Frontenac Heads

[FULLBORE]

What do you think of Frontenac Heads? Any downside? Reliability? Parts availability?

[speedytinc]

Story I got from Chris Eggsgart, (AKA Billy Poobah quite famous local hill climb & T go fast guy) was that they were cast from slag or left over, end pour iron & were prone to more cracking. Where as Rajo's were cast in fresh iron for a more reliable head. FWIW.

[Dropacent]

I think Billy was pulling yer crank. Never heard that one before. I’ve had 3 with no issues. Maybe just lucky, I’ll take that over good any day. The fronty was the Chevrolet bros, real history there!

[Dan McEachern]

My local head welder ( a real one, not a guy with an arc welder) has done extensive repairs to two DO Fronty heads and he told me that they were cast out of the worst cast iron he had ever welded. On the other hand, Ive had 2 8 valve heads repaired by another shop and no comments from them, but the latter repairs were much less extensive- just seats and water jacket fixes.

[Dropacent]

I will always defer to Dan’s experiences. I’ve been lucky, though. I’ve not owned a fronty with damage but have had two Rajos and a Roof OHV with. With most SOHC and DOHC heads, they’ve been thoroughly thrashed, and much different than most common heads I’ve owned. We know rajos were made in Wisconsin, and I always thought Frontenacs were made in meechigan , with a ton of good foundries available. BUT, not sure.
I still don’t think a blanket statement fits in this case.

[TXGOAT2]

Old head castings may have been subjected to abuse, such as overheating, overloading, spending time on the bottom of a lake or ocean bay, exposure to sulfurous fuels, stresses from overtorquing, having been in a vehicle or structure fire, and more. Old exhaust manifolds frequently show obvious signs of abuse and hard use, and some heads have been treated about as badly, and, like exhaust manifolds, even normal use is fairly stressful on cylinder heads.

[speedytinc]

I will always defer to Dan’s experiences. I’ve been lucky, though. I’ve not owned a fronty with damage but have had two Rajos and a Roof OHV with. With most SOHC and DOHC heads, they’ve been thoroughly thrashed, and much different than most common heads I’ve owned. We know rajos were made in Wisconsin, and I always thought Frontenacs were made in meechigan , with a ton of good foundries available. BUT, not sure.
I still don’t think a blanket statement fits in this case.

What was conveyed by Chris, was to save money, Fronty heads were poured with what ever was left over during a casting run from a primary job @ the contracted foundry. If the last of the bucket was a bit slaggy, it might make for a poor quality casting. I am sure the earliest pourings from that same pot were just fine. This making for inconsistencies in casting quality. Rajo, apparently paid the premium for the fresh casting load making a consistent top quality casting. So the story goes.

[Dropacent]

John, respectfully, that’s a tough story for anyone to know from the teen and twenty’s. Maybe good folklore, but FMHi , and lots of years and hours in foundry’s , back then they had much better virgin iron. I doubt they relied on scrap nearly as much as nowadays. Checking a quick online history, the chev brothers Frontenac stuff was not produced very long, and seems more in the era where they were near Indianapolis quite a bit more. Im actually surprised to learn they were on life support in the early 1920s. I’m guessing the Richmond area for foundry work which was a hotbed of cast model T parts and accessory items. Dozens of water pump makers, Robert Hassler and hundreds of thousands Hassler shock parts. . There is something that ties the Frontenac name in with the Chevrolet’s , both french backgrounds. ( I think)
Maybe making door knockers, you may throw some small odd metal into, but they needed a pretty good crucible of good iron to cast just one head. No foundryman I’ve ever known wants his name on a bad batch of metal, and just can’t see having his heads done when the foundry had 50# of bad metal to broom out the door. Can’t see it, can’t believe it, respectfully.

[speedytinc]

You would know better than I. Could be folklore, could be propaganda from the rajo camp. The story has stuck with me for decades.
Chris was dead serious in his presentation. We will never know for sure.

[Dropacent]

All good, John. Love these stories of these small companies. From my small experience, I’ve probably seen a half dozen Rajo heads to every fronty. That really doesn’t mean much. Maybe Timmy Moore will weigh in.

[Henry K. Lee]

My personal experiences..., I would never run one and rely on it. Too many in my shop over the years with either abuse as others have stated above or from my observation.., crap quality control and iron used. Just Sayin'

Hank

[Tim Moore]

[url][/https://drive.google.com/file/d/1O4X2q0 ... rivesdkurl]

Can't get a photo to post but maybe the link will work. Many Frontenac heads have this "MF" on top and I have been told this stands for Milwaukee Foundry and is seen on other overheads. If true this doesn't mean this foundry was exclusive for Frontenac for the entire operation (I am guessing about 1919 to 1929) and the Frontenac corp. Was in Indianapolis.

What is interesting is that Milwaukee is about 20 miles from Racine WI and the RAJO heads were named for RAcine and JOe Jagersberger the "inventor". Also Milwaukee is about 20 miles from Waukesha WI as in Waukesha-Ricardo or the Ricardo heads or Waukesha heads. It would be a strong bet for me that this foundry produced some or all the heads at some time.

As far as quality of materials I have no knowledge of casting compounds or processes. Of course we all know castings crack from heating and cooling and uneven extremes (not from being in a lake). Design of the head such as a DO Frontenac where all 4 intakes are on one side and exhaust on the opposite and running flat out for 500 miles would be torture. The DO were frequently drilled on top for a water manifold to help circulation. Most overheads have the intake and exhaust valves almost touching so if they ran low on coolant that could be a problem.

I like Frontenac equipment because it was famous at the Indianapolis speedway but also like Rajo's. I am not convinced either has superior materials and the builder of the motor decides who will win.

By the way, the 3 Chevrolet brothers, Art, Louis, and Gaston came from Switizerland (the Provence of "Frontenac" if I remember correctly) and were bicycle racers. I think they came into Canada first. Later did well founding GM and lost that. It did not end well for any of them.

Tim Moore

[TXGOAT2]

Iron can suffer from long exposure to mineralized water, either by long-term submersion or by use of mineralized (or oxygenated) water in cooling systems. Head gasket leaks or combustion chamber cracks can turn coolant in to a witch's brew of nasty stuff.

[Henry K. Lee]

Their family came from there but history in print proves otherwise. Just Sayin'

[Henry K. Lee]

And there is a lot more where that came from.....

[Wayne Sheldon]

Old head castings may have been subjected to abuse, such as overheating, overloading, spending time on the bottom of a lake or ocean bay, exposure to sulfurous fuels, stresses from overtorquing, having been in a vehicle or structure fire, and more. Old exhaust manifolds frequently show obvious signs of abuse and hard use, and some heads have been treated about as badly, and, like exhaust manifolds, even normal use is fairly stressful on cylinder heads.

The worst abuse most ohv heads for model Ts have suffered over the years has been from the hobbyists! I have met several people years ago that collected and hoarded ohv heads for model Ts. Every one they bought, no matter how good the condition was, the first thing they did was send it out to their favorite machinist and have the head shaved to increase compression to the maximum. Wrong on so many levels! First, most of those people never ran more than a few heads in their lives, but had a dozen or more sitting on a shelf that they had ruined by cutting the head too thin. They cannot be "uncut" by people wanting a reliable head! A head is MANY times more likely to crack because there isn't enough material left on the deck! Head gasket is less likely to hold. Overheating more likely. The downsides go on and on!

Secondly, the upsides? Are there any? The reality is that the difference in compression for an additional eighth or even quarter inch of shaving the head doesn't make that much difference. Certainly, if one is pushing to be king of the hill on some F.A.S.T. hill climb? And spending big amounts of money to beat all the best? Yeah, one may be justified to push the limits on even a few heads with major modifications. But one would need to begin by choosing the best right head to begin with! Any common old medium range eight valve head just won't do! So cutting a dozen heads to the max still makes NO sense whatsoever!

But that is my silly opinion.

[Henry K. Lee]

Wayne..., You nailed it! Amen Brother.

Hank

[TXGOAT2]

Century-old hot rod stuff.....

[Dropacent]

I would like the word spread I will gladly take any Frontenac head off anyone because they think or heard the metal is bad. Chris was quite the character, but I only knew him through many years of his wild adventures in the MTFCA mag. As for bad metal in the Frontys, I still call bullshit to that one, hence my offer to take them off anyone’s hands. I agree with all above about those real special heads being run hard and put away wet. Tim Moore knows more about them than anyone alive. My choice has always been a good ol single port “T” fronty, as it’ll take me faster than I ever want to go in a T anyway. I love the design, the lines, and IMHO , bulletproof. From 20hp to 40hp easy peasy, no stress. No desire to visit the salt flats or the undertaker sooner than required.
In 2022, Fronty heads are getting very dear. When was the last time you saw one for sale? Chaffin’s repro Rajo has brought the price way down on original Rajo heads. I personally don’t get that, as I’d have no desire for an aluminum head on a T .that’s my opinion. I guess it’s easy to just write a check for a complete rig than to buy a used one and have to do a bit more work. Again, just thinking out loud and JMHO

[Henry K. Lee]

And we all have had different experiences with one thing or another.., the journey of life shows either it’s ugly or pretty head. Pun intended!

Hank

[babychadwick]

As I remember roof equals speed and problems rajo equals power and reliability and fronty well thats somewhere in between.