Temperature of Lizzy engine

[rainer]

Hello.
Today I had a wonderful first drive of 50 km with my Lizzy (1915 Touring). Everything fine, no issues, this was/is good for my trust in this car (actually this was my 3rd drive in total).

My Lizzy needs almost exactly 10l/100km gas (approx. 4.25 gpm), this appears to be a good value.

What I figured out is:
On long increasing streets, where Lizzy can keep a speed of 45-47km/h, the temperature climbs to the upper end of my motometer (to upper margin of the hole). Outside temperature was approx. 20°C. Gas was advanced 3/4 or a little more.

Is this normal? My brass radiator is made with round tubes, I have no (and don't want a) water pump.

I am so new with Model T that I cannot estimate. So I ask here.

[Scott_Conger]

I just did the math to convert and I would say that your gas consumption is a good average. Your speed on hills is average for a stock "T", also. Many folks run considerably faster than that (I generally do not), but you are running at the designed speed for your car, and are right at the point where Horse Power and Torque curves pretty much intersect each other. Your engine will last for years and years at that speed.

Your temperature is pretty warm, but if you are not losing coolant and it comes back down a little when you are not climbing hills, then you're OK. A new radiator would run much cooler, but that is a huge expense that does not appear necessary from your description.

Be sure you are advancing the timing enough. When you are up to a speed that you like, on level road, reduce timing until you lose speed, then advance timing to the point where the car picks up speed...at the point where the car no longer picks up speed, this is the general location for your timing. If you are running on the magneto, there will be 2 or 3 spots on the lever where the engine will pick up speed, with a fairly wide range of movement before another change in speed occurs. This is normal. If you are running on the battery, then the timing lever is infinitely variable along its range of motion.

Congratulations on a successful drive. I have enjoyed reading about the work you have done on your car.

[rainer]

Hello, Scott.

Thanks for this very good explanation. This helps me a lot.

Yes, I am running on magneto, except for starting. I already found out this few spots where a change in timing happens. Normally the tip of my spark advance lever is in 8:00 o'clock position (approximately), then it runs smoothest.

After driving 50km I got a feeling for switching to "high gear". At beginning I released the pedal a little bit too fast. The engine was still at too high rpm from low gear, this caused some bucking, but I get better and better. I think steel clutches engage very sudden in general. I decided to use them because they last longer. Will they close smoother after some driving, or will this not change?

A little question on starting:
I choked the engine twice. One time I forgot to switch to battery for re-starting. My Lizzy has a wonderful magneto voltage, but it is absolutely impossible to start the engine on magneto, while it starts immediately on battery. Is this normal? Is there any trick? I think the starter is not turning the engine quick enough for sufficient magneto voltage. I was also not able to crank-start on magneto . I tried it only for curiousness, but I need to say I am a bit scared of kickbacks, so I can crank the engine only 1/4 turn a time. With fully retarded timer, can I - in worst case - crank with two hands round and round?



For all who followed my post of self built electronic speedometer:
It works PERFECTLY. Precision of measurement - compared to GPS - is 1.5 km/h too fast. No faults yet, I think the design withstands all this harsh electric noise in this car very well. The hall sensor (magnetic sensor) is mounted at left-rear wheel and senses a stack of neodymium magnets (ø6mm x 18mm). They are drilled and glued into a wooden spoke with Epoxy resin. You see absolutely nothing and this does not harm stability of the wheel.

Of course, I can also convert the software to work in miles instead of metric units, if someone is interested in such speedometer. Pictures on my other post.

[TRDxB2]

Hello.
Today I had a wonderful first drive of 50 km with my Lizzy (1915 Touring). Everything fine, no issues, this was/is good for my trust in this car (actually this was my 3rd drive in total).

My Lizzy needs almost exactly 10l/100km gas (approx. 4.25 gpm), this appears to be a good value.

What I figured out is:
On long increasing streets, where Lizzy can keep a speed of 45-47km/h, the temperature climbs to the upper end of my motometer (to upper margin of the hole). Outside temperature was approx. 20°C. Gas was advanced 3/4 or a little more.

Is this normal? My brass radiator is made with round tubes, I have (and don't want) a water pump.

I am so new with Model T that I cannot estimate. So I ask here.

You didn't mention if you are running straight water or a coolant/antifreeze. 20°C=68°F , 45-47kmh = 29mph.
There are many opinions on Model T water pumps. It should be understood that Today's autos are a pressurized system and so the water pump actually pumps. The Model T system is unpressurized and uses the principle of thermosyphoning to cause the engine coolant to flow through the system. So there must be a temperature differential for that reaction to occur. Proper operating coolant temperature is approximately between 180°F-210°F (82 °C - 99°C).
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Model T water pumps use impellers to push coolant through the system and that coolant needs to be at the level of the impeller for that to occur. So the pump would be more effective if it were mounted lower. Now consider this: If the radiator is unable to properly cool, reduce the temperature of the coolant, and if the water pump would actually push the coolant faster through the system - the result would be less of a temperature differential for thermosyphoning to take effect. I am not saying that Model T water pumps are ineffective, what I am trying to point out is that they need good functioning radiator to be effective. So they are not the best solution for overheating.
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Last bit of info - Moto-Meters are not calibrated temperature gauges, just a general indicator of that one on your engine. So, as Scott has pointed out, if your are not loosing coolant then the reading is within the limits of that Moto-Meter on your engine. If want to correlate the actual temperature to your Moto-Meter indicators you need to purchase an inexpensive Infrared Thermometer.

[Art M]

I have 2 recommendations
Buy a infrared thermometer to get an idea of radiator temperature. Use it on wheel bearings etc and on your touring friends cars as requested.

Check the angle of actual timer retardation when the timing lever is fully retarded. This should be 15 degrees.
If the timing is too far retarded, the engine can be harder to start.

Art Mirtes

[TXGOAT2]

Some cars will start more easily on Mag with the spark lever advanced several notches. I find that this is the case with my car. Obviously, this should be done with great caution if you are using the hand crank. I would suggest first to get used to starting the car on Battery with the electric starter, and then practice starting with the hand crank on Battery. When you get good at that, then try starting on Magneto with the electric starter. Once that becomes routine, and you have a feel for what spark settings work best for starting your on your car on Battery and Magneto, then proceed, cautiously, to attempt starting on Magneto with the hand crank. I always crank the engine in 1/4 turn "pulls", and always pulling upward. I only crank it full turns with the ignition OFF.

[rainer]

TRDxB2:
Yes, indeed, I didn't mention the kind of coolant. I use antifreeze thinned to -12°C. Perhaps I will have to reduce antifreeze percentage for better cooling.

Air temperature was ~20°C / 68°F

I have no idea what temperature a motometer indicates when it reaches the upper margin of the hole, but this must be very close to 90-100°C / 190-210°F. When I turned off the engine I heard some decent blubber for short time (approx one every 5-10 seconds) so the engine must have been close to the coolant boiling temp.

Need to say that I extended the lower end of the motometer by 1.5-2" by sliding a little copper tube on its end. So it dips now into the coolant. Possibly this makes it show a higher value?

[rainer]

Some cars will start more easily on Mag with the spark lever advanced several notches. I find that this is the case with my car. Obviously, this should be done with great caution if you are using the hand crank. I would suggest first to get used to starting the car on Battery with the electric starter, and then practice starting with the hand crank on Battery. When you get good at that, then try starting on Magneto with the electric starter. Once that becomes routine, and you have a feel for what spark settings work best for starting your on your car on Battery and Magneto, then proceed, cautiously, to attempt starting on Magneto with the hand crank. I always crank the engine in 1/4 turn "pulls", and always pulling upward. I only crank it full turns with the ignition OFF.

Normally I always crank on battery. I hook in the crank at 9:00 position and pull with left hand horizontally, my right hand on the fender's edge. This way I can get a 1/3 turn and cannot get a stroke by the crank. On battery 1-2 pulls and it runs (except cold engine because of steel clutch, this makes turning harder. So I like to use the starter in this situation.
For priming (ignition OFF), I push the crank downwards with right hand while pulling the choke with left hand. I do it this way to not bend the front choke wire with the crank (only 2" spacing).

[DanTreace]

Best advise is check upper tank temp and lower metal return pipe to measure differential. After normal run, stop and idle motor to low rpm’s. Measure with electronic laser digital thermometer. Should be 65-75 degrees F difference.

A Motometer isn’t to be dipped into the heated coolant, the probe is calibrated to read vapor temperature above the heated coolant in the top tank. That is likely the unusual reading. Normal mild summer mark is mid the circle. Above the circle coolant is approaching boiling.

[rainer]

Best advise is check upper tank temp and lower metal return pipe to measure differential. After normal run, stop and idle motor to low rpm’s. Measure with electronic laser digital thermometer. Should be 65-75 degrees F difference.

A Motometer isn’t to be dipped into the heated coolant, the probe is calibrated to read vapor temperature above the heated coolant in the top tank. That is likely the unusual reading. Normal mild summer mark is mid the circle. Above the circle coolant is approaching boiling.

I took off this extension and will continue watching.

I peeked into the radiator to check coolant level. I can see a V or U shaped sheet of brass metal with some holes. The coolant touched the deepest point of this metal with cold engine. Sufficient? I added a little bit of water, now the metal is 1/4" under the surface. So when it is now a bit too much, it will get out during next drive.

[TRDxB2]

TRDxB2:
Yes, indeed, I didn't mention the kind of coolant. I use antifreeze thinned to -12°C. Perhaps I will have to reduce antifreeze percentage for better cooling.

Air temperature was ~20°C / 68°F

I have no idea what temperature a motometer indicates when it reaches the upper margin of the hole, but this must be very close to 90-100°C / 190-210°F. When I turned off the engine I heard some decent blubber for short time (approx one every 5-10 seconds) so the engine must have been close to the coolant boiling temp.

Need to say that I extended the lower end of the motometer by 1.5-2" by sliding a little copper tube on its end. So it dips now into the coolant. Possibly this makes it show a higher value?

You need to remove your extension if yo u haven't already. As Dan mentioned the Motor-Meter was design to measure vapor not liquid temperature.
With your coolant at set at -12°C (10°F) it should be Okay if this chart is correct (bars)

[ironhorse]

How old is the coolant in your system. I know a lot of people never change the coolant unless they have to change a hose or something, but coolant like everything else degrades with time. I replace mine every 2 years and consider it cheap insurance this renews your rust inhibitors and helps keep buildup in your system to a minimum. if you are unsure of the age of your coolant a system flush may be in order. Happy T-ing

[Scott_Conger]

A little question on starting:
I choked the engine twice. One time I forgot to switch to battery for re-starting. My Lizzy has a wonderful magneto voltage, but it is absolutely impossible to start the engine on magneto, while it starts immediately on battery. Is this normal? Is there any trick? I think the starter is not turning the engine quick enough for sufficient magneto voltage. I was also not able to crank-start on magneto . I tried it only for curiousness, but I need to say I am a bit scared of kickbacks, so I can crank the engine only 1/4 turn a time. With fully retarded timer, can I - in worst case - crank with two hands round and round?

1. It is normal if the 3rd main is worn a little and the magnets have moved away from the coil a little (and this is normal on EVERY T with some miles on it. Or if you're trying to start on mag the same way as starting on battery (there IS a difference).

2.The trick is to move the timing lever "down" about 10mm (there is no "spark" available to come from the magneto with the lever all the way "up"). Do not worry about kickback or being injured trying this (but still stick with 1/4 of a turn for cranking...). Of course NEVER CRANK ON BATTERY UNLESS THE LEVER IS ALL THE WAY UP!)

3. NEVER crank all the way around, for any reason

Someday, you will have a timer wire frayed wire that grounds, or some wear in the timer linkage, or you simply forget and leave the timing lever "down" a little to start on MAG and are really using the battery. When this happens, no mater how well-behaved your car has been, it is going to kick back and you will never forget the experience.

[rainer]

How old is the coolant in your system. I know a lot of people never change the coolant unless they have to change a hose or something, but coolant like everything else degrades with time. I replace mine every 2 years and consider it cheap insurance this renews your rust inhibitors and helps keep buildup in your system to a minimum. if you are unsure of the age of your coolant a system flush may be in order. Happy T-ing

The coolant is new, filled in after finishing my clutch repair last Nov-Dec, but thank you for mentioning.
My school friend works in a company "Adamol", they are selling oil, coolants, grease, ... for many purposes. He chose coolant for me, especially made for systems with copper and iron inside. It is softer to all the brass in the radiator than some other coolants.

Coolant bottle - Front

Coolant bottle - Rear

[rainer]

Hello, Scott.
thanks for this details. To move the lever down a little bit I didn't know. I will give it a try with warm engine (this makes life easier).

When I got my Lizzy, the linking rod to the timer was wrong. In uppermost lever position the timer's eye (where the rod is hooked in) was not 62mm to the right of the bolt, it was 73mm or so. So even with lever completely up I already had an early spark.
-> I know therefore very well how a kickback is, I don't want to have my hand in the crank when this happens, the crank made 5 revolutions backwards until it stopped. But it didn't hit me because I had followed the starting description in the books - USE LEFT HAND ....

Now the rod is in correct shape and I have 62mm (~ 2.5") measured in upper lever position (as it should be). No kickback any more.

[Humblej]

Rainer,
Measuring the distance for the timer setting only works if you have a Ford timer and a Ford roller, you might, but probably do not. Ford timers and rollers are marked with a Ford script. There are a lot of different manufactures and styles of timers, not knowing for sure what you have, it is best to assume that you do not have a Ford timer and a Ford roller. You set the timing for any timer to give a spark at fully retarded lever position when the piston is just past TDC. As you know if the spark occurs before TDC the engine could try to run backwards. I check my timing by removing a spark plug and inserting a long wire into the cylinder. The wire will go up and down with the piston so I can tell when the piston has reached TDC, some use the position of the crank ratchet pin, and with the spark plug grounded it will fire depending on lever position. I want my plug to fire just passing TDC and the spark lever is fully retarded. Before I do my test I turn the carb adjustment to full lean and crank the engine over a few times with the key off, this will get rid of any fuel/air mixture in the cylinders when I do my TDC test by hand.

Besides the timing, other factors that could cause a hot engine are improper use of the spark lever, and too lean a carb setting.

Spark lever operation, except for staring the engine, should be set to what the engine RPM is at. High RPM will have the sweet spot at or near full lever position, moderate engine RPM between 1/2 and full lever position, very low RPM below 1/2. Set the spark lever by sound and feel, the right lever position will give a smooth running engine, too much or too little lever setting will cause the engine to buck or drop RPM. While driving, at a constant speed on level ground the spark lever will not need to be moved once set as the engine RPMs will remain somewhat constant. As the driving conditions change you will need to adjust the spark lever as your engine RPM changes. Lower RPM, less spark, again setting by feel and sound. Want to speed up, add more gas, then as the engine RPM speeds up you may need to advance the spark lever. Driving along at a steady state condition and encounter a hill, as long as the RPM remains constant, leave the timing alone, but as the RPM drops off you will need to retard the spark according to your engine RPM. As the hill gets very steep and the RPM is dropping off considerably, the spark lever should be retarded accordingly, as the engine RPM dictates. Trying to make that vey steep hill in high gear and the RPM is about where it is during engine start, the spark will need to be about fully retarded, as dictated by engine RPM. Cant make the hill in high, shifting to low the RPM will start racing, high RPM needs a highly advanced spark lever setting. A conventional car distributor automatically advances and retards the timing based on engine RPM. RPM increases, the dist advances, RPM slows, the dist retards. In a Model T the driver has to do what the automatic distributor does, set the timing for the given engine RPM of the moment. The Ford Operator Manual has a handy spark and throttle chart that a lot of owners try to memorize and apply while driving by rote, but the chart is to show you what you are likely to have for any given steady state condition. No need to memorize the chart, just set the lever by sound and feel for the given engine RPM. Some drivers move the spark lever at the same time they move the gas lever, and that works OK for them, B
but for optimum performance, if you can say that for a Model T, move the throttle lever for what you want the engine to do in the immediate future, and move the spark lever for what the engine RPM is doing at the current moment.

Carb mixture setting will also effect engine performance and temperature. The correct fuel /air mixture setting will vary from day to day depending on air temperature, humidity, and elevation. Most carbs need a rich setting for starting and adjusted soon after the engine starts, then adjusted again after the engine warms up, then again after the engine is driving in a steady state, then done, period, unless the ambient air temperature, humidity, or elevation changes. If you are adjusting the mixture knob by sound and feel you should be fine, but if you are setting it by rote, as some model T drivers do, you will not have optimal performance for the given conditions of the day. A lean mixture will cause the engine to run hotter, so if you are running hotter today, it could be you need to richen the carb mixture 1/4 to 1/2 turn and see if the engine runs cooler.