Oh darn!

[Oldav8tor]

I've been helping another new Model T owner assess the car he bought and get it running. It is a 1920 Roadster that he got in an online auction. Overall the car is pretty clean, but that tells us nothing about the mechanicals. The auction consisted of four Roadsters, and supposedly the deceased owner enjoyed "restoring" one car a year. Once restored, they supposedly were driven very little before the next project was begun.

Looking at the engine and running it's serial number shows the engine to be a December 1925 build, which was interesting inasmuch that it has 1920 pedals. Removing the hogshead cover I saw that rather than the expected wider brake drum the drums were all the same width. Because the hogshead is from an "improved" car, the brake band is improperly positioned on the brake drum.

Has anyone ever encountered this before? What are the likely consequences of running it this way for awhile so that we can get some miles on the car to better allow us to assess the condition of the engine itself?

[Steve Jelf]

I haven't faced this situation before, but I would be inclined to run it as is while looking for a pre-26 hogshead, recognizing that the braking is less efficient than normal. That means special attention to planning stops, engine braking, and pulsed braking. Those who have experienced this may have other ideas.

[JTT3]

If you do run it per Jelf’s warning, I’d stay on the back roads where there’s little traffic but I’d address this as soon as possible. I have had the experience of the reverse of this. Large brake drum with an earlier hogshead. That T was run for years like that but the narrow band can full contact with the drum. The one your working on doesn’t.

[JohnM]

I would take this as a clue of how the car was done. This is "good enough" to drive two blocks for ice cream. All else may be fine, but I would comb it over good before driving it any further.

[Steve Jelf]

Restored means taken down to nuts and bolts and every piece made like new, and reassembled correctly with correct parts to make the "new" car as much like an original one as possible. But to some folks it means "close enough fer gummint work" or "that don't hurt the nunnin' of it none". Looks like this one is in the latter category.

[MichaelPawelek]

We have all seen that occasional restored Model T which meant a new paint job and nothing done to the mechanical parts…….

[Steve Jelf]

We have all seen that occasional restored Model T which meant a new paint job and nothing done to the mechanical parts…….

Yeah, I once bought that car. It taught me a lot.

[Wayne Sheldon]

That isn't safe to drive even a block! And if I am saying that? Me, who has joked about a lot of things I have run, and some cars for many years and miles, that I would not recommend others try to do?
That brake band hanging over the edge like that is just asking for it to hang up on the clutch finger bosses and do a sudden with NO warning twist the band off the back end and begin breaking everything in sight! It could very well result in a total loss of service brake followed by a rapid munching of the transmission itself.
Beg, borrow, buy, an earlier hogshead and take the time to change and adjust the bands properly before driving. And while inside? Give the rest of what you can see a "twice over".
And yes. Big RED flag wondering what else someone really screwed up?

[Oldav8tor]

Ok. For those of you who’ve done transmission work, which is easier, changing the hogshead or replacing the brake drum with one for a 26? Remember, the rest of the engine is a 26.

Will a early hogshead even fit on a 26?

[Humblej]

Tim, there is another option, to replace the entire engine and trans with a rebuilt 1920 engine and trans. That engine may be a can of worms too.

[Stephen_heatherly]

I would replace the hogshead with a 25 and earlier one before driving the car. When we got my 26 coupe it had this exact issue. I adjusted the band so the pedal wouldn't bottom out and yet the brake was so poor it was barely capable of slowing the car down as we rolled it off the trailer. Also, the lining is going to get ripped and shredded by the clutch pressure fingers if run like this. Replacing the hogshead is not too difficult, even with the engine in the car.

Stephen

[speedytinc]

Ok. For those of you who’ve done transmission work, which is easier, changing the hogshead or replacing the brake drum with one for a 26? Remember, the rest of the engine is a 26.

Will a early hogshead even fit on a 26?

Easier is changing the hogs head.
Going all 26 gives you 50% more brake, steel clutch shoes & a way better HH mount up for a non bending pan.
No question what I would do. Its more about when. Now or later.

Thinking outside the box & nothing I have done. What about riveting a narrow band lining offset on a wide band? Temporary quick fix until you ready for the 26 drum conversion motor pull.

[Norman Kling]

Look underneath. Do you have a 3 dip inspection plate under the engine or a 4 dip? It's possible the former owner wanted 4 dip and changed the crankcase and hogs head. What kind of pedals does it have? Are the low and brake shaped like the reverse pedal or are they wide like a 26? You might get by with changing the crankcase and hogs head to the 3 dip.
Norm

[Oldav8tor]

OK - it has a four dip pan. The pedals are typical of 1920, not '26. We're going to take a closer look at it tomorrow (Friday). As I see it, our options are (1) replace the hogshead with one designed for a narrow brake drum , or (2) Pull the engine, rebuild the transmission with correct 1926 parts.

I don't believe it is an option to do nothing.

We are going to go thru the car and check it's systems as best we can. This is my friends first Model T and we don't want him to get too discouraged.... We've all experienced some trauma when it comes to owning a Model T. Our goal is to help him get the car running in a manner that he can safely enjoy it.

[JTT3]

Tim, yes earlier hogshead will fit the only thing you lose is the additional support gained with the two block bolts that go into the ears cast into the 26/27 hogshead that make the assembly more rigid. John & Stephen have a great perspective on this. One issue that maybe caused the narrow tranny to be used in the build would be the pan. I can’t remember the date but a 26/27 transmission will not fit into a pan that doesn’t have the bump out pressed into the later pans but I’m sure someone here knows. You can do what you want but if available, I would -
1 verify that you have a pan that will accept a large drum tranny, this will determine if you have the below choices
2-decide if you want the correct transmission for the hogshead or not, do you want to remove the engine or are you willing to lose the additional support for the pan via the improved hogshead or just replace the hogshead, Remember over 12 million Ts were made with out the improved supports. If taking the less invasive approach, Locate an earlier hogshead and rework it
3- if you decide the 26/7 style is what you want you’ll need to locate & rebuild a 26/7 transmission or locate a 26/7 brake drum to install on your current transmission, mark the transmission & the crank flange so if you use the existing transmission you’ll be able to place it back where it’s been running in the fourth main bearing, remove the engine, break it down to be able to access the transmission.
Recommendation- if you’re this far in you should really inspect at least the drums for cracks on the drum surface and the webs. Check all tolerances correct as needed
4- Replace the drum or transmission (if you replace the drum or transmission be sure there is a tail shaft plug in the shaft!) install
5-depending on what you do you may have to replace the fourth main. Measure for tolerance.
6- once installed either way set the gap between the tranny & field coil 0.025-0.040
7- reassemble and install

IMHO. These are the minimum things to do but I’m sort of the type that if I’ve taken the engine out, I’m going through everything. It only took me a few times buying Ts that had rebuilt engines (re. painted) or ran when parked to learn to factor the price in that you’re going full Monty.
I’m 100% sure I’ve forgotten something but again this is just some things I would consider in your position.

[ironhorse]

You may need a new brake band standing by. I pulled one out like that and it looked sorta like it belonged on a cone clutch. I was unable to fix it where it didn't chatter when coming to a stop!

[RajoRacer]

Why not just install the correct wide brake band with new lining & install the correct wide pedals ????? I have all the parts to fix that !

[JTT3]

Hi Steve all his drums are narrow and the wide ban would still locate with a lot of overhang I’d think, I could be wrong, never tried it.

[RajoRacer]

Got it - my mistake !

[kmatt2]

If you go with the, “change to a 1925 hogsheads”, be sure to carefully check the brake drum. In your picture, in the dark marks, it looks like there may be leading edge cracks in the brake drum due to unequal loading when the brake is used. If brake drum is cracked or has deep pits it could fail in service. If brake drum is ok and you use a different relined brake band you should be alright while you check out the rest of the car. Check out your rear wheel emergency brakes also.

[TRDxB2]

I haven't faced this situation before, but I would be inclined to run it as is while looking for a pre-26 hogshead, recognizing that the braking is less efficient than normal. That means special attention to planning stops, engine braking, and pulsed braking. Those who have experienced this may have other ideas.

I agree with the definition of "restored".
But the issue is in the fine print of the auction: as Tim stated "The auction consisted of four Roadsters, and supposedly the deceased owner enjoyed "restoring" one car a year. Once restored, they supposedly were driven very little before the next project was begun"
NOW THE ASSUMPTIONS
So was description of what the owner enjoyed doing, carried over to the four Roadsters as completed projects? Perhaps they were the next projects in line to be restored. Where are the cars he restored, sold in another auction?
Buyer be aware!

[Scott_Conger]

driven very little

is the only reason there is a brake band on it at all.

I would not drive the car. The drive plate edge is going to cut the band to ribbons in short order.

[Oldav8tor]

Quite a head scratcher, eh? Imagine my surprise when I had the owner remove the hogshead cover. In my wildest dreams I never imagined finding anything but a '26 transmission. I'm just hoping that this is not an indication of what has yet to be found. I can guarantee the car will NOT be driven in this condition. We're going to give the transmission a thorough looking-over and present the owner with the options. We're also going to look everything else over as best we can. I appreciate all the advice and comments and will keep them in mind as we proceed.

Considering what we found, it's a good thing the car wasn't driven more. The four Roadsters I mentioned were all in the same auction, along with other estate items. All attracted pretty good prices. Ironically, the car my friend ended up getting is not one he had much interest in when we did a pre auction visit. He was most interested in a 1925 but that went for more $ than he wanted to spend. All the cars looked great but then I don't have X-Ray vision.

I remember what it was like to be a new T owner. I didn't know what to watch out for and very easily could have run into similar issues with my car. Fortunately I made some new friends who were there to guide me and all in all it has been a rewarding experience on many levels. You have to admit, it doesn't get much better than when 3-4 guys get together to help a newcomer work on his car. Everybody wins and you make new friends who'll be there when you need them. I call it "The Model T Way."

[speedytinc]

Any one buying a T should EXPECT to pull the motor for a rebuild. Maybe you get lucky & dont need a Babbitt job.
Were it mine, I would be real happy to find what you did in this T. (almost) A wide drum - ecstatic.
You have most of the best possible power plant, except for that narrow drum.
One weekend will fix this, barring other serious found issues. Mag working well? etc.
The pedals are even converted to match the year of the car. Count your blessings.
Delayed gratification is a bummer.

[Allan]

As usual, Wayne has nailed it. The brake band is likely to be chewed up in quick time by the clutch finger bosses. It needs immediate correction.

As others have pointed out, that is an indication that the whole thing may be of very dubious quality.

Allan from down under.

[Norman Kling]

From your picture, it appears to have the later block used on the "improved" Model T's. You have the bolts from the hogs head to the back of the block. I'm not sure what date the factory changed to that type, could have been late 1925. If so that would be the correct hogs head to go with that engine. The crankcase also matches the block and hogs head. So my thinking is that the transmission has been replaced with an earlier one, or the engine and crankcase has been replaced with a later one. So you have your choice of which parts you wish to replace to make everything fit correctly. The engine, crankcase and hogshead all match, but the transmission is older.
Norm

[Oldav8tor]

Just when I thought it couldn't get any worse......

We (my friend and the assembled minds of our small club) decided upon further inspection that the transmission should be rebuilt. It appeared some previous owner had damaged the mag ring trying to remove a starter without taking the bendix off. In addition, the rear edge of the ring gear showed significant wear. I also found a nut clinging to one of the magnets although it didn't appear to show any damage from being bounced around. The triple gears were a bit loose suggesting at a minimum the bushings needed replacement.

We pulled the engine out and removed the transmission. I'll skip over the minor discrepancies and get to the (not so) good stuff. First of all, we found a flattened can lid installed as a shim between the crankshaft and the transmission shaft. (photo 1) - Second, as we started to separate the drums we found.....well, let photos 2 & 3 tell the story. Obviously we were left with questions of "why the can lid" and "how could you break that shaft?"
What an (expensive) education we're getting.

Photo 1

Whatever was in the can cost 53¢

Photo 2

Photo 3

[RajoRacer]

Holy SH_ _ - that's going to get expensive !!!

[TXGOAT2]

I don't think you could buy a can of air today for 53 cents. That transmission is fine, just put some sawdust and banana peels in it. That broke-looking thingy might need a dab of Bondo.

[Scott_Conger]

...and now you know why it was driven "very little"!

ran when parked...just didn't move...

I tell folks, whether they bought a restored car or a barn find, that they're going to spend $1000 making it "just right" for them...if you do all of the work yourselves, that will just about cover it

WOW

[JTT3]

I don’t think I’ve ever seen that type break before. I’d check the 3rd main and make sure you don’t have any cracks around it. Still trying to figure out what failed to do that type of twisting break. Look on the bright side you were going to change the brake drum anyway. Send me a pm if you need a wide brake drum. I’ll see what I have that is decent if you don’t have one locally. You should go ahead and order the tranny bearing / bushing kit. Do check & make sure that you have no loose rivets in the drums. If you have access to a large arbor or a hydraulic press you can remove then replace them fairly easily. The trick will be reaming & balancing (static will be cheapest) everything once reaming the bearings has been completed.
Good luck rebuilding the transmission it’s actually a lot of fun.

[Oldav8tor]

Thanks for the advice - we're going to deliver the disassembled tranny and the (still assembled) engine to a highly regarded engine rebuilder here in Michigan. We want him to rebuild the tranny and give the engine a good looking over in the process. I'm hopeful but a little afraid of what else will be found. My friend has spend a fair amount of $$ already and has yet to hear the car run.

We've all faced problems keeping our Model T's running, but it is particularly disheartening to a new guy, especially when he had to work to sell his wife on the idea to begin with. Our group is doing what it can to help and get him on the road. Once these issues are fixed he should have a good car.

[TXGOAT2]

It's unfortunate that so much trouble surfaced early-on, but when the dust settles, the car should have a dependable power plant that should give a lot of reliable service. It's worth noting that some people spend vast sums to buy a brand new vehicle and encounter serious issues almmost immediately. I've had good to excellent luck buying old used cars. Two of the best cars I've ever owned cost me $15.00 and $20.00 respectively. (1947 Pontiac Torpedo,and a 1950 Ford business coupe)

[George House]

Just read your entire thread Tim... Good grief !!..It was a good decision to pull the entire power plant and send both engine and transmission for a professional assessment/rebuild. However my comment has nothing to do with your original tranny drum/band concerns. Looking at your picture of the mounted hogshead; is that magneto terminal outside oil line plugged up with a bolt ? I’ve always considered an outside oil line to #1 bearing as my favorite T accessory.