car

[jab35]

Is the cup on the inside of the wheel properly engaging the cone on the hub? From the image of the scuffed black paint it appears to me the wheel is sitting on the lip/edge of the hub cone, and should go on another 1/4" or so? I doubt the black paint is the problem. And the hubcap appears to have plenty of thread and end clearance to tighten several more turns, which suggests (to me ) that the wheel is not fully engaging with the cone of the hub?

Beautiful vehicle, especially the wheels, I like the wheel balancing weights on the spokes. Best, jb

[Scott_Conger]

As nice as they look from a distance, now that I've seen them close up, I would not drive on them. Dan McE has pointed out and commented on some things which I would have mentioned if he hadn't. The front hubs plain old frighten me.

I think it is a cosmetically nice application with some clever machining done to effect it. Unfortunately there appears to be little if any real design put into it and simply looks hazardous as it is. Worse, I do not see how they could be easily modified to take the forces that are routinely applied to them when driving.

I highly suspect that if these wheels have been on this car for any length of time it is because this car was a trailer-queen. Despite their attractiveness, I personally would not put much time/energy into trying to make these work. Model T's come with plenty of built-in hazards as they stand, without adding a home-made wheel setup into the mix.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

To add to others concerns, it scares me to think that the threaded nose on the hubs appear to be a brazed-on addition.

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[Kevin Pharis]

I suspect that this bronze ring is from the hub cap running on the hub surface...

[TXGOAT2]

Hub/wheel assemblies are a lot like connecting rod bearings in that they appear to be fairly simple arrangements, but they must be properly assembled and in good condition or they will be certain to fail. Both are critcal assemblies and both are subjected to very high, reversing stresses from every direction while in normal operation. Parts should never be assembled with dirt, rust, paint, or old grease between mating surfaces or with galled or otherwise damaged or worn mating surfaces. Mis-matched parts cannot be expected to perform reliabley.

[Kevin Pharis]

Lookin at the pics again... seems like the spoke ends could be crashing on the hub prior to the wheel seating on the hub fully. This erroneous seating of the wheel would cause the hub cap to tighten, but the hub/spoke heads would deform rapidly causing the assembly to work loose. Check for corresponding wear dimples on the hubs

[TRDxB2]

Note differences in rim shape and valve stems... and spoke weights Front vs Rear (with lead weights)
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Front

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Rear

[TXGOAT2]

Is the brass deposit on the inboard part of the hub threads actually brass threads pulled off another hub nut? If so, wouldn't it prevent the nut from tightening properly on the wheel's hub? Do these wheels make odd noises, like pops, squeaks, creaks, or thumps when going down the road?

[Allan]

I still can't get my head around folks using drivers side in their contributions, especially when they qualify it with left hand side. Universally, cars have a left hand side and a right hand side. Where the driver sits only makes for confusion.

The only confusion might then be reserved for those few persons who believe the car has different left and right hand sides depending on whether you are viewing from the front or back!

Allan from down under.

[WillsT]

First of all this car is no trailer queen, but a very nice driver, need to sand and redo the wooden box and fix paint in a couple of places.
Talked to previous owner and the wire wheels been on this car for 7-8 years on many tours without any issues.
I have only owned this car since October and have maybe 25 miles on car while fixing fuel issues and getting it to drive in a straight line, both items now resolved.

Took the other front wheel off and you can see a nice clean thread on the hub useable over the whole range of .66 inch, see picture
The hub in issue has some damage because the hub nut was half off which created the bare brass visible
Also the thread on the hub was not useable over the last .16 inch. Due to loose wheel or maybe before will never know
The useable part of the hub is just what is needed to tighten the wheel onto the hub within measurement error.
So did the hub nut stop turning because the thread was limiting or because wheel was tight ?

To remove this question I cleaned up the remaining .16 of the thread and the hub nut now travels the full .66 inch of thread without stopping without wheel in place, so hub nut will now stop when wheel is tight only.

[TRDxB2]

May have found a possible match for the rear. Several past discussions about trying to ID them, all that was said that they were on a Monroe Auto. The rear hubs appear to be drilled out to match the T bolt pattern - note the 3 holes to mount on the original hubs on the the white wheel
Just found this scroll down to see info https://www.hemmings.com/stories/article/nobodys-dust
WHEELS & TIRES Wheels: Detachable Detroit Stanweld wire Front/rear: 30 x 3 inches

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http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/599638/696044.html
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/11 ... 1293118764

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http://www.viathema.com/chevrolet/

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WHEELS & TIRES Wheels: Detachable Detroit Stanweld wire Front/rear: 30 x 3 inches
https://www.hemmings.com/stories/article/nobodys-dust

[Scott_Conger]

for more info: https://mtfca.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=26998

to the original poster, one of the two types of wheels you have can be seen to sport threads at the ID, which are for "hub caps" shown in other photos of identical wheels such as Frank B has posted.

My original advice to get them off the car if it is to be driven, still stands.

[TRDxB2]

for more info: https://mtfca.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=26998

to the original poster, one of the two types of wheels you have can be seen to sport threads at the ID, which are for "hub caps" shown in other photos of identical wheels such as Frank B has posted.

My original advice to get them off the car if it is to be driven, still stands.

Yes, I would say that's a good idea given their initial use
The rear's appear to be used on Cyclecars of that era https://auta5p-eu.translate.goog/katalo ... x_tr_hl=en