1915 vs 1916

[Scott C.]

I am looking at a 1915 runabout. The engine number is 1150130. I believe that puts it around late March of 1916. So, I guess my question is, would it have the 1915 features such as brass radiator and light rings? What should I look for to determine whether it is a 1916 or a 1916?

[TRDxB2]

From the encyclopedia
1911-1912
Higher cast filler neck style which was introduced in summer of 1910. About January, 1911, a hole for the choke rod was added to the left front side trim piece. Beginning in about October, 1911, the drawings indicate holes for the rivets which now secured the filler neck to the top tank. Standard “Ford” script without “Made in USA.” Newer seamed construction, typical of all later brass radiators. Radiators now all made by Ford. The “Ford” on the radiator core was not used after late 1910. In mid-1912 holes were added in the sides for the gas lamp hose, with a soldered-in-place pipe from side to side for the headlamp gas. “Made in USA” under “Ford” script was added about April 16, 1912.
1912-1916
Spun-brass filler neck, riveted and soldered in place During 1914 the name plate on the back of the upper tank was eliminated and was replaced by embossing the design in the tank wall itself. In 1915 the gas tube for the lamps was eliminated. Filler cap had short fins. In 1915, too, the flanges of the side wall where they overlap the frame were made shorter. The embossing on the rear of the top tank was again changed and now indicated the month and year the radiator was manufactured.
1917-1919
Black metal shell over new radiator. Assembly mounted on pads on the frame. Filler neck and cap now nickel-plated. Water outlet hose increased in length to 3-1/2” (from 2-3/4”).
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Click on this link the are additional links to photo's https://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/I-O.htm#lamps
1915
HEADLAMPS
(All lamps appeared alike, regardless of make. Early production 1915 lamps varied; made by E & J, they had larger brass rims and lenses (8-5/8 vs 8-1/8”) than later standard style lamps. Lamps were supplied by E & J, Brown, Victor and, perhaps others. Headlamp lenses were clear glass until 1921.) Steel headlight rims specified in a letter dated June 19, 1915.
6511X with large lens rim. (E & J 456)
6511X with brass lens rim. (standard)
During the latter part of 1914 and perhaps early 1915, headlamps were fork-mounted, on the same forks as used by the carbide lamps. Early in 1915 the lamp with the riveted-in-place post became the standard. All were electric, powered by the magneto with the bulbs wired in series. Brass rims discontinued about June 1915.
SIDE LAMPS
6561X with large brass top and lens rim. (E & J #6 on early cars)
6561X with brass top and lens rim. (standard)
Interchangeable from side to side. Clear lens. Mounted from rear by means of an integral stud.
TAIL LAMPS
6568X with brass top and large lens rim. (E & J #7 early cars)
6568X with brass top and lens rim (standard)
Similar in style to the side lamps, the large lens in the door was red, with a small clear lens on the side facing the license plate. Mounted from the rear. Side and tail lights were kerosene.
1916-1917
Head, Side, and Tail lights were now all painted black but continued the style of 1 915.
Typical 1916-26 side light

Typical 1916-23 tail light
Identical to the later 1915 lamps except for the elimination of the brass trimming. Painted all black.

[JTT3]

March 20th 1916, was the build day. If I’m not mistaken you could have 3 rivets on the top of each fender, rear fenders will have a curved pattern on top. Brass radiator, louvered hood made of steel though aluminum could have still been in stock, black headlight rims, all black sidelights non brass door but brass top on chimney on some same with taillight. Electric magneto horn, horn button on the steering column, wire horn tube attached with curved tabs. Steering wheel is 15” diameter. One piece coil box lid, steel covered coil box switch. You may have ribbed pedals on an aluminum hogshead with reinforced bosses between bolt holes on the hogshead depending on what was left in stock. Cast hogshead is normal with non ribbed pedals, Inspection cover on hogshead will be flat steel. Hope that helps.

[George Mills]

Off the top of my head....

Radiator still brass...lights now black all the way around...

While evidence exists that the aluminum hogshead still appeared on some fiscal 1916's, it's a fair consensus that no evidence exists after early '16 build. The hogshead for that serial number would then be cast iron and also the pedals smooth. (Don't try the magnet trick...lol...I had a refrigerator magnet stick to a hogshead once...turned out hogshead WAS aluminum, and the Ford magnets beneath liked the fridge magnet)

Speaking of aluminum, the hood on a 16 is NOT. (A '15 yes).

Hubcaps still brass.

Steering column for sure had horn wire conduit and top mounted pushbutton switch

Not too many other changes that would be obvious.

There's a joke in the community. The amount of '15 survivors is the wrong % against original build numbers ( appears way to high ) where the amount of '16 survivors as a % to quantity built is also appearing off (appears too low). Yes, you can make the one into the other but find a '16 done up right at a fancy car show? Truly a thing of unique beauty and worthy of being 'the last of the brass' in spite of the HCCA disqualifying 16's built after December 31, 1915 as 'brass era' participants.

Good luck!

[Wayne Sheldon]

No easy cutoffs! 1915 is a very confused year model. Lengthy production delays, design changes, improvements in production couple with cost-cutting ideas, all resulted in a convoluted mess. But very beautiful cars!
1916 is a bit easier. For all practical purposes, all 1916 model year cars had the brass radiator, corresponding hood and former, and flat front fenders to go with it. This style continued until basically the end of August of 1916. Like most automobile manufacturers in most years? The next year's model would be brought out sometime around September of October of the ending year. So while many thousands of black shrouded radiator Fords were produced in late calendar year 1916, they were generally considered 1917 models, regardless of how some states registered them.

The car you are looking at is a 1916 model. That does not mean it has to stay that way?? Although I hope it does. There aren't enough authentically maintained 1916 or 1917 model Ts. Way too many of them have been turned into 1915s. I love the HCCA, and support them the way their rules are. But I do think they could have worked it out a better way. Regardless of that? I think the rules should be kept as they are.! Any significant change now would either harm cars and owners now in the clubs, or water down the restrictions that make the club special. Fords or otherwise, the earliest cars need clubs and activities geared toward their speeds and limitations. There are many clubs and activities suitable for later cars. And a line had to be drawn somewhere.

All that aside. The 1915 "style" and "model" year was very transitional, with minor changes being made almost every month (of the very short year!), and longer than normal crossover times while both earlier and later variations were being produced and sold! The last of the 1915 model year cars in general appearance were more like most of 1916 than they were most of the short 1915 model year.
Early 1916 model year cars manufactured September through December of 1915 calendar year might have some 1915 details. Both the hood and the hogshead switched from aluminum to steel beginning around October (maybe even September according to some?). However the aluminum parts were still showing up on cars produced into calendar 1916. It should be remembered that the one millionth model T was produced on December 10, 1915. It was an historic moment, with official photographers taking dozens of pictures! Many years ago, I was privileged to look very closely at a number of large photos in a private collection. If I recall correctly, the one million engine had an aluminum hogshead. However, in the photos, more than a dozen other engines on the same assembly line could be seen well enough to tell what their hogsheads were made of! And more than half of them had iron hogsheads.

1915 details.
Closed cars got electric horns beginning in Sept/Oct 1914. Open body cars began with a bulb horn, which began to give way to the electric horn about June of 1915. Evidence indicates some cars got bulb horns as late as August of 1915. The brass trim on the lamps ran a similar timeline, with black rims beginning early July of 1915. Again, evidence indicated some cars got brass trimmed lamps nearly two months later.
Early 1915 style cars had a transitional front fender with the front bill and ribs common to all 1915 front fenders, but they had the four rivet fender bracket like a 1914 or earlier fenders had. I have never heard of a "change date" to the three rivet front fenders. However, I suspect they began about February or March of 1915. Back before most hobbyists insisted on changing the odd fenders out? There were a fair number of Model Ts with build dates in April of 1915 that had the four rivet front fenders.
The three rivet rear fenders didn't hold up really well, and were replaced by a larger fender bracket late in calendar 1915. The larger bracket actually had eight rivets! Four on the upper part of the fender, two on the lip under the outer bead, and two on the inner skirt!
1916 after the one millionth car seemed to settle in somewhat for the final year of polished brass radiator Fords. However, there are indications that SOME 1916 model year model Ts got the compound curve rear fenders intended for the next year's model.

[Original Smith]

The easiest way to tell a '16 from a '15 is the spark and throttle rods are the new design, like a '17 or later.

[MWalker]

Some '15 features: Brass trim on the lights, aluminum hood, aluminum hogshead with ribbed pedals, 3-rivet rear fender brackets.
Some '16 features: Black painted trim on the lights, steel hood, iron hogshead with smooth pedals, 4-rivet rear fender brackets.

[Scott C.]

Thanks for all the help! The car is partially dissembled. The guy was working on it when he passed away a couple of years ago. They claim that the engine was rebuilt. It has been converted to electric start, so it has a cast iron hogshead with smooth pedals. It is just setting in the car and is not bolted in. There is no documentation to show who did it and what was done. It has 3 rivets on the top of the front fenders. I am positive that they are reproductions. The lights all have the brass rings. They claim that the wheels were rebuilt by a local body shop, but it does haves some loose spokes. I doubt that is true, most likely the body shop cleaned up and painted them, she would probably not know the difference. We all know that autobody shops are not wheel rights. The title says 1915, the VIN has a digit missing but all other are correct to match the engine number. I assume that is an error by the DMV when it was last transferred. My onion right now is, although it is a nice car, it is most likely a converted 1916.

[speedytinc]

What is the engine casting date? That should be definitive.

[rickd]

[ My onion right now is, although it is a nice car, it is most likely a converted 1916.]

Trust your onion.

[TRDxB2]

From the MTFCA Encyclopedia
ENGINE SERIAL NUMBERS
The engine number was also the serial number of the car. Engines were numbered when they were completed, and for the most part went into a chassis within a day or so. However, some engines were assembled and numbered at branch assembly plants. Highland Park would ship a block of engine-number records to an assembly plant and these engines might be made weeks or months afterwards. Consequently, engine numbers can only be used to date the "engine" NOT the car.
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For what its worth
The title serves as proof of ownership and includes identifying information about the vehicle, such as its make, model, and vehicle identification number (VIN) and owner and financing information etc.
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So for a Model T: if the Title has the same serial number of the engine is does not validate the year of the car, basically its the same conclusion if the the engine number doesn't match that number on the title.
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After 100 years
If a restored vehicle has all of its parts be correct for a Model & Year (obtained from other vehicles) with a matching Title, is it original? How would one tell?
If a Model T has some miscellaneous part incorrect for its Model & Year with a Title matching the core, does that change its Model Year?
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A Model T Model/Year or Year of Manufacture is what ever the Owner perceives it to be.

[Scott C.]

The casting date on the side of the engine block is 3-17-16, if my memory serves me right.

I agree on the perception of a Model T. My main concern, if I buy it, is having the title correct to year and serial number. That makes it much easier to get it titled. When you get law enforcement and the DMV involved things need to be correct. Just trying to avoid headaches in advance!

[TRDxB2]

The casting date on the side of the engine block is 3-17-16, if my memory is correct.

Do you know if the engine was every replaced in the past?

[JTT3]

Scott are the wheels wood felloe non demountable? Are they all the same size or do you have 30x31/2 & 30x3? I’d see if there was oil in the crack case. If not you could remove the inspection plate and see if you have a full stack of shims on all the caps & if the pistons are aluminum. You said the hogs head wasn’t bolted down, you could remove it and look at the condition of the bands and drums. That will also give you an idea of rebuild or refurbished, big difference. Take a valve cover off and see if you have adjustable lifters. Most recent rebuilds probably will have aluminum pistons, adjustable lifters, oil scoops on the rods & fairly new band material. As said previously lot of real 16’s are made into 15’s. There’s a title that says 1915, I don’t believe I’d muddy the water with the DMV.

[Scott C.]

The hogshead is bolted down, the starter is hanging in place with no bolts and the bendix is on it. I am concerned that the mag coil might be damaged. The wheels are non-demountable with wood fellows. I did not look at the front tires to see if they were 30x3 or 30x3.5. They were kind of stand offish about letting me look at it. She had a family friend there to talk to me. They had it rolled out of the garage with the doors closed and were rolling back in when I left, so I did not get any pictures.
The DMV and a law enforcement officer has to be involved because the number on the title is missing a digit. I don't think they liked it that I noticed it and pointed it out to them.

[david_dewey]

It is a '16, I have a Dec 10, 1915 and it is a '16, although one of the first million Ts! (probably a few hours before #1,000,000). At that point it can have an aluminum hogs head, but more likely the early cast iron one (there are differences from the later ones, the early ones basically look like an aluminum one). By the time yours was assembled it SHOULD have brass radiator, plain headlights, side lamps could have brass tops, but more likely steel, electric horn with button on top of steering column tube, flat, not crowned rear fenders. brass hubcaps, brass screws on the windshield hinges and brass windshield retaining channel, Switchbox cover is blued tin with stamped lettering, probably brass plated spark & throttle rods and quadrant, but not necessarily. Yes, on a '16 you don't get much "Bling"! BUT! they are a one year production only trim, so try to keep it correct.

[JTT3]

I understand but depending on the asking price & your seriousness to purchase, you should ask if you can inspect it closely, including doing a few things in the previous post I submitted, with the commitment if it is as they said you will buy it. It would be far better knowing what your getting than finding out when you get it home. There is another thread concerning a recently purchased roadster and the issues they found upon a close inspection after buying it.
Caveat emptor.

[Scott C.]

A couple of the sparkplugs were loose, so I unscrewed them and tried to look inside the cylinders. The valves appear to be clean and fresh. I could not see the pistons because they were not at the top and the crank is not installed. The main bearing bolts and nuts looked new. It has the 2 piece valve covers. The paint is decent with scratches and chips as expected. The seat and top are rough and in need of replacement. It does have the early over the axle spring perches and wishbone.

[Scott_Conger]

it makes no difference as to what the "year" is on the title...just the VIN on the block is vs. the title VIN and I'll bet the local sheriff can solve that right there in the garage

[Steve Jelf]

The old phrase is buying a pig in a poke. My rule: No inspection, no sale. I learned that rule the hard way.

[TRDxB2]

The hogshead is bolted down, the starter is hanging in place with no bolts and the bendix is on it. I am concerned that the mag coil might be damaged. The wheels are non-demountable with wood fellows. I did not look at the front tires to see if they were 30x3 or 30x3.5. They were kind of stand offish about letting me look at it. She had a family friend there to talk to me. They had it rolled out of the garage with the doors closed and were rolling back in when I left, so I did not get any pictures.
The DMV and a law enforcement officer has to be involved because the number on the title is missing a digit. I don't think they liked it that I noticed it and pointed it out to them.

What is the position of the missing digit on the Title. ..... "She had a family friend there to talk to me. They had it rolled out of the garage with the doors closed and were rolling back in when I left, so I did not get any pictures. The DMV and a law enforcement officer has to be involved because the number on the title is missing a digit. I don't think they liked it that I noticed it and pointed it out to them." Perhaps they may not like having law enforcement involved