Thoughts on when to get wood wheels rebuilt?

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NealW
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Thoughts on when to get wood wheels rebuilt?

Post by NealW » Fri Apr 29, 2022 2:24 pm

I am in the process of restoring a 1911 T touring car. Like renovating an old house, digging into a car that old will inevitably result in some surprises. The car spent about 110 years in southern California before making its way to Kansas last year. Overall the body and wood are in very good shape, as you would hope for a car that spent most of its existence in sunny California.

This week I started working on the wheels removing the paint from the rims and hubs. The original paint had been removed from the spokes likely when the car was repainted in 1949. My unpleasant surprise was finding one of the spokes on a rear wheel is cracked, as the two pictures below show. I restored a 15 runabout 3 years ago and it had loose spokes so I had Stutzman's rebuild them. They do beautiful work. I talked to Noah yesterday and there prices have gone up noticeably since I had the runabout wheels rebuilt. I guess high inflation also has impacted them too.

I am planning on having them rebuild the wheel with the cracked spoked. The other three wheels appear to be in good shape with no visible cracks in the felloes or spokes, and no loose spokes. My question to the experienced T restorers, maintainers and operators on the forum is whether what appear to be good wheels can still be good wheels, or should T wheels be rebuilt eventually no matter what.

thanks,

Neal
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Norman Kling
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Re: Thoughts on when to get wood wheels rebuilt?

Post by Norman Kling » Fri Apr 29, 2022 2:46 pm

At least the one which is cracked(if that is really a crack which goes through the wood, which it looks like in the picture). Any others which wobble at either the hub of the felloe and also if any of the rivets are loose or missing. Otherwise just keep a good eye on the wheels and check each time you take the car out.
Norm


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Re: Thoughts on when to get wood wheels rebuilt?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Fri Apr 29, 2022 2:53 pm

One thing to consider is the limited number of qualified and properly equipped wooden wheel rebuilders. The number of people providing this service is unlikely to increase.


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NealW
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Re: Thoughts on when to get wood wheels rebuilt?

Post by NealW » Fri Apr 29, 2022 2:56 pm

Norman Kling wrote:
Fri Apr 29, 2022 2:46 pm
At least the one which is cracked(if that is really a crack which goes through the wood, which it looks like in the picture).
It is cracked. I carefully sanded down as seen in the pictures to see if it was just a surface blemish. I kept sanding and the crack didn't go away!


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Re: Thoughts on when to get wood wheels rebuilt?

Post by Fire_chief » Fri Apr 29, 2022 3:01 pm

I would definitely bite the bullet, and have all the wheels rebuilt. The peace of mind, will long out weigh the cost of doing the job right. Maybe two this year, and two next year. Just my honest opinion. Charlie.

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Re: Thoughts on when to get wood wheels rebuilt?

Post by TWrenn » Fri Apr 29, 2022 3:12 pm

This is certainly a question/quandary that really only you can answer to your own satisfaction. It's like oil, you'll get a zillion opinions. To that extent, I would only add this to the posts, most of which I skimmed due to attention span issues , :lol: ...I HAD to have a rear wheel on my Fordor re-spoked 'cause it talked too much to me last fall while driving. When I checked all the others, the two FRONT wheels, which IMHO are of course the most important, I felt "squeamish" about them, so off they went to Stutzmans too. Really beat up my mad-money account, but I'm glad I bit the bullet and got 'em done.

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Re: Thoughts on when to get wood wheels rebuilt?

Post by Rich Eagle » Fri Apr 29, 2022 3:16 pm

Many of us who have nursed old wheels down the road and have repaired bad wheels with all kinds of tricks can't in good conscience encourage anyone to use an old wheel. New wheels from an expert is the best money you can spend on your car.
I would love to show some repair work I have done but would hate to have anyone do it and have an accident.
Make your own choice but consider the safety of it. Please.
It doesn't hurt as much after the money has been spent.
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Re: Thoughts on when to get wood wheels rebuilt?

Post by DHort » Fri Apr 29, 2022 5:36 pm

Your life if something breaks at speed or $1200. What is your life worth to you?


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Re: Thoughts on when to get wood wheels rebuilt?

Post by Marty Bufalini » Fri Apr 29, 2022 6:18 pm

Noah Stutzman in Ohio. Amish wheelwright. Does perfect work. He made a new set of wheels for my 14. Peace of mind is worth the cost. I know it’s far but you ship them.


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Re: Thoughts on when to get wood wheels rebuilt?

Post by John kuehn » Fri Apr 29, 2022 7:42 pm

That spoke didn’t crack when you bought it. It’s probably been cracked for many years. It may last for a few more years or 1 day. It’s up to you if you think your wheels need rebuilding. Some will say to park your car today and don’t get in it as it might crack the rest of your wheels. If you do get your wheels redone save the worst appearing spokes and put them in a vise and see if you can break them with a good hammer rap. You might be surprised what might happen.


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Re: Thoughts on when to get wood wheels rebuilt?

Post by Scott_Conger » Fri Apr 29, 2022 8:20 pm

The tool that may well have cracked it could have been an APCO wheel puller which hooked 2 opposing spokes with heavy arms/hooks and had a heavy duty jack-screw to break the wheel away from the axle. I own one as a collector piece, and have always imagined it producing the exact stress crack that you have.

As mentioned elsewhere, that crack has most likely been there for a very long time.
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Re: Thoughts on when to get wood wheels rebuilt?

Post by TRDxB2 » Fri Apr 29, 2022 8:27 pm

Sell your old spokes on eBay they are worth $3 to $4 each to wood turners & people who make pens out of them. Bundle of 10 for $40 + shipping. Since they turn them down not much difference in value for top layer
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Re: Thoughts on when to get wood wheels rebuilt?

Post by Steve Jelf » Fri Apr 29, 2022 10:09 pm

One rear wheel on my 1915 was solid and showed no signs of deterioration. So the car now has three Stutzman wheels and one old one. Since I got the new wheels in 2015 the car has made three Kansas-to-Detroit trips and some shorter travels. So far so good. No signs of trouble yet.
The inevitable often happens.
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Re: Thoughts on when to get wood wheels rebuilt?

Post by John kuehn » Fri Apr 29, 2022 10:15 pm

Wow! I didn’t know Apco made a wheel puller that used arms that gripped the spokes!

Ill bet not any of today’s Model T owners would use one of those. Even with a new spoke job from Stutzmens I sure wouldn’t do it and Im almost sure nobody else would either.

That’s one tool I bet the tool collectors would want. Maybe somebody on the forum has a picture of one. Thanks for a very interesting update Scott!


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Re: Thoughts on when to get wood wheels rebuilt?

Post by Scott_Conger » Fri Apr 29, 2022 10:41 pm

I'll try to remember to snap a picture tomorrow.

When I saw it, I thought it was so ridiculous, I had to have it.
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Re: Thoughts on when to get wood wheels rebuilt?

Post by RGould1910 » Sat Apr 30, 2022 12:21 am

If you have repro 09 -10 rear hubs that are thin in the neck area, the pullers that pull on the spokes are the best choice as the typical pullers that pull on the hub threads can break the hub. I had that experience. It's no fun replacing a hub on a painted wheel.
That one cracked spoke wouldn't bother me. I've seen a T run down the road with a number of spokes removed from a wheel, believe it or not!
As others observed, that crack has probably been there for years with no adverse affects.


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Re: Thoughts on when to get wood wheels rebuilt?

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Sat Apr 30, 2022 12:28 am

I find myself in the same camp as Rich Eagle. Life and family never treated me very well. So I cannot afford to spend the money required to have wheels rebuilt. I have been rebuilding my wheels for many years, and think I know fairly well how to take care of them. But I don't like discussing what I do, or how, for fear that someone that doesn't understand them will try and do something wrong. The probability of someone being hurt or even killed because of that is too great for me to feel sharing my secrets is a wise idea.
I often see pictures of wheels people get rebuilt, and wish they could have sent me the old wood. Sometimes I see wood better than some I have used to rebuild my wheels.
Wood felly wheels can be tightened up, and made safe for many more years and miles PROVIDED THE WOOD IS GOOD ENOUGH! And provided certain common mistakes are avoided. I have carefully mixed and matched good spokes from two or three different wheels to make one good wheel. It can be done, and can be done to be fairly safe.
However, encouraging others to do likewise? Not such a good idea.
ALL wooden spoke wheels should be routinely examined for signs of shrinkage or wear in wrong places to avoid potential future problems.


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Re: Thoughts on when to get wood wheels rebuilt?

Post by 1915ford » Sat Apr 30, 2022 7:24 am

One thing to consider is that while new wheels are very good they are likely not quite as strong as originals due to the fact that the originals were made from old growth hickory. I run both stutzman wheels and originals on my cars and good originals like yours will outlast all of us. The originals i have had that eventually required work became loose at the rim and felloe joining plates. The wood itself never seems to degrade if it has no rot to start with. One thing to do if you decide to have them rewooded is to carefully disassemble them first so the rim and hub can be blasted and sealed where they are covered by the wood. Also keep the old wood and send at least one spoke to Noah so the spoke profile can be copied exactly. Spoke profile varied from year to year and also between the three makers of the wheels.

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Re: Thoughts on when to get wood wheels rebuilt?

Post by ironhorse » Sat Apr 30, 2022 7:35 am

If you are driving down the road and hear the sound of a wooden wind chime STOP! You have driven past the useful life of the wheel. Before I knew anything about Model T Wood wheels The roadster I bought was making that sound, my mentor showed me where a couple of shims had worn out and the spokes were loose as a goose! :evil:
Do it right or do it over,your choice. Drive like everyone is out to get you!


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Re: Thoughts on when to get wood wheels rebuilt?

Post by NealW » Sat Apr 30, 2022 7:40 pm

Today I took the wheel apart with the cracked spoke. In addition to being cracked about half way through the spoke, there are cracks going lengthwise in both directions from each edge of the widthwise crack. I suspect that Scott may be right on the cause of the crack. If not, something must have hit that spoke to do the damage. It could have been there a long time, but unlike our bones, it wasn't going to heal itself and there is no way knowing how long it would have been OK to use as is.

The cracked spoked aside, I found that the wood was in amazing shape. The spokes and felloe joints were tight and I had to work quite a bit to get some of the spokes loose enough to come out. No rot or deterioration whatsoever. What I was also amazed by was the lack of corrosion between the bare steel hub pieces and rim to the wood. Here is a picture of the rim after I knocked the felloe out. I had already removed the paint outside of the felloe before noticing the crack, and except for the paint line where the edge of the felloe was, there was almost no difference between the recently stripped outer edge and the portion of the rim under the felloe. Certainly the 110 years in California were kind to the wheels from a corrosion and rot standpoint.

I still think getting this wheel rebuilt is the correct thing to do given the nature and extent of the spoke crack, but I have to admit, it was a shame to take apart a very solid wheel. The others appear just as solid, and thankfully no visible cracks on any of them.
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Re: Thoughts on when to get wood wheels rebuilt?

Post by Oldav8tor » Sat Apr 30, 2022 8:22 pm

I have two originals and two stutzman's. If the spokes look good and aren't loose, they're probably OK. One thing to check however, is the condition of the tenons where they poke thru the felloe. If they look deteriorated then my recommendation is to replace the spokes. A couple of pix show what I'm talking about. The "after whacks" photo shows what happened when I placed the tenon of a suspect spoke on the edge of my workbench and whacked the spoke twice with hammer. The deteriorated tenon sheared right off.
IMG_2706.jpg
Wheel from Stutzman - coat the tenons with paint or varnish to protect them
Wheel from Stutzman - coat the tenons with paint or varnish to protect them
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Re: Thoughts on when to get wood wheels rebuilt?

Post by John Codman » Sat Apr 30, 2022 10:32 pm

To answer the question posed in the OP: I would rebuild the wheel or wheels when my confidence in it or them wavers. I have one such wheel that I removed from my T and replaced with a used wheel that looked better to me. On my "to do" list is to send the one that I removed to Noah Stutzman.
A couple of years back there was a post on this forum that reported a member was killed when a wheel failed and control of the car was lost. To Quote Clint Eastwood, "feeling lucky?"


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Re: Thoughts on when to get wood wheels rebuilt?

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Sun May 01, 2022 2:45 am

Wheel safety is a risky matter. I rarely mention this. But if one were to take a really good wheel. and cut one inch out of a single spoke? IF (HUGE big big IF) the wheel is otherwise in excellent condition? The way a wheel is properly assembled, the outer rim squeezes in while the inner hub and spokes push out, an enclosed circle built of triangles (the single strongest geometric shape!)? The entire assembly is in a constant state of mechanical pressure. One single spoke in effect missing (with all the required tightness intact!) will not seriously weaken the wheel. Would I recommend running a wheel with such a broken spoke? NO! Get it fixed or properly rebuilt.

I think it was about a year ago? Russ Furstnow posted a thread about a near disaster when a model T recently bought by a member of his family (if I recall correctly?) was being driven and a front wheel simply disintegrated! From the photos, it was apparent that the wooden felloe had split allowing the whole wheel to just fall apart!
I never saw any follow-up or serious discussion of the cause. But it does illustrate the need to closely examine wooden wheels for any signs of something not right. Whether the problem could have been caught before the wheel collapsed or not? I do not know. I would very much have liked to go down and spend a couple hours examining the wheel just for the opportunity to learn from it.


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Re: Thoughts on when to get wood wheels rebuilt?

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Sun May 01, 2022 8:38 am

Wayne Sheldon wrote:
Sun May 01, 2022 2:45 am

I think it was about a year ago? Russ Furstnow posted a thread about a near disaster when a model T recently bought by a member of his family (if I recall correctly?) was being driven and a front wheel simply disintegrated! From the photos, it was apparent that the wooden felloe had split allowing the whole wheel to just fall apart!
I never saw any follow-up or serious discussion of the cause. But it does illustrate the need to closely examine wooden wheels for any signs of something not right. Whether the problem could have been caught before the wheel collapsed or not? I do not know. I would very much have liked to go down and spend a couple hours examining the wheel just for the opportunity to learn from it.
Wayne,

I believe in Russ' case, the wheels looked pristine, due to the cracks and voids having been filled with some "filler" and then nicely painted. It was only after the wheel collapsed that the hidden damage was made known.


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Re: Thoughts on when to get wood wheels rebuilt?

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Sun May 01, 2022 8:48 am

My take on discussions about wheels is this... While I might consider using the wheel shown by the OP as-is, on MY car, I would never advise anyone else to do the same. I also would be extremely hesitant to suggest a wheel "repair" to anyone, not knowing their ability to carry out said repair and not actually viewing the damage with my own eyes. The best advice I can give is, "get the wheels respoked." I know then that you'll have the best possible wheel. Happy touring!! :)


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Re: Thoughts on when to get wood wheels rebuilt?

Post by Dropacent » Mon May 02, 2022 12:34 pm

Not the best idea. Like Scott said, a nice wall hanger.
AF76C3D9-79C6-4CD1-BD2E-1885B4DAA347.jpeg


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Re: Thoughts on when to get wood wheels rebuilt?

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Tue May 03, 2022 3:52 am

From Russ,
"Wayne,

I believe in Russ' case, the wheels looked pristine, due to the cracks and voids having been filled with some "filler" and then nicely painted. It was only after the wheel collapsed that the hidden damage was made known."
[/quote]

(Me)
That was the impression I got from studying the pictures I did see. I would really have liked to examine the wheel up close to see the details in the breakage and how it may have been covered up.

On my wheels that I rework, I purposefully leave flaws somewhat exposed. I want the warts and repairs to be visible so that someone can know that is a spot to keep an eye on.
Wooden fellies do often begin to split around the spoke tenon. A little soapy soak and my big blacksmith's vise can press them back to shape. A good cleaning and good gluing pressed in the blacksmith's vise again and the felly should be nearly as good as new. But I don't stop there. One or two steel rivets put sideways through the felly at the site of the split and that felly should never split again for many years. I do not nicely finish over those rivets. I leave them showing so that their presence is not forgotten.
The typical wooden felly model T wheel has six rivets going through the felly into the steel rim. Two at each join plate, and usually one slightly off center in each of the two felly halves. I usually add at least one, usually two, and depending on various concerns, I have added as many as four more rivets into the steel rim.
My wheels are painted, but not really nicely so. They look fine from ten feet away. To me, as solid and tight as they feel? Flaws and all, they look great up close!
They are after all, over a hundred years old now.

However, unless one wants (needs?) to really get into how these wheels are put together and the hows and whys of what makes a wheel both strong and resilient? The only good advice is to have them rebuilt right by one of the several good wheelwrights in the country.
Stutzman's is considered by many people on this forum to be the best. I won't argue against that. I do understand that there is a good wheelwright in the PNW Oregon or Washington (I don't have the details). And the Vintage Wheel Shop in Sonora California I understand is still doing very good work. For people in the Western states? Either of those should be good to look into.
There also was I understand, and may still be? Another wheelwright in Texas. I was told about them, and don't know any more than that.

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