Free Neutral

[andy2794]

Last fall I purchased a 1916 Model T. My 1st experience with a Model T. It had been sitting for a long time. When I bought it we had to jack up one wheel to start it. We got it running then lowered the wheel down after it warmed up a little. It would back up fine but did not go forward very well. After watching some video's on YOUTUBE I figured out how to remove the hog head and change the brake bands, the center one was completely wore out, the other 2 were good. After replacing the center band I could not get a neutral with the hand brake in the neutral position, I could not lower the wheel at all after starting the engine even after it warmed up. I changed the oil, it was very thick. That did not help. I noticed when moving the hand brake back and forth the transmission clutch release ring was moving very little. I was told there was probably rust or corrosion on the clutches. I removed the oil again and filled it with 3 gallon of diesel fuel, put an aerator in the diesel fuel and made bubbles in the fuel waited a couple days and turned the transmission 180 degrees and let that side soak drained the fuel and now had movement in the transmission clutch ring. I thought that solved my problem and put oil back in. Still had the same problem. I was told the apple cider vinegar would cut the rust better so I drained the oil again and soaked it with 3 gallon of vinegar a couple days on each half, drained the vinegar and had even more movement with the clutch ring. Now I could lower the wheel to the floor and put the hand brake in the neutral position and could crank the engine and the T did not move. I put the oil back in and cranked the engine and it moved. I jacked it up let it run for a little while and now I can lower it to the ground and still moved but I could put a block in front of the tire and the engine will keep running. Someone told me I need to just drive it. I dove it about 4 miles, when it is warmed up I can stop it on the level and it will sit there at an idle, if I rev up the engine it will creep forward a little. IF I let it sit over night and crank the engine and the T moves, other words I would have to jack it up to start it. I can hear a drag on the engine when I lower the T to the ground.
Please advise.

[CudaMan]

Sounds to me like your low band may be adjusted a bit too tight. Check the distance between the floor board and the bottom of the low pedal when the pedal is pressed down hard. Shoot for around an inch of clearance to the floor board. Drive the car a few times, then check the clearance again. Make slight adjustments to maintain the 1 inch pedal clearance. After a few repetitions of this, the band will take a "set" and won't need adjustment nearly as often.

If the low pedal sticks to the floor and has to be pulled back up by hand, the low band is too loose, tighten it a bit and try again.

Here is an article that may be of help.

[andy2794]

6 Bolts and the body comes off, I forgot to say I have removed the body. How do I do this adjustment with the body removed?

[Scott_Conger]

I would advise to never take advice from anyone who suggests filling the crankcase with either 3 gallons of diesel fuel or with vinegar.

at 3 gallons, some most likely made it into the rear end and as for vinegar, that is just, well...

I will also advise finding someone local to help with the adjustments you need to make before you really break something of significance, which is the sort of potential you're dealing with right now.

[andy2794]

I have contacted 2 local Model T clubs, the one wants me to join 1st and the other has more vehicles in the '60's than the teens. I am 71 years old, most of the local old timers that know anything about the Model T are gone.
Just trying to find someone willing to share advise. Thank you for the reply.

[Norman Kling]

The low band adjustment is a bit more critical than the reverse and the brake, because the first few inches of movement does not operate the band but it releases the high speed clutch. Then after the clutch is released and you continue to depress the pedal, it compresses the low band. If you have no body or floorboards, you can get a pretty close adjustment by observing the sideways movement of the pedal. As you depress the pedal the first couple inches the pedal moves straight forward. Then as you continue to press it, the pedal shaft should move to the right until the band is tight. You can observe through the inspection plate over the hogs plate. When the plate is removed, when the pedal is all the way back the band should be loose enough to be able to wiggle it with your hand. Then as you pass the neutral position, it should move about two more inches till it is tight around the drum. After you get the body in place, you can do your final adjustments. When everything is correct, and the parking lever is all the way back, you should be able to turn the hand crank and be able to move the crankshaft. If the high speed clutch is stuck the engine will not turn.
Norm

[speedytinc]

You should, no, MUST have the T1 service manual. No one should own or tinker with a T without one. Check & correctly adjust neutral & clutch linkage, Clutch fingers & spring to spec. Back off low band to just working before the pedal hits the floor. There should be a very noticeable change in transmission noise as the low pedal is engaged to work the tripple gears. A badly out of round band or one with a hi spot lump in the material will also act as an over tightened low adjustment.
Drain whatever is in the engine & put in fresh oil 30 wt or maybe a 10-30 in this case. Run it good & hot. If after all this, & you dont have a decent neutral, the problem is likely in the clutch pack/drum. Improperly assembled or badly notched drum, which will require a tear down.

[John kuehn]

When trying for the elusive free neutral I’ve found that it’s pretty close when the car is cold on level ground,the hand brake straight up and can be pushed either forward or backwards fairly easy without the engine moving.
If you can get to that point your getting close to how it should be.

If it moves with the hand brake straight up something isn’t right. Make the adjustment as stated in the adjustment post and IF you put the transmission bands on correctly and have made the adjustments it should be OK.
It sounds like it could be the low speed band is to tight or when thinking that when the hand brake is straight up it’s adjusted right it’s not and in the linkage is the issue.

Get the Ford service manual and read and study it so can learn what to do and not to do.

[TRDxB2]

First I would never put "vinegar" into a engine to remove rust.The problem with interpreting using "vinegar" to remove rust is totally out of context. Do they mean, salad vinegar (wine, apple cider, rice, Balsamic etc) or white distilled vinegar is a light cleaning vinegar and if its labeled cleaning vinegar what concentration level? So while the pH level is the same their acidity level varies 5% to 30%. Apple Cider Vinegar is 4to5%.
This video is about a comparing white vinegar to apple cider vinegar to add a rusty metal patina to steel for a Rat Rod.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fu7ojJStAFA
Diesel Fuel is just a high grade more expensive form of kerosene. The 1925 Ford Owners manual suggest cleaning a engine out with kerosene and then flushing it with new oil after draining out the kerosene And then adding oil in. The 1926 Owners manual says to clean with some fresh oil, drain it and then add new oil.
--
Here are some helpful instructions to adjust bands
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuAnyYOvHxc
a Step by step rom Model T Ford Fix
https://modeltfordfix.com/adjusting-the ... nd-clutch/

[speedytinc]

Once you have everything adjusted BY THE BOOK, & after getting good & hot & the problem isnt manageable. It may the worst case clutch drum notches. In which case, put in neutral & rock the car forward & back a few times or easier, low & reverse pedal alternating engagements. This may break loose the disks from their notch homes. If there is improvement, diagnosis complete. Expect the situation to return as the disks find their way back to those wear notches. A tear down is next.

This recent situation hit the shop. Grandpa's T had the worst case scenario. Upon tear down we found Grandpa replaced the brake/clutch drum with a NOS late narrow drum, but he didnt put the 6 clutch shoes in. The outer disks jammed up in the shoe lock tab cuts. Ruined that beautiful golden drum.
Believe it or not, in the spare parts pile was a second NOS drum!!! Put that one in, with the shoes & a th400 clutch. Absolut free neutral. You can push the car with 1 finger forward or reverse whall running in neutral.

[andy2794]

Here is where I am now. When it is nice & hot, drove it another mile, I have free neutral, but I do not when it is cold. I have much more movement in the clutch release ring than I had before, but I do not know how much movement there should be. Should I drain the oil again and try kerosene?
What would you advise?

[Norman Kling]

Hot or cold makes a difference and also the weight of the oil. In freezing cold weather the oil is thicker and will cause more drag in the clutch bands. Our multi grade oils make it easier to start in cold weather. Jack up one rear wheel and with the parking lever in neutral try starting up when cold. Then after you get it running, try the low and reverse pedals finally use the foot brake. It should not kill the engine if the clutch is free. As the weather warms up, you should be able to start the engine without jacking the wheel Use the parking brake and chock the car from rolling to the front while starting. When you park, try to find a level place and park with the parking brake forward in the high gear position. That will keep the oil from flowing between the disks and then you pull the brake back just before attempting to start.
norm

[speedytinc]

Here is where I am now. When it is nice & hot, drove it another mile, I have free neutral, but I do not when it is cold. I have much more movement in the clutch release ring than I had before, but I do not know how much movement there should be. Should I drain the oil again and try kerosene?
What would you advise?

You reset ALL the linkage by the book. You would know if the amount of movement is correct. Another CORRECT kerosene flush wouldnt hurt anything, but dont expect improvement. Driving with a good detergent oil will clean the disks as well as can be.

The model t clutch is made up of alternating large & small disks (SEE THE BOOK) The smaller disks had a dish to them like a bellville washer. When the clutch is disengaged, those disks spring the disks apart. When they loose their dish, they oil lock. Most prevalent when cold. When you park the car leave the brake lever forward to help prevent. A light winter oil & a heated garage will help.

Your situation is quite common. Your options are to live with it or pull the motor & change those small disks. TH400 disks will give you a 100% free neutral forever.(If you can follow the setup instructions). I cant say if the new steel replacement disks have the proper dish, I dont use them.

[andy2794]

Here is where I am now. At least it will usually start with about 2 cranks. If I let it warm up I can lower it to the ground and not hear a load on the engine. If the T is on the grass or gravel it will not creep forward, if it on concrete it will still creep forward even after taking it for a ride. I left the brake handle forward, pulled it to the straight up position the next morning and I still have to jack it up to start it. Temp is in the mid 40s here.
Please advise.

[Scott_Conger]

It is much easier to give advice if we knew that you have taken the advice already given: have you adjusted everything per the "free neutral" adjustment procedure?

[TXGOAT2]

What kind of oil do you have in the engine?

[speedytinc]

andy2794 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 23, 2022 2:41 pm
Here is where I am now. When it is nice & hot, drove it another mile, I have free neutral, but I do not when it is cold. I have much more movement in the clutch release ring than I had before, but I do not know how much movement there should be. Should I drain the oil again and try kerosene?
What would you advise?
You reset ALL the linkage by the book. You would know if the amount of movement is correct. Another CORRECT kerosene flush wouldnt hurt anything, but dont expect improvement. Driving with a good detergent oil will clean the disks as well as can be.

The model t clutch is made up of alternating large & small disks (SEE THE BOOK) The smaller disks had a dish to them like a bellville washer. When the clutch is disengaged, those disks spring the disks apart. When they loose their dish, they oil lock. Most prevalent when cold. When you park the car leave the brake lever forward to help prevent. A light winter oil & a heated garage will help.

Your situation is quite common. Your options are to live with it or pull the motor & change those small disks. TH400 disks will give you a 100% free neutral forever.(If you can follow the setup instructions). I cant say if the new steel replacement disks have the proper dish, I dont use them.

40 is pretty cold. Colder over night? I repeat the above. A run down of EXACTLY what you have done would be helpful.

[Altair]

I found on my T the teeth on the hand lever were warn where the neutral would be as that is the most used spot. If I pulled the lever back further to clear the warn teeth the brakes would be on, this was a problem only when backing up. If the lever is fully back with the brakes on and the clutch is still dragging then apply additional pressure on the left pedal to see if it requires further travel. Check the spring and see if it compresses square, it may be broken.

[gcomo]

What does it do if you have the brake pulled all the way back when starting?