August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Discuss all things Model T related.
Forum rules
If you need help logging in, or have question about how something works, use the Support forum located here Support Forum
Complete set of Forum Rules Forum Rules
User avatar

Topic author
Rob
Posts: 535
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:53 pm
First Name: Rob
Last Name: Heyen
Location: Eastern Nebraska

August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by Rob » Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:54 am

In 1907, when Frank Kulick went through the fence during an attempt at the one mile world record with Henry Ford's six cylinder racer, Ford left track racing. Following the Ford victory in the 1909 Ocean to Ocean race, Henry Ford said he would re-enter competition. It took a year, but in August a little Ford showed up at the Brighton Beach track, and began to make a name for Ford in racing circles again.

Fortunately, photographic evidence remains of some of the races Ford entered. Below are two of them. Photos courtesy of The National Automovitive Research Library, Detroit, MI. All rights apply. Photographs by Nathan Lazarnick, a well known automotive photographer of the early 20th century.

Ford won the first race entered on the day, a four car pursuit race. The racer was entered in the 3C class, for racers with a 231-300 cubic inch displacements.

Eight cars lined up for the race. Frank Kulick and the Ford are on the outside (#10) to begin the ten mile race:
IMG_3339.PNG
Coming around the fourth turn of the first lap. Kulick is still on the outside:
IMG_3340.PNG
As the race progressed, the competion became for second place, with the Ford and Mercer taking turns in the lead:
IMG_3344.PNG
IMG_3345.PNG
Kulick and the Ford finish 3rd, less than half a second behind the Mercer. Ford is back on the national racing stage:
IMG_3338.PNG
Next, five mile free for all.

User avatar

KWTownsend
Posts: 388
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:51 pm
First Name: Keith
Last Name: Townsend
Location: Gresham, Orygun
MTFCA Number: 14778
MTFCA Life Member: YES
MTFCI Number: 16305
Board Member Since: 1999

Re: August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by KWTownsend » Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:08 pm

I love how the old time cameras have the horizontal shutter plane and the resulting photograph shows the cars "leaning forward."

: ^ )

User avatar

Topic author
Rob
Posts: 535
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:53 pm
First Name: Rob
Last Name: Heyen
Location: Eastern Nebraska

Re: August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by Rob » Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:31 pm

Keith, I wondered what caused that effect. Thanks.

Four cars ran in the five mile free for all, a Fiat, National, Palmer-Singer and Ford.

This photo shows the National ((), Palmer (18) and Ford:
IMG_3358.PNG
It's one of best "action" photos of a Ford special I've found:
IMG_3357.PNG
The Ford has a slight lead over the P-S in what I suspect is the start of the last lap:
IMG_3332.PNG
Kulick appears to look back as he takes 3rd:
IMG_3334.PNG
IMG_3326.PNG
Over the next year Ford will win and place in many race and hill climb events.

User avatar

Retro54
Posts: 65
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:40 pm
First Name: Andrew
Last Name: Blaydon
Location: Middletown
Board Member Since: 2018

Re: August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by Retro54 » Wed Apr 17, 2019 4:13 pm

Rob,

I enjoy how the passenger seat of the #10 is 'perched' squarely over the frame rail.

Forgive me, maybe I should know, but is the #10 the racer your are working on now?

Andy B.

User avatar

Topic author
Rob
Posts: 535
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:53 pm
First Name: Rob
Last Name: Heyen
Location: Eastern Nebraska

Re: August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by Rob » Wed Apr 17, 2019 4:22 pm

Andy,
I've found evidence of six racers (at least six motors). Our motor is the second largest, with displacements ranging from smaller than a standard T to 410 cubic inches. It's my opinion, and the opinion of those who began this project years ago, that the photo below is our racer. I believe it's the motor that ran in the Madi Gras races held in February, 1911. I've just learned that the motor in the racer seen above may have also been the 300 cu. in. motor, although the racer is configured a little differently.
IMG_3356.PNG

User avatar

Retro54
Posts: 65
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:40 pm
First Name: Andrew
Last Name: Blaydon
Location: Middletown
Board Member Since: 2018

Re: August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by Retro54 » Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:06 pm

Rob, sounds great! I always enjoy your enthusiasm and willingness to share!

Andy


wayne sheldon
Posts: 1522
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:13 pm
First Name: Wayne
Last Name: Sheldon
Location: Grass Valley Califunny, USA
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by wayne sheldon » Thu Apr 18, 2019 1:58 am

Fantastic stuff! Mostly that I have not read bits of before. Some interesting things to ponder, and a few questions come to mind ( if I can remember them now?).
The leaning photography is interesting. I don't know as much about it as I might think I do (?). I don't know how many cameras of different types had that effect. I do know some of the simple box cameras from that era had that horizontal plane (?) shutter, and shooting moving vehicles would result in a leaning effect. The funny thing is (on at least some of them), that one presses the shutter lever one direction for one photo, and then it presses the other direction for the next photo. Depending on which way the shutter is pressed, and which way the car is moving, the car might lean either forward or backward. We rarely see the photos with cars leaning backward. I have wondered about this for many years. I have seen a fair number of racing photos with cars to appear leaning backwards, but probably ten times as many with cars leaning forward. Maybe some cameras do only slant one way? Or maybe photographers preferred the forward leaning photos. Maybe they "blank-shot" the shutter back to get the forward lean (covered the lens and triggered it back) for the next photo. Maybe they developed their pictures, and tossed out the ones they didn't like? I don't know the reason for that. Just something I have wondered about for years.
I do have a couple era box cameras, and had hoped for years to try taking pictures of speedsters on an Endurance Run "at speed". Somehow, between film and family issues, I never did try it. Maybe one day yet? (I wonder if film and processing is still available?)

August 1910 racing a Mercer? A rather early Mercer I would think! I know they made their reputation early on.

I don't know if my mind is playing tricks on me? But I cannot place "S.P.O." as a car?

Andy B commented about the location of the single seat. I know Ford configured some of this series of racing cars so that various options were available with the seats and gasoline tanks. Cars could in a matter of minutes be changed to or from single or double seating, or a small fuel tank for short sprints to or from a larger tank for longer races or hill-climbs.

Great stuff Rob! Thank you.

User avatar

Kaiser
Posts: 392
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 5:32 am
First Name: Leo
Last Name: van Stirum
Location: Netherlands
Board Member Since: 2016

Re: August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by Kaiser » Fri Apr 19, 2019 11:19 am

Great pictures again Rob ! I marvel at what you dig up time and again.
Who said History was Bunk... :lol:

Happy Easter !
When in trouble, do not fear, blame the second engineer ! 8-)
Leo van Stirum, Netherlands
'23 Huckster, '66 CJ5 daily driver


Billdizer,Spencer In
Posts: 94
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:58 pm
First Name: Bill
Last Name: Dizer
Location: Spencer, In
MTFCA Number: 28610
MTFCA Life Member: YES
Board Member Since: 2014

Re: August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by Billdizer,Spencer In » Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:39 pm

Part of the lean effect is shutter design and shutter speed, but the film exposure speed is also part of it. The slow speed of the film, meant that the subject moved a bit during the exposure. The cameras were a bit bulky to pan along with the moving subject and keep it in the frame and focused. Depth of field, the distance from front to back that objects are all in sharp focus, is also subject to film speed and the shutter opening size. This all means that the photographer did a good job getting the action photos that he did, under difficult conditions. Movie cameras were very primative, with the speed of the film being cranked through the camera being entirely up to the camera operator as they hand cranked it!

User avatar

Rob Patterson
Posts: 62
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:08 pm
First Name: Robert
Last Name: Patterson
Location: South Coast, NSW, Australia
Board Member Since: 2003

Re: August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by Rob Patterson » Fri Apr 19, 2019 10:42 pm

Slow speed films, slow shutter speeds and any moving objects meant that a camera equipped with a blind shutter would have this effect.
Most blind shutters going from top to bottom, would expose the bottom of the image first. (Images are inverted)
This meant that where a wheel is still on the ground the blind sweeps/records that point first on the negative, and as the wheel moves forward and the blind moves up, it sweeps the image progressively until all the wheel is captured. Compared to modern shutters, this takes considerably longer, so the last point captured on the negative is further forward of the original point because of the motion of the car and the slowness of the blind in its movement.
Not all cameras had the blind moving from top to bottom. Some went the other way, hence your backwards leaning cars in some images.
Now, this is all from memory of my formal RAN/RAAF photographic training a millennia ago and I am happy to stand corrected.
Cheers,
Rob
"When everything seems to be going against you, remember that the airplane takes off against the wind, not with it." HENRY FORD

User avatar

Topic author
Rob
Posts: 535
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:53 pm
First Name: Rob
Last Name: Heyen
Location: Eastern Nebraska

Re: August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by Rob » Sat Apr 20, 2019 10:05 am

Interesting information about camera's and the "forward looking" scenes. There are a few pics of the Blitzen Benz about the time Bob Burmann set the world mile speed record (about 140 mph) at Ormond (if memory serves). I'll try to find one and post it later.

Wayne, a little S.P.O. (Societe Francaise de Petite Outillage) research. The French car sold through a NYC representative, and according to "Old Motor" only one example remains. It appears it had a just shy of 300 cubic in motor, racing in the 300 and under cubic in. class (as did Ford in several races). The link below had additional information from ConceptCaz:

https://www.conceptcarz.com/z22230/spo-raceabout.aspx


IMG_3392.JPG
IMG_3391.PNG

User avatar

Topic author
Rob
Posts: 535
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:53 pm
First Name: Rob
Last Name: Heyen
Location: Eastern Nebraska

Re: August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by Rob » Sat Apr 20, 2019 10:46 am

A few more tidbits. Below is Ford's only competition of 1912. Frank Kulick had retired with his marriage the winter before, but the new big Ford racer was unleashed again for the Alonquin Hill Climb. The year before Ford took second place with Kulick driving a 389 cubic inch Ford Special, losing to a Benz.

This time around, the 410 cubic inch racer took first on both hills, winning the title. Kulick also drove a 228 cubic inch racer in the under 300 class.

This was quite a way for Ford to end competion, chalking up wins agains Mercer, National and Stutz in addition to several other marquees. So next time you see a Stutz or Mercer at an event, you can tell the owner a Ford beat them in head to head competition in 1911 and 12:
IMG_3396.PNG
IMG_3394.PNG
IMG_3395.PNG
To keep the Alonquin Trophy, a racer had to win the competion two years in a row. Until 1912, no marquee took the hill climb twice in a row, so the Trophy never stayed in any makers trophy case. However, Ford still has the 1912 Algonquin (not on display at The Henry Ford). The meet was never held again, allowing Ford to retain the trophy to this day.

User avatar

GEmering
Posts: 187
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:47 pm
First Name: Gene
Last Name: Emering
Location: Newton, New Jersey
Board Member Since: 2018

Re: August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by GEmering » Sat Apr 20, 2019 10:51 am

A fantastic thread with wonderful photos.
I thoroughly enjoyed reading this and seeing the photos!

Gene
Gene Emering
Newton, New Jersey


wayne sheldon
Posts: 1522
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:13 pm
First Name: Wayne
Last Name: Sheldon
Location: Grass Valley Califunny, USA
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by wayne sheldon » Sat Apr 20, 2019 4:24 pm

Thank you Rob for the S.P.O. information!
I don't know if I will mention that a Ford beat Stutz in the hill climb or not. A long time friend has six Stutz automobiles! His early Bearcat is I think a 1914. The early touring is a 1913 from Harrah's collection (I have ridden in it a couple times!). I have sat in the '14 Bearcat, but never gotten a ride. I did get a ride in the Pope Portola roadster however! Talk about an incredible car! He also has a '21 Bulldog touring and three '20s Bercats.
I also need to add, however, that he and his dad often toured with model Ts, in the model T clubs, Horseless Carriage clubs, and Endurance Runs! Good people!


Drkbp
Posts: 118
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:28 am
First Name: Kenneth
Last Name: Parker
Location: Houston, Texas

Re: August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by Drkbp » Sat Apr 20, 2019 5:55 pm

Great thread!
However, there is an error in the newspaper or periodical "write-up" regarding the first discussed eight-car race above. Rob caught it but it is confusing if you are not familiar with the way the cars were classed.
Instead of "261 to 300 cubic inches", the writer should have said "300 cubic inches and under" which fits stock chassis race classes 1-C, 2-C and 3C that were in that eight car race.
In the eight car lineup (first picture in this thread), the car next to Frank Kulick is the #7 Hupmobile, driven by A.C. Dam. The Hupmobile is a Class 1C (less than 160 cubic inch displacement) racer that had just finished second to Frank Kulick in the four car pursuit race with two other Class 2C racers.
The #3 Cole, driven by W. Endicott, near the rail is a Class 2C, 161 to 230 cubic inch racer. The rest are 231 to 300 cubic inch Class 3C stock chassis race cars!
Endicott, Kulick and Dam run a great race against the 3C's.

Thanks for the great pictures on these race cars!

Below is a picture of the #17 S.P.O. racer. It could be the one driven by Batts in the Brighton One Hour race that same day in August 1910. Who knows?
Batts must have been on the S.P.O. race team and drove the 17 car.
Attachments
No. 17 SPO - CLASS 3C RACER-Societe Francaise de Petit Ontillage.jpg


wayne sheldon
Posts: 1522
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:13 pm
First Name: Wayne
Last Name: Sheldon
Location: Grass Valley Califunny, USA
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by wayne sheldon » Sat Apr 20, 2019 6:34 pm

Interesting stuff, Ken! Thank you for the additional information information and photo.

User avatar

Rob Patterson
Posts: 62
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:08 pm
First Name: Robert
Last Name: Patterson
Location: South Coast, NSW, Australia
Board Member Since: 2003

Re: August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by Rob Patterson » Sun Apr 21, 2019 9:42 pm

Please don't ever stop posting reports of your research Rob.
Personally, I really enjoy them and I reckon from the answers of others, that I'm by no means alone.
Cheers,
Rob
"When everything seems to be going against you, remember that the airplane takes off against the wind, not with it." HENRY FORD

User avatar

Topic author
Rob
Posts: 535
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:53 pm
First Name: Rob
Last Name: Heyen
Location: Eastern Nebraska

Re: August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by Rob » Mon Apr 22, 2019 8:57 am

Thanks for the comments and information guys. Ken, I'm not sure Ford is running as a 2C (class) in the Brighton race, and may be using a 3C (231 to 300 cubic inches). Unfortunately I've not found how the racers were divided within the C1-C3 races, since they were combined, probably because there weren't enough cars in each class to run separately.

Below are two examples where Ford used two, and three different Ford Special racers and their classes. First, the Mardi Gras races held in February 1911. Ford sent two racers, both driven by Kulick. One ran in the under 230 class and one in the 3C 231-300 cu.in. class. The larger 3C Ford ran a much faster five mile race than the smaller 2C Ford, with both racers winning their race:
IMG_3410.JPG
In one of Fords last races, at the Michigan State Fairgrounds track, Ford used three racers, including the new, V-radiator now at The Henry Ford (not on display). Each Ford won an event, with the big 4C racer (410 cubic inches) beating Bob Burmann driving his world record setting Blitzen Benz. Two other Ford specials ran in the 3C and 2C classes:
IMG_3411.JPG


Drkbp
Posts: 118
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:28 am
First Name: Kenneth
Last Name: Parker
Location: Houston, Texas

Re: August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by Drkbp » Mon Apr 22, 2019 8:36 pm

Rob,
It's much easier to see what's going on in that Brighton Beach race that began this thread by looking at the race summary and the engine displacements involved. A big help is they added the car numbers in the summary for this meet.
I have attached the Brighton Beach August 1910 Race Summary below.
The race classes of the day we are looking at are: 1C = under 160 cubic inches, 2C = 161 to 230 c.i. and 3C = 231 to 300 c.i., and 301 to 450 class 4C, 451 to 600 class 5C and so on.

The second event that day, a Pursuit Race, is the "Class 1C and 2C racers" and you can tell by the other cars in that race:

The #7 car - Hupmobile is a 3-1/4" x 3-3/8" (Bore & Stroke) = 112 cubic inch ........Class 1C racer.
The #6 car - Staver-Chicago is a 4" x 4" (B&S) = 201 cubic inch ..........................Class 2C racer.
The #16 car - Black Crow is a 3-7/8" x 4-1/2" (B&S) = 212 cubic inch...................Class 2C racer.

The Class 3C race cars, 231 to 300 cubic inches, raced in the fifth event which was a Pursuit Race for them. The #20 car S.P.O. won that event. The #14 car, a Mercer, 4-3/8" x 5" (B&S) = 300.7 cubic inch Class 3C racer, (that probably started but didn't finish its pursuit race so is unlisted), joined the other Class 3C's to make up the third event, "Ten Mile, Class C, Divisions 1, 2 and 3C".

That 300.7 cubic inch Mercer is a "stock chassis racer" and not an accident. An engine displacement of 301 puts it in the 4C class! Case also runs a 300.7 cubic inch racer in Class 3C. Ford's "stock chassis racer" at this time was the standard Model T Bore & Stroke (176 c.i.) engine in chassis and two T's were entered on August 17, 1910, in the Fox River Trophy race for 2C cars at the Elgin Nationals that Fall. Kulick and Blake were listed on the entries as drivers.

When it is allowed, you can "race up" a class in races. Obviously, you cannot "race down" a class.

In this meet at Brighton Beach there are two examples of that and both drivers are big drawing cards:

The first: A.C. Dam drives the #7 car, Hupmobile, a Class 1C racer, with the Class 2C cars in the first Pursuit Race. The Ford, Staver and Black Crow are the 2C's. He takes second to Frank Kulick in that race and beats two Class 2C cars. Great race for him as I mentioned in my previous post!
The other example of "racing up a class" is the #3 car, Cole "30", a Class 2C 201 cubic inch racer driven by Bill Endicott who is another very well known driver. He races with the 3C's in the fifth event.

Frank Kulick had a very good day in the #10 car beating Bill Endicott's #3 Cole, two 3C's and the #18 car Palmer!

I attached a Black racer photo. Not real common either.

A lot of the same racers ran at Brighton Beach in the July race summaries. Must have been quite a program.
Attachments
BRIGHTON SUMMARIES AUGUST 18 - 1910.JPG
BLACK CROW 1910 2C RACER.JPG

User avatar

Topic author
Rob
Posts: 535
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:53 pm
First Name: Rob
Last Name: Heyen
Location: Eastern Nebraska

Re: August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by Rob » Tue Apr 23, 2019 8:30 am

Ken,
I had not thought about the Pursuit races (grouips), and I think your right. I wish the individual motor displacement was listed, however I haven't found a listing yet. In some events the cubic inches were publicized, but in most they weren't.

Class C were not stock cars. Below are the 1910 rules that give a good overview of how cars were classed.
IMG_3420.PNG
IMG_3421.PNG
Closeup of the Class C divisions. As the rules state, this class "has been added to afford an opportunity for competition between motors of approximately equal size, six divisions being provided according to piston displacement but without stock qualification or minimum weight restrictions." It further states this is considered an experimental or development class.

Below the divisions, the final portion of this class includes the rule that no car shall compete above it's displacement class:
IMG_3414.PNG
Kulick and his Ford ran the five mile and ten mile races in the 53-55 mph range, on a flat dirt one mile track, I'm pretty confident this wasn't a stock 176 cubic inch Model T. My suspicion is it was the 228 cubic inch Ford Special, obviously sized to stay just under the 230 cu.in. division.

Another indicator about the Ford may come from this advertisement for Bosch magnetos in "Motor World" after the races:
IMG_3415.PNG
Racers at Brighton using Bosch Magnetos included Ford. The Ford Special motors (drawings at THF) had special flywheels without the Ford magneto, and front mount magnetos for Bosch dual ignition magnetos:
IMG_3417.JPG


Drkbp
Posts: 118
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:28 am
First Name: Kenneth
Last Name: Parker
Location: Houston, Texas

Re: August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by Drkbp » Tue Apr 23, 2019 6:43 pm

It takes a bit of digging to put together the bore & stroke on these racers. It is the standard B&S to meet the "stock chassis" of the "B" class you just posted. Fun stuff, the #4 car is my car and Harvick is the man!

Two more: The Cino 4-3/8" x 5" = 300.5 c.i. 3C racer and the Corbin 4-1/2" x 4-1/4" = 270.4 c.i. 3C racer.
Whether they call them B or C you know the numeral determines the displacement if the c.i. range is not given.

Thank you for posting the A.A.A. rules for 1910.

Stock cars were exactly that, stock production automobiles. Ford raced three of them, car #1, #2 and #3, in the 1911 Algonquin Hill climb summary. A Torpedo and two open roadsters.

A.A.A. had been using the "B" for "stock chassis" displacement classes in their sanctioned races. The "C" was an experimental classification for them in March 1910, for manufacturers that: 1. didn't build enough cars to meet the stock car criteria or, 2. build cars that didn't weigh enough (like the Model T).

Ford met the stock car production numbers criteria but not the weight limit called for by the old class 2B. Ford could under the A.A.A. March 1910 rule change. Everyone else already used "C" for stripped chassis so I'm not quite sure what you are getting at. Seems like the Ford large engine experimental "non-stock chassis" would be under D or E maybe like they were at Algonquin. All the other cars with them (the 228, 389.9 and 410) were "stock chassis" race cars and to be honest it wasn't exactly fair. I guess it's all how you look at it!

The Elgin Nationals, which Kulick and Blake were registered for, was a A.A.A. sanctioned race and those rules applied. The two "stock chassis racers" were now called "2C" by A.A.A. but it was the same thing as the old 2B stock chassis. I didn't see either on the Elgin race summaries but we know what it is.

The examples of "racing up" I pointed out in the August Brighton Beach races clearly shows that the race involved couldn't be, or wasn't, sanctioned by A.A.A. That was a promoter induced situation frowned upon by A.A.A. that would disqualify any claim of a "record". Obviously, the rule existed because it was going on all over. Also, there was a tendency to call them a "free for all". See what happened when they called those two events at Brighton a "Pursuit Race"!

I was just trying to explain the split of classes but I have all the others if you want them.

Also, Brighton Beach Motordrome was found to be in conflict with A.A.A. rules when it ran a 24-hour race on May 13, 1910, that was "open to any driver". You can't do that BUT they did! Same thing, promoter induced. Big stink because someone got killed in that one I believe.

The primary requirement of a "stock chassis" racer is that the engine cylinder bore & stroke are not altered. Almost all of Ford's competition was running "stock chassis" race cars in that 1910 - 1912 era. You take the Ford light weight chassis+the modified engines put Kulick behind the wheel and.....game over.

I'm not sure I follow your magneto question/point. I don't believe that installing a Bosch Mag on a "stock chassis" Model T 176 c.i. race car is a problem for "stock chassis" designation. Same thing with rear end gears. The key was the Bore & Stroke was NOT altered to affect the displacement. That is what I have read but if you find different, let us know.

A side note,
it is clear that the Ford racing cars did not meet the 1,700-2,000 pound weight requirement that would be required to race with the 4C, or 4B racers. The quip that HF was supposed to have made about the Indy races, even if not true, was mechanically a fact in the entire race circuit. The term used countless times in write-ups, "light car" (up to 3C) and "heavy car" (4C and up) was based on weight and can easily be seen in the rules you just posted. The Ford was too light to fit the rules.
Again, thank you for posting.


Drkbp
Posts: 118
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:28 am
First Name: Kenneth
Last Name: Parker
Location: Houston, Texas

Re: August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by Drkbp » Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:30 pm

Thank you Rob for bringing up two great race events for Ford and Frank Kulick.
I'll go ahead and post this regarding New Orleans since we already talked about Brighton Beach and it keeps these two together.

It is hard to make these concise but I'll give it a whirl. Really neat stuff and there are pretty good historical records available by computer. I can't imagine trying to do this fifteen or twenty years ago.

Thank you Rob for the A.A.A. 1910 Rules. It definitely helps making sense out of all of this and we do appreciate all the hard research you do on behalf of the Model T hobby. More power to you!

NEW ORLEANS MARDI GRAS RACE, FEBRUARY 25-27, 1911
And THE FORD INCIDENT which is tied into it.
………………………………..
The New Orleans Mardi Gras Race is a great one for the Ford Motor Company and Frank Kulick.

Again, just as in the races at Brighton Beach in August 1910, the engine displacements of the other cars must be known to figure out what was going on in February of 1911 in New Orleans.

The sanction rules explain what happened November 1911 at the Elgin Nationals (bottom two clips below) brought about the Ford comments regarding February 25-27 in New Orleans (top clip).

Frank Kulich was a sensation at New Orleans and there can be no doubt about it.
There are two race summaries that describe how Kulick gave a race car tutorial during those three days!

One is in Motor Age, V.19 1911 Jan-Jun.:

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id= ... up;seq=604

The other is in The Horseless Age, v. 27 1911 Jan-Jun.:

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id= ... up;seq=455

Looking at the write-ups and summaries it does appear that Kulick runs a 47 second faster 5-Mile race, in the second event on Friday (5 minutes 01 seconds) than he did in the first event 5-Mile race on Friday (5 minutes 48 seconds).

Don’t know what happened in the first race but it was slower.

However, Frank Kulick runs another 5-Mile race on Saturday in the “C, 161 to 230 inches” in 5 minutes and 6 six seconds!

That is only 5 seconds slower in five miles than his fastest time. Hardly a difference and we know this race was run in a 176 c.i. Model T racer.

In reading both summaries, I do see that Kulick is shown running in the 231 to 300 inch Class 3C! No doubt about it. The 5 m 06 sec and 5 m 01 second tight race times in what appears to be two classes now begins to look more than a little suspect.

A 47 second differential is one thing, but 5 seconds is tight. What’s up with that?

Another thing that seemed unusual was the write-ups:

1. “Kulick, his little white Ford, was ….” Motor Age

2. “In the light-car events Kulick in the Ford had things all his own way. He started the ball rolling by capturing the 161-230 in. class in 5:48.83, and the class above that at the same distance he took in 5:01.” The Horseless Age, page 1, second column.

3. “Kulick in the little Ford followed up his victories of the opening day….” (This is in reference to No. 2) The Horseless Age, page 1, lower 3rd column.

Why did both articles keep referring to Kulick’s two Ford cars in the singular? He’s racing in two classes.

Also, there is no mention of two Fords anywhere in the write-ups. I also see how it looks like he is driving two displacements but there is an answer.
We don’t have the help of car #’s and photos like at Brighton Beach race summaries either.

The answer is in an article I found yesterday in the February 16, 1911, issue of Motor Age, page 9, bottom of the 3rd column. Not only does it confirm what Rob said about sending two cars to New Orleans, but also confirms the Ford racers were brand new and their engine displacements. Tell me we ain't lucky!

I have attached the article below, top clip.

The two racers sent to New Orleans were both 161-230 cubic inch Model T types that would also qualify as “stock chassis” racers. They were fresh off the Ford track at Highland Park and ready to race.

Just like at Brighton Beach, Frank Kulick ran the same car in all races and the second car was a backup.

What happened in the write-ups????

The way the writers wrote it up is what is misleading.

In order to confirm the above, I have checked all the Class 2C and 3C racers shown in the summaries and there were only two class 3C racers at New Orleans. The Cino and Corbin both can qualify A.A.A. in the race circuit and as stock chassis in the Nationals.

The Motor Age Summary should be followed because it is a more complete list of the racers that participated.

In the Motor Age Summary, Class C Light Car Races:

1. When the writer says: “161 to 230 cubic inches”, or he could have said “2C”, and the participating cars listed are correct.

2. When the writer says: “231 to 300 cubic inches”, he should have said "to 300 cubic inches", or he could have said “2C and 3C”, and the participating cars listed are correct.

There is nothing really peculiar about this grouping of the C cars because there are usually not as many of them as the Big Boys. The real attraction in most of these bigger meets are the “heavy car racers” in the 4C to 6C classes.

Just like at Brighton Beach where Kulick raced only five months prior, there were only five cars in the 161 to 230 inch class. Same thing here where we have only five cars in that class at New Orleans.

The REAL cause of the above problem is that there are only two Class 3C racers that entered the New Orleans Mardi Gras Meet. The Cino – 4-3/8” x 5”- 300.5 c.i., @ 2,160 lb. and the Corbin – 4-1/2” x 4-1/4” – 270.4 c.i. @ 2,080 lb., Class 3C racers. If the promoters didn’t make it a “2c and 3C”event, these two were then just in a two car “match” race and they are not going to have that situation. Kulick appears to be the only 2C that obliged and beat them both!

Not only was there a reason for three cars but the displacements are all known. Kulick knew he could beat those two before he ever left Detroit.

At Brighton Beach, two of the 2C’s Kulick beat were the Staver at 2,000 pounds and Bill Endicott’s Cole “30” at 1882 pounds. It wasn’t a sanctioned race and Kulick managed to get away with the light car.

THE FORD INCIDENT

This is what prompted the top clip three months later.

The bottom two clips below are from Motor Age start at bottom of page 15 and finish top of following page can be seen here:

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id= ... up;seq=381

You can quickly see the A.A.A 1910 minimum weight rules we were discussing a couple of days ago were a problem for Ford Specials and kept them out of sanctioned races. The Ford Special racer 38 car, driven by Hatch, came in at 1,035 pounds and Kulick’s Special came in at 950 pounds and both were disqualified at the weigh-in.

Hence, Ford was disqualified from the Fall 1910 Elgin Nationals, Fox River Trophy they had registered for on August 17, 1910, and it was called the “Ford Incident”. Henry is probably still mad about this.

The disqualification at Elgin brought about the “it is hinted” the cars would qualify “for stock (chassis) competition” etc. in the first article below regarding New Orleans race.

The “Ford Incident” is most certainly where the supposed “Henry Ford Indy” quote came from that is in “The Cars That Henry Ford Built”, Beverly Rae Kimes, page 47, published in 1978. The “fight” was correct but she had the race and time off. You can’t hardly describe the gist of the fight any better. Pretty much right on the money. Doesn't really matter but does highlight the real problem the Ford Specials had.

Seems that the Ford Specials had other problems qualifying for a A.A.A. sanctioned races. I found this 1912 Algonquin issue today while chasing down the New Orleans car data.

THE 1912 ALGONQUIN HILL CLIMB

The 1912 Algonquin Hill climb start was held up by A.A.A. because of Ford Special racer engine size and classification problems. It was appealed by long distance telephone and finally allowed to be run with some sort of manufacturer notation regarding the Fords and one other make.

The issue is covered in Motor Age, v.21 1912 Jan-Jun, first column:

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id= ... p;seq=1502

The real bottom line is Frank Kulick was a great race car driver and had a fantastic five wins in a major meet at New Orleans, sanctioned or not. He had the car!

Great thread!!
Attachments
MOTOR AGE, February 16, 1911 Issue, page 9
MOTOR AGE, February 16, 1911 Issue, page 9
Page 15
Page 15
Page 16
Page 16
FORD INCIDENT B ELGIN NATIONALS.JPG (36.15 KiB) Viewed 5514 times

User avatar

Topic author
Rob
Posts: 535
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:53 pm
First Name: Rob
Last Name: Heyen
Location: Eastern Nebraska

Re: August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by Rob » Thu Apr 25, 2019 7:03 pm

Ken,
Thanks for your research.

I think it's important to look back at the classes and divisions. Yes, Ford did race stock Model T. And, Ford raced Ford "special racers" that had to meet Class C requirements, no larger nor smaller than the bracketed displacements. As the rules state, the racer had to fall within the required displacement rance of a given division, and weight nor cnfiguration were a factor (for Class C). However, Elgin was a stock chassis race. There was no Class C.

The 1910 Elgin races did exclude the two Fords at the last minute. Below is a photo of the Hatch racer during warmups captioned Elgin Races, 1910 (although Ford was told they could not race just before without bringing the car up to weight, and Henry Ford declined):
IMG_3481.JPG
IMG_3481.JPG (73.63 KiB) Viewed 5473 times
Photo courtesy of the Chicago History Museum, online digital collection, all rights apply.

What I am surprised about, and have no answer for is, why was Kulick's racer over 100 lbs. lighter than the other stock Ford entered? Both were stripped. Wonder why his was over 10% lighter? I'll probably never know the answer to that.


Below is an order (Benson Library) for a stock racing chassis, motor number 62,200 to Frank Kulick, just before the race that I suspect was one of the racers in the 1911 Elgin races.
IMG_3488.PNG
Courtesy THF, all rights apply.

This is a photo of Frank Kulick and his co-driver at the 1911 Elgin races. The stock racer may be the one listed above on the factory shipping ticket. The stock coilbox can be seen, a feature not seen on Ford Specials, that used a special dual ignition Bosch magneto. Notice how the oil sump/drain plug is almost directly below the firewall:
IMG_3491.PNG
While each of these races will get lengthy if we try to get down in the weeds, and deserve their own thread, I'll touch on the 1911 Mardi Gras (New Orleans) Carnival of Speed races.

Below is one of the racers sent to the New Orleans. The photo appeared in a March Ford Times:
IMG_3388.PNG
The hogshead, oil drain plug are features unique to the Ford Special racers. Because the engine fits within the firewall, I speculate this is the smaller of the two racers sent, either the 226 or 228 cubic inch motor (yes, Ford made both). Ford also built a 201 cubic inch motor that was used in another race.

Both Ford entries at New Orleans ran in the Class C division. Class C is a displacement only category, while stock cars and chassis are included in the other classes (1910 rules posted above).

Neither a stock Model T, nor Frank Kulick, could make the standard 176 cubic inch motor without additional speed modifications reach the speeds and time these racers did. We do agree, Frank Kulick was an incredible talent on the racetrack. He seemed to have the temperament and innate ability to slither along the track among the larger competition and be competitive in most races he entered. He also was reported to have tremendous knowledge of his racers, and was able to tune them to their utmost capability. He was the head tester for Model K, and each had to be finally approved by him before delivery. I'll follow with a group of period stock T and some of the Ford special pics after this post.

One of the few standard T track time comparisons with Ford Specials can be seen looking at the 1911 Algonquin Hill Climb results:

The first, Class A stock less than $800.00 was a division with three stock Model T. Over the course consisting of two hills (a.m. and p.m. categories). Then a C non-stock Class 161-230 cu.in.(I suspect the bore/stroke/displacement are off, listed the same a stock T 176 cu.in., but it doesn't matter). The winning stock T's mph on each hill were 23.4 mph and 35.02 mph, for a total time of 1 minute 20 seconds.

The other Fords running in the Class C made much better time. If the non-stock T had the same 176 cu.in. motor, something was different (plus the fact it was running in a non-stock class) because it's speeds and time were 38 and 54.87 mph, with a total time of 50 4/5 seconds. And the big Ford (389 cu. in.) came in second overall behind Hearne's Benz (not shown), with speeds of 33.9 and 63.8 mph, with a total time of 48 2/5 seconds:
IMG_3504.PNG


wayne sheldon
Posts: 1522
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:13 pm
First Name: Wayne
Last Name: Sheldon
Location: Grass Valley Califunny, USA
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by wayne sheldon » Fri Apr 26, 2019 1:57 am

So much wonderful stuff! I really enjoy reading it all. Thank you Rob and Ken!

All this great stuff is making me feel the need to get another speedster on the road.

User avatar

Topic author
Rob
Posts: 535
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:53 pm
First Name: Rob
Last Name: Heyen
Location: Eastern Nebraska

Re: August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by Rob » Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:30 am

Wayne,
My pleasure. And thanks to Ken for helping me work through some of the different classifications and where these cars fit. The 1910 rules helped me make sense of the reported results. Often articles will mention classes, but not explain what each particular class requirement was. It appears these rules stayed mostly unchanged until 1914, when more classes and divisions were added.

As mentioned earlier, photos of Ford racers, 1910 - 1912.

Stock racers:

Ellis Joubert, New Orleans Ford dealer. His racer was entered in the stock class (Class A) at the Mardi Gras Carnival of Speed, Feb 1911. I don't know if it ran because Class A results weren't published. It may be there were so many Class C that the committee didn't run stock divisions?
IMG_3506.JPG
IMG_3505.JPG
Frank Kulick with the stock Ford racer that ran in the 1911 Elgin races:
IMG_3491.PNG
This racer appeared in a Ford Times. I'm unsure if it's stock or a Ford Special:
IMG_3494.PNG
The above racer hogshead appears set back a little from the firewall, maybe indicating a larger "special" motor:
IMG_3507.PNG

User avatar

Topic author
Rob
Posts: 535
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:53 pm
First Name: Rob
Last Name: Heyen
Location: Eastern Nebraska

Re: August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by Rob » Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:54 am

A few more.

This is the racer we believe housed our motor. The "tank" behind the firewall hides a portion of the fourth cylinder because the motor is too long to fit forward of the firewall. It's a 300 cubic inch motor. The earliest I've found this photo was in a June 5th, 1911 newspaper article. It looks to me like the trees are fully leaved and grass and weeds along the edge of the racetrack are fully grown, making me wonder if the photo was taken the previous year (1910). I believe the venue is the Michigan State Fairground race track. I'd like to learn more about when and where the photo was taken. The photographer is nationally known autombile and sports photographer Nathan Larzineck.
IMG_3492.PNG
This Ford Special was sent to France to run in the French Grand Prix and other events in France. Initial reports were that Kulick would go to France for the Grand Prix, however the French Ford agent drove the racer in several events in 1911. As with the Elgin races the year before, Agent Henri Depasse was denied entry in the small car race preceding the Gran Prix because the racer was non-stock and underweight. Depasse wrecked the racer while practicing for the Grand Prix. However the racer was rebuilt within a month and the Ford ran second in the prestigious Mont Ventoux hill race, defeating many well know European marquees. This racer also placed second in 1 kilometer time trials prior to the Grank Prix, making a km from a standing start at 69 mph, with a 283 cubic inch motor:
IMG_3031.JPG
Photo courtesy THF, all rights apply.

The "big dog," Fords last Special, the 410 cubic inch racer that beat the world record holding Blitzen Benz on the Michigan State Fairgrounds in the early fall of 1911. This ended up being Frank Kulick's last track race, although he returned to take the Algonquin Hill Climb overall title in 1912. This racer was the culmination of the specials, with under frame trussing, a Ford trademark on several earlier racers, including 999, Arrow and the six cylinder racer, all with motors over 1,000 cubic inches.

The frame is lowered by using an almost straight front crossmember and extended and raised frame for the back spring stack. The V nosed radiator allowed the large motor to be pushed forward, giving the appearance of a Model T. Two changes made to accommodate the large motor include a widened radiator shell on the lower right side of the engine, and the Bosch dual ignition moved behind the firewall on the passenger side, because the motor was just too large to allow the mag be mounted in the engine compartment:
IMG_1620.PNG
IMG_9168.JPG


Drkbp
Posts: 118
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:28 am
First Name: Kenneth
Last Name: Parker
Location: Houston, Texas

Re: August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by Drkbp » Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:26 am

Wayne,
I hear you on the speedster.
I was sitting here in my Tony Stewart NASCAR racing jacket writing the above. Took quite a while to type that stuff.
The leather cap and goggles kept getting in the way! :lol:

Rob,
Great picture on the New Orleans 12 car.
Do you have a link to that Ford Times article?

The pan (engine & transmission), no tea cup, etc. seems to be lower than a regular T.
Would that be a good way to distinguish the Special visually?

Check out the rear end on the 12 car.

I ran across the 1911 A.A.A. Rules for 1911. Could be the same as 1910. I didn't really look at them (below).

Link: https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id= ... up;seq=548

Thank you for the for the 1910 Fox River 38 car picture, too much fun....
Attachments
Page 1
Page 1
Page 2
Page 2

User avatar

Topic author
Rob
Posts: 535
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:53 pm
First Name: Rob
Last Name: Heyen
Location: Eastern Nebraska

Re: August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by Rob » Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:00 am

Ken, thanks for the 11 rules. It doesn't look like major changes, but the document does tighten things up a bit. All good information. The stock requirement for bodies helps explain this photo, the three Fords waiting for the Class A under $800 division at the 1911 Alonquin Hill Climb:
IMG_3484.PNG
Photo courtesy of the Chicago History Museum, online digital collection, all right apply.

User avatar

Topic author
Rob
Posts: 535
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:53 pm
First Name: Rob
Last Name: Heyen
Location: Eastern Nebraska

Re: August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by Rob » Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:08 am

Correction:
I mistakenly wrote the French special racer displacement was 283 cubic inches. It was 183 cubic inches, barely larger than the stock T motor. This photo of the wreck gives us a glimpse of the bottom of the special motor:
IMG_3020.JPG
This photo of the French car on the Mont Ventoux hill race shows the auxiliary exhaust ports putting exhaust out the left side of the motor. The ports can be opened for easier starting, and evidently allow more complete exhaust if opened at speed (can't wait to experiment with this feature on our racer):
IMG_3022.PNG
Photos courtesy of THF, all rights apply.


Drkbp
Posts: 118
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:28 am
First Name: Kenneth
Last Name: Parker
Location: Houston, Texas

Re: August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by Drkbp » Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:48 pm

Rob,
That picture of the 12 car that Kulick drives in New Orleans is absolutely fine. The detail is as good as it gets.
I went back after lunch today and compared it to the large engine Specials and I see exactly what you are talking about.

Side by side and there is no doubt about the motor mount and engine position.

Top photo, the engine doesn't go rear past the firewall (which would require a cover) and the engine mounting bracket is snugged right up to the back of the firewall. No cover is visible back of the firewall.

In the second photo, the larger engine has to be pulled back past the firewall and has the cover showing.

There's not any speculation to it.
Also,
The annotation clearly states "The photographer caught Kulick in the Ford Model T racer just before the start of Saturday's races"

Kulick is definitely mounted up and ready to go in the 12 car.

Looking at the first event on the Saturday race Summary....bottom clip
You nailed it!

The #12 car in the Ford Times photo at New Orleans is a 161 to 230 cubic inch Ford Special Racer!
Thanks again for the old photos
Attachments
SMALL ENGINE FORD SPECIAL<br />161 TO 230 CUBIC INCH DISPLACEMENT
SMALL ENGINE FORD SPECIAL
161 TO 230 CUBIC INCH DISPLACEMENT
LARGE ENGINE FORD SPECIAL-300 UP
LARGE ENGINE FORD SPECIAL-300 UP
NEW ORLEANS-SATURDAY-FEBRUARY 25 1911-FIRST RACE.JPG
NEW ORLEANS-SATURDAY-FEBRUARY 25 1911-FIRST RACE.JPG (56.55 KiB) Viewed 5328 times

User avatar

Kaiser
Posts: 392
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 5:32 am
First Name: Leo
Last Name: van Stirum
Location: Netherlands
Board Member Since: 2016

Re: August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by Kaiser » Sat Apr 27, 2019 7:28 am

Piece by piece the whole story comes clearer and clearer, amazied at the amount of detail you guys are able to dig up after more than a hundred years !
Keep at it, i love it !!
When in trouble, do not fear, blame the second engineer ! 8-)
Leo van Stirum, Netherlands
'23 Huckster, '66 CJ5 daily driver

User avatar

John Warren
Posts: 610
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:18 pm
First Name: John
Last Name: Warren
Location: Henderson, Nevada

Re: August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by John Warren » Sat Apr 27, 2019 8:18 am

Thank you, you guys, Wow for the information on racing in those days. Rob. so what number are you going to use? I am sure looking forward to seeing your car.
24-28 TA race car, 26 Canadian touring, 25 Roadster pickup, 14 Roadster, and 11AB Maxwell runabout
Keep it simple and keep a good junk pile if you want to invent something :P


Drkbp
Posts: 118
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:28 am
First Name: Kenneth
Last Name: Parker
Location: Houston, Texas

Re: August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by Drkbp » Sat Apr 27, 2019 2:47 pm

MODEL T 13 CAR IN THE NEW ORLEANS FEBRUARY 25-27, 1911 RACES

Rob,
You’ve got a sharp eye for detail and I agree with you that the 13 car was at least entered in the New Orleans pro race.

They did run some A races but you can’t see it in your St. Louis Post Dispatch newspaper column “TWO RECORDS GO AT NEW ORLEANS” above.

SPONSOR

From what you are saying, I take it that the Ford Dealer Elis Joubert “sponsored”, or sometime they call it “nominated”, the 13 car and driver at the Mardi Gras race. This was part of the Ford racing advertising that Henry Ford was all about and I guess not much different in a sense from the “Fords” in NASCAR today.

Joubert may have sponsored Frank Kulick’s 12 car too. A little deep in the weeds like you say and I don’t know. After the race days, those cars would almost surely be on display at the Ford Dealers for a period of time like Kulick’s winning racer in the Teidemann Cup that got burned up while on display at the Dealer. Bound to have attracted a lot of attention to the Dealer.

WHAT “A” RACE?

Again, you have to look at the Race Summary in Motor Age to see the “A” floating around that may be the answer. I suggest they aren’t talking about a Class A in the A.A.A. Stock Car sense and we’re certainly not talking about any amateur events.

I believe they may be talking about divisions of a race of cars by A, B and so on. It happened on Saturday and Monday at New Orleans, you see that often in other races and I have attached a clip below. I’m not saying the Motor Age summary writer has it written exactly the way it should be written but I believe we know what he means and your 13 car photo confirms the “161 to 230” to “A” race. It happens a couple of times:

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id= ... up;seq=604

So where is the 13 car?

Rob, your material may have told you he didn’t race. I don’t know, but your excellent pictures of the 13 car provide some information if no other data is found. Also, we know the 13 car would most certainly not be a Ford Special as you have pointed out, but a A.A.A, 2B 161 to 230 cubic inch racer. He’s clearly got a coil box Ford magneto ignition you coached us on.

Also, note that the 13 car is not in what I would call full racing trim like your photo of Kulick in the 12 car.
Why do I say that?
Because one of the biggest causes of fatalities in track races at the time is going into fences due to tire failures BUT the 13 car is in “street” wheels and tires.

Only a clue he wasn’t racing but take a look at the tires and wheels on the Frank Kulick’s racers and the 38 car of Hatch in this thread above except the wire wheels. Those are racing tires and wheels with the tire clamps. That is probably the best a driver could get at the time and Rob is in the know on that stuff.

The 13 car could have raced in one or more of the events during those three days, but it may be that we just don’t have enough of a full summary to see him.

It also could be that, although entered, he had a mechanical failure, never started and we don’t see him. Who knows?

One other aspect of those great photographs that declares the 13 car is a racer is he is numbered up on his radiator and gas tank. You don’t do that just to take a picture with the shop guys. If you ever find the records, you will probably find out the name of the driver. Kulick’s 12 car at this meet is only numbered on the gas tank but at Brighton Beach he was numbered up on the radiator and tank as I recall.

Another thing I noticed because of the great detail was that the 13 car had what appears to be about a 3” hood extension riveted section added next to the radiator. I looked at the 38 car of Hatch and it too appears extended but it could just an old set of eyes.
Does anyone know what to make of that?

I’m sure y’all have also noticed something else on these two 13 car photos below.
The 13 car number is sequential to the 12 car at the same time and at the same place. I would think that tends to confirm Rob’s view he was entered.

Great project and beautiful pictures of that racer!

I bet that Model T was loud!!
Attachments
13 CAR AND THE GUYS
13 CAR AND THE GUYS
13 CAR
13 CAR
RACER BURNED
RACER BURNED
class-Race A.JPG
class-Race A.JPG (28.29 KiB) Viewed 5271 times


It's Bill
Posts: 133
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:41 pm
First Name: Bill
Last Name: Hoffer
Location: Newtown, PA
MTFCA Number: 32571
MTFCI Number: 24364
Board Member Since: 2016

Re: August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by It's Bill » Sun Apr 28, 2019 6:44 am

Outstanding thread, gentlemen! Cheers, Bill

User avatar

Topic author
Rob
Posts: 535
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:53 pm
First Name: Rob
Last Name: Heyen
Location: Eastern Nebraska

Re: August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by Rob » Sun Apr 28, 2019 9:53 am

Thanks Bill. A little more perspective on stock vs. Ford racing motors. I don't think Joubert made the Mardi Gras races. In fact, I've not found any results for stock cars. Maybe the field of professional Class C cars was too big, so Class A had to be excluded. Or maybe enough "A" cars didn't register to run the class. But Joubert did run his stock stripped down T the winter before, in late 1910. Below are results from one October race. Barney Oldfield and his "Lightning" or "Blitzen Benz" were the headliners for that race:
IMG_3534.PNG
At the same race, local Ford agent Ellis Joubert ran his Model T. While Oldfield and his Benz set a new track mile record, making a speed of 67 mph. Meanwhile, Joubert wins two stock events travelling 44 mph:
IMG_3527.JPG
This is the same Benz car Wild Bob Burmann will set a world record mile the following spring of 141 mph that will stand until 1919. It was the current mile record holder with Oldfield at the wheel set earlier in 1910:
IMG_3536.PNG
For comparison, the Ford Specials ran the mile at the New Orleans races in an average of about 55 mph. Not up to the speed of the 200 hp world record making Benze, but faster than a fast stock T.

A side note, this is the same Blitzen Benz Frank Kulick and the 410 cubic inch Ford Special will defeat on the Michigan State Fairgrounds Track the following October (1911), setting a new track record of one mile in 50 seconds flat.


Drkbp
Posts: 118
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:28 am
First Name: Kenneth
Last Name: Parker
Location: Houston, Texas

Re: August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by Drkbp » Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:29 am

Rob,

“For comparison, the Ford Specials ran the mile at the New Orleans races in an average of about 55 mph.”


Please don’t sell the large block 300 cubic inch Ford Specials short in the Mardi Gras races!

Kulick wouldn’t like that :evil:

The 300’s have a much better average speed than the small block Specials like the #12 car that ran the first event on Saturday ( picture you posted above).

Since Kulick ran the first event on Saturday, a 161 to 230 cubic inch Five miles race in the #12 car, he had to run the first event on Sunday in the same #12 car because both races, and all the cars in them, are 161 to 230 cubic inch racers.

You’re correct, of course, that Kulick drove that small block 230 cubic inch max Ford Special #12 car in the two 161 to 230 cubic inch 5 Mile Races at a 55.04 mph average clip. (Top two highlights)

However…….(drum roll)

The large block 300 cubic inch max Ford Special ran its two "231 to 300 cubic inch" 5 Mile Races at a 58.5 mph average speed which is a LOT faster than a stock Model T! (Bottom two highlights)

That 3.5 mph made a big difference when Kulick ran against the big cars, the Cino and the Corbin in those two bottom races. That’s what it took to beat them!

Rob,
I'm sure you saw it but since you didn't comment on the "5 minute 01 second" race two on Saturday that Kulick ran, I'll go ahead on it because it was the highlight of the meet for him against time.

Kulick AVERAGED a "60 second mile" for FIVE laps on that one mile track. That is an amazing 60 mph and was part of the writer's excitement.
Kulick was deep in the 50's during that race, with the fastest times in a five victory race meet. It don't hardly get no better than that for a race car driver!

Far better time-wise than the One Hour 55 mile Saturday race. That was only a 55 mph average speed and I don't know why that time is NOT as good as the #12 car averaged in the 161-230 cubic inch racer, 55.04 mph.
Splitting hairs, by .04 mph :lol: but I'm not quite sure which 55 mph you're talking about but neither one is 60 mph.

Kulick apparently had the town talking and if you find the March Ford Times write-up we would sure appreciate being able to take a look at it. I know I would and thanks ahead.

Anyhow, playing with the times....
The overall average was 56.7 mph which was quite impressive too, but the times can't be averaged at this time. Averaging of the four races together is dependent on which of two conflicting pieces of documentation is correct, or the discovery of another racer besides the #12 car. As usual, an open question that may never be answered.

{Yesterday, I was comparing the New Orleans data to that in another race Kulick ran later in 1911 so I already had the above MPH's at my fingertips. If the other race shows anything interesting I'll post it.}

Thank you for the additional picture of the “Speed King”. Is that a beast or not?! :shock:
It looks like it is moving when it is sitting still.

Fun stuff 8-) and thanks for a great thread.
Attachments
FOUR RACES IN TWO BRACKETS
FOUR RACES IN TWO BRACKETS

User avatar

Topic author
Rob
Posts: 535
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:53 pm
First Name: Rob
Last Name: Heyen
Location: Eastern Nebraska

Re: August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by Rob » Mon Apr 29, 2019 4:50 pm

Ken,
The Ford Times article following the Mardi Gras races:
IMG_3542.PNG
IMG_3543.PNG
In the Ford Times before the upcoming New Orleans races, Ford had a half page preview. One thing gleaned from this article is that Ford acknowledges preparation to send two "Model T racing cars:"
IMG_3544.PNG
Ford News images courtesy of The Henry Ford, all rights apply.

User avatar

Topic author
Rob
Posts: 535
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:53 pm
First Name: Rob
Last Name: Heyen
Location: Eastern Nebraska

Re: August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by Rob » Mon Apr 29, 2019 5:12 pm

Warren asked awhile back what number I might put on our racer. I've been unable to learn what the 300 cubic inch racer (our motor) was assigned at the New Orleans races. We know from the Ford Times photo the smaller racer was number 12. If anyone happens upon a photo of the two Ford racers sent to New Orleans we might learn the number. I also saw an article where the writer mentioned he saw a Ford special with the hood open, and it looked like a six cylinder because he saw six spark plugs. I believe that was the same 300 cu in racer, because the 4th cylinder is behind the firewall, unseen with the hood up. An undeducated viewer might mistake the six dual ignition plug wires for a 6 cylinder motor, when in reality there are 8 plugs and wires, with a pair of plugs hidden under the false tank on the driver side of the firewall, where a traditional T has the coilbox.


Mike Lebsack-Iowa
Posts: 139
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:22 pm
First Name: Mike
Last Name: Lebsack
Location: Iowa
Board Member Since: 2008

Re: August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by Mike Lebsack-Iowa » Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:52 pm

This thread is awesome and history is revealing itself through intense curiosity and a genuine desire to investigate and validate the facts. Doesn’t get any better with any hobby. Rob, when can we have another little peak at your racer and the progress, the suspense is killing some us?

User avatar

Topic author
Rob
Posts: 535
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:53 pm
First Name: Rob
Last Name: Heyen
Location: Eastern Nebraska

Re: August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by Rob » Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:16 pm

Mike, you and me both.......... ;)

I believe the guys are taking it out for one more trial run tomorrow, then apart for painting (including those great looking wire wheels) and final assembly. They're working really hard to have it ready for the Speedster Reunion in Lincoln the third week in June.

https://www.museumofamericanspeed.com/s ... union.html

Pete and the guys have the fan mocked up:
IMG_3553.JPG
Clutch pedal copied from the existing racer configuration, just above and inside the left foot stirrup:
IMG_3554.JPG
Overall configuration is lining up with the 300 cubic inch racer photo we have:
IMG_3550.PNG
Alan Fawcett (a.k.a. Frank Kulick):
IMG_3548.PNG
Then to the paint room, and re-assembly:
IMG_3552.PNG


DHort
Posts: 729
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:30 pm
First Name: DAVID
Last Name: HJORTNAES
Location: Men Falls, WI
MTFCA Number: 28762
MTFCI Number: 22402

Re: August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by DHort » Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:38 pm

What color does Julie want and what color does Rob want?


Drkbp
Posts: 118
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:28 am
First Name: Kenneth
Last Name: Parker
Location: Houston, Texas

Re: August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by Drkbp » Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:42 pm

Rob,

Thank you very much for the Times article and I note the rights.
Nice full article. Big deal to Ford Motor and I’m sure it’s full of details.

I second Warren’s comment.
I have been looking at those car numbers and can’t figure out “his” number from all the stuff we have been looking at the last several months. They all seem to have been assigned at an event.

But first, :idea:
I would like to get your take on something I was looking at today. I don’t remember hearing anything about Gruener and the 49 car at the 1911 Algonquin so I’ll go ahead on it.

It seems to me that Gruener’s 49 car is a Ford Special racer. Didn’t snap until I was looking at your comments on that wrecked “183” Depasse car.

If so, Ford had at least two 161 to 230 cubic inch Ford Specials before the June 1911 Algonquin.

I wondered why Kulick didn’t drive that New Orleans 12 car at Algonquin. Kulick didn’t drive it but it might be that Gruener did!

Rationale,
if the 49 car was a regular Model T chassis racer, Gruener would have raced with the 12 car and 14 car, Abbott-Detroits.

They were A.A.A. 2B racers. Gruener was a 2C racer by the Rules and he raced where he was supposed to.

Be neat if there was a picture.

Also, your great picture of Kulick driving the flat radiator chassis at the 1911 Algonquin must be the 42 car or the 64 car. I guess you can’t quite see the “can” that covers the back of that 389.9 cubic inch engine but he is the driver of record on both in the Algonquin Race Summary. The 289.9 c.i. 64 car is obviously a typo and was another 389.9 like the 42 car Kulick drove.

Maybe the 389.9’s didn’t have a cover.

Do you have any pictures of a 389 Special?

Link to the 1911 Algonquin Race Review, Motor Age:
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id= ... p;seq=1239

Link to the 1911 Algonquin Race Summary, Motor Age:
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id= ... p;seq=1247

Thank you again for the Times article!
Great thread, fun stuff 8-)
Attachments
NONSTOCK DIVISION-GRUENER DRIVES 49 CAR FORD SPECIAL RACER.JPG

User avatar

Topic author
Rob
Posts: 535
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:53 pm
First Name: Rob
Last Name: Heyen
Location: Eastern Nebraska

Re: August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by Rob » Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:43 pm

Dave,
White, of course:
IMG_3550.PNG
IMG_3494.PNG
IMG_3107.JPG
Although............... the dark colored French Ford Special is a good looking machine:
IMG_3019.JPG
IMG_3022.PNG
Ken, more on your points later tonight or tomorrow. Thank you for your research.


Drkbp
Posts: 118
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:28 am
First Name: Kenneth
Last Name: Parker
Location: Houston, Texas

Re: August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by Drkbp » Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:51 am

Here is a picture that I got with no information. This fine thread, thank you Rob, let's me/us add some.
It's new to me and I don't recall seeing it before so I'll go ahead on it.

Frank Kulick is the driver and Hatch is riding mechanic. They have just passed the finish line at the top at Algonquin. The guys in the background are probably timers. Who knows?

We can tell it's 1911, radiator neck. These two were entered in the Elgin Aurora Cup the previous Fall.

At Aurora, Kulick drove the 31 car and Rob gave us a picture of Hatch in the 38 car during practice. That's where Henry throws the fit we talked about above over the weight and refuses to budge. Causes these two to not race in that one but they seem to be having a grand time here.

Check out the wood spoke right front wheel. He's running a Stewart and has to be able to mount the road gear.

Sort of looks like the 10 car at Brighton Beach but that racer has the low radiator neck.
Is this fun or not? :lol: I'm sure I missed something or have something wrong so don't hesitate.. :?
Attachments
FRANK KULICK WITH DRIVER OF 38 CAR ENTERED IN 1910 ELGIN AURORA RACE-HATCH.jpg
38 CAR IN PRACTICE
38 CAR IN PRACTICE
ELGIN - 38 CAR - HATCH.jpg (54.34 KiB) Viewed 5022 times


KeithG
Posts: 296
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:00 pm
First Name: Keith
Last Name: Gumbinger
Location: Kenosha, WI
MTFCA Number: 4661
MTFCA Life Member: YES
MTFCI Number: 6866
Board Member Since: 1999

Re: August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by KeithG » Tue Apr 30, 2019 1:26 pm

Rob and everyone else, Keep it coming. I love this thread. Can't wait to see Rob's restored big engined speedster... :)

Keith
'14 Touring, '26 Roadster Pickup, '27 Fordor, '25 TT C Cab with Express Bed.
Motto: It's hard to build a garage that's tooooo big! :D


wayne sheldon
Posts: 1522
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:13 pm
First Name: Wayne
Last Name: Sheldon
Location: Grass Valley Califunny, USA
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by wayne sheldon » Wed May 01, 2019 3:31 am

Not sure what it means? But a detail I noticed about the picture posted by Ken P at 6:51 April 30, appears different than any other of the Ford race cars pictured above. As Ken P says, it appears to be Frank Kulick with Hatch riding mechanic. It is not the first photo I have seen with one wood spoke wheel and three wires, although I don't recall just where I have seen that before. However, what appears different than any of the other above Ford racer photos, is that there is a side "angled" piece alongside the hogshead. The number 13 car (pictured in several postings above) has floorboards over the hogshead, still no outer side pieces that can be seen supporting those floorboards. The angle of the photo does not allow a glimpse of the floorboards (if any?).
Could this be one of the stock engined cars they ran in a few events? That brake handle certainly is not standard factory issue!


Drkbp
Posts: 118
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:28 am
First Name: Kenneth
Last Name: Parker
Location: Houston, Texas

Re: August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by Drkbp » Thu May 02, 2019 5:52 pm

Wayne,
Good spot! I didn’t notice that. :shock:
Short brake handle seems to be a Kulick trait. Hatch races the “tall” handle. At first I thought I saw a coil box but looking closer it seems to be just a tag or something Kulick has stuck behind the hood former. Kulick and Hatch are in either the 42 car or 64 car at the 1911 Algonquin. Both of those cars were 389.9's so now we know what a 389.9 Ford Special looks like from the front.

When blew it up I could see the pan rail down like the 12 car at New Orleans.
I don't think they race a mechanic in this climb so it's probably the two checking out something on Kulick's racer.

Just a side note about Gruener who is riding mechanic in the 38 car picture. Gruener races the 1 car and 49 car at this same event, the 1911 Algonquin.

User avatar

Topic author
Rob
Posts: 535
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:53 pm
First Name: Rob
Last Name: Heyen
Location: Eastern Nebraska

Re: August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by Rob » Sat May 04, 2019 8:19 am

The hand brake seems to have changed with different racer versions. The end result, the world beating 410 cubic inch racer that resides at THF has a longer hand brake, bent inward and up, between the drivers legs. That's the route we went. That racer also has a separate high gear handle just under the floor boards. My guess is the hand brake could be applied without disengaging high. This may have been so there was less dead space between high and low transistion.
IMG_3578.PNG
Two Ford special photos. The first was taken at the 1911 Algonquin hill climb.
IMG_3575.PNG
The photo below is of the 410 cubic inch special at the 1912 Algonquin climb:
IMG_3574.PNG


Drkbp
Posts: 118
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:28 am
First Name: Kenneth
Last Name: Parker
Location: Houston, Texas

Re: August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by Drkbp » Sun May 05, 2019 1:02 pm

Wayne,

The photo I posted above with Hatch and Kulick is actually Gruener’s 49 car, 176.7 cubic inch non-stock chassis racer :o

So much for the short brake handle idea! The race Hatch entered the 38 car was Fox River too, not Aurora. :(

Also, that’s a coil box and latch showing behind the firewall and not a “tag or something”. Come on eyes? :roll:

Kulick’s Ford Special 389.9 cubic inch 42 car has a Bosch mag because you can see the bonnet has the bulge for it, has much wider snubbers and there are some other differences in Kulick’s Ford Special 389.9 cubic inch 64 car as well. Poor resolution but it's just left of center.

One piece spindles…..

Ken P
Attachments
GRUENER'S 49 CAR, ALGONQUIN 1911,   FRANK KULICK DRIVER AND JIM HATCH MECHANIC
GRUENER'S 49 CAR, ALGONQUIN 1911, FRANK KULICK DRIVER AND JIM HATCH MECHANIC
BONNET MAGNETO COVER
BONNET MAGNETO COVER
42 CAR FORD SPECIAL 389.9 CI - BOSCH BULGE.JPG (28.14 KiB) Viewed 4792 times

User avatar

CudaMan
Posts: 612
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:17 pm
First Name: Mark
Last Name: Strange
Location: Hillsboro, MO
MTFCA Number: 30944
MTFCI Number: 23667

Re: August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by CudaMan » Sun May 05, 2019 5:49 pm

Note the leather rebound straps on the front and rear axles! :)
Mark Strange
Hillsboro, MO
1924 Cut-off Touring (now a pickup)


blgitn
Posts: 81
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 10:36 pm
First Name: Roger
Last Name: Harmon
Location: West Point, VA
MTFCA Number: 16412
Board Member Since: 2007

Re: August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by blgitn » Sun May 05, 2019 9:24 pm

I wonder why that car has 3 wire wheels and one wood wheel?

User avatar

Kaiser
Posts: 392
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 5:32 am
First Name: Leo
Last Name: van Stirum
Location: Netherlands
Board Member Since: 2016

Re: August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by Kaiser » Mon May 06, 2019 4:57 am

Two things i noticed in the pictures ;
first, the French Ford appears to have a speedo gear attached to the left front wire wheel.
second; the pic of the Ford with the one wood front wheel, it probably has something to do with speedo gear too but.. does that wood wheel seem smaller than the other wires ? or is that a optical illusion, i think Rob mentioned something about Ford useing slightly bigger wire wheels on some of the racers, so when a stock wood wheel would be substituted for one it would be slightly smaller than the other three
Could they have been determining top speed with a different gear set up, or carb adjustment, that would explain the mechanic riding shotgun, probably during a test run before the actual race.
When in trouble, do not fear, blame the second engineer ! 8-)
Leo van Stirum, Netherlands
'23 Huckster, '66 CJ5 daily driver

User avatar

Topic author
Rob
Posts: 535
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:53 pm
First Name: Rob
Last Name: Heyen
Location: Eastern Nebraska

Re: August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by Rob » Mon May 06, 2019 8:25 am

Regarding the wire wheels, and sometimes one wood wheel. Yes, Ford drawings indicate the wire wheels were 32x4. Most of the wire wheel drawings were updated in 1914, long after Ford's last race in June, 1912. The changes were in the angle of the spokes. My guess is the wheels were updated for Edsel's racer/speedster (below) to accommodate a wider tire, but that's just a guess. Below are three variations of Edsel's speedsters. The first a wire wheeled car:
IMG_1039.JPG
The second a speedster with V nosed radiator and wood wheels. Some magazines/books that show these photos suggest it's one of Edsel's six cylinder speedsters. However, I think the hood is Torpedo sized and is matched with one of the Ford Special large four cyllinder motors:
IMG_0894.JPG
This last shows another speedster with wire wheels. This appears to be a younger Edsel at the wheel, with possibly an earlier version of his speedster. There may not be a coilbox, which may indicate an external mag under the hood?
IMG_0893.JPG
I've seen two or three photos of Ford Special racers at different events with one right wood wheel and three wire wheels. My best guess is that Kulick wanted to know speed, possibly for shifting, and so left the wood wheel on. Switching to the two rear wire wheels would be a way to slightly increase the gear ratio. One photo I've seen of the three wires and one wood was on a hill climb, and another on a track race.


Drkbp
Posts: 118
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:28 am
First Name: Kenneth
Last Name: Parker
Location: Houston, Texas

Re: August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by Drkbp » Mon May 06, 2019 2:40 pm

Young Edsel has a non-Ford mag, no spark lever.
Empty coil box makes a good glove box, 8-)
…. like the 32 car (Elgin August 29, 1911) has a coil box but you see the Bosch mag next to radiator with its side piece missing. Note “bulge” on bonnet under belt-buckle.

Bulges to clear magneto show better on the September 26, 1911, Michigan State Fair V-nose, the “50 second mile” racer. Note bulge between the 1st and 2nd exhaust port and brass bulge on radiator side plate.

Ford racers like at Hawthorne Track, Chicago, June 8, 1911, don't seem to have a coil box (bottom clip).
Attachments
32 CAR FORD SPECIAL RACER AT ELGIN.png
MAG SETUP CONTROL.JPG
ford race car at Hawthorne Track, Chicago, Illinois, 8 June 1911.JPG

User avatar

Topic author
Rob
Posts: 535
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:53 pm
First Name: Rob
Last Name: Heyen
Location: Eastern Nebraska

Re: August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by Rob » Mon May 06, 2019 6:03 pm

It seems the more I learn, the less I know........ :shock:

A few things, and questions for Ken or anyone.

First, lets start with the last photo. I've been trying to determine where, and when, the photo of Frank Kulick with what I believe is our 300 cubic inch motor (due to the setback motor) was taken. I found one newspaper running the photo with the photographer credit of "Laznick." The photographer was nationally known auto sport photojournalist Nathan Larznick. Larznick took many of the photos we see today of the Glidden tours and many of the racing events of the day.

The Hawthorne races were scheduled for June 10th and 11th, 1911. However they were postponed a week due to rain, and ran on the 17th and 18th of June, 1911. The track was in poor condition and while Kulick ran the first race the first day, winning, a fatality and then wreck the next race caused the races to be held again until the second day. Kulick and many drivers refused to run the second day, so it was a short event.

My point is, the earliest newspaper photo of Frank Kulick with this racer ran June 5th, 1911. Unless Kulick was at Hawthorne track (if this is Hawthorne track in the background, and I don't think it is), Kulick would have had to be there practicing several days ahead of the races, and that is possible. To run the 5th, I would think the photo had to be taken at least by the 4th of June to allow time to process.

The other question regarding this photo is, it looks like grass and weeds are overgrown on the edge of the infield. I don't know if vegetation would have grown that much by early June in the Chicago area. That causes me to wonder if this may have been a late summer early fall 1910 photo?
IMG_3608.JPG
Trees in full foliage and what look like fully grown vegetation along the track:
IMG_3612.PNG
Photo as it ran June 5th in the Detroit Free Press. The article seems to read that Kulick has not yet left for Chicago and Hawthorne track:
IMG_3605.PNG
Other things. I believe Ford and the Elgin Road Race participants were running in the Class B division, requiring stock chassis. I don't think the dark part of the radiator is a cut out for a mag, however can't say for sure by looking at this photo. I do know the Ford Specials I've seen photos of have removed the coil boxes altogether, but of course that doesn't mean that is always the case.

The reason for the "bulge" on the radiator of the 389 and 410 cubic inch Ford Special racers isn't to accommodate a magneto, but to make room for the cam/mag drive gear cover. Below is a photo of the 410 cu in racer looking down at the cam cover and side of the motor. The motor is simply so large the radiator brass had to "bulge" to allow room for the cam drive shaft:
IMG_3600.PNG
Our mag does sit about where the hood bulge is, and it appears to me the 389 cu in racer (late summer early fall 1911) may have had the mag alongside the motor. I had not noticed until Ken pointed out the hood bulge, but the early V nose radiator big Ford Special doesn't appear to have the long mag driveshaft and mag mounted on the floorboard behind the firewall like the racer now does. This photo appeared in one of October 1911 Ford Times:
IMG_3601.PNG
With a five photo limit that's it for this post. I'll put the "later" version of the big racer.

User avatar

Topic author
Rob
Posts: 535
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:53 pm
First Name: Rob
Last Name: Heyen
Location: Eastern Nebraska

Re: August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by Rob » Mon May 06, 2019 6:12 pm

The 410 cubic inch racer as it appeared in the 1912 Alonquin hill climb and now, with the magneto hidden under the "lunch pail" behind the firewall on the passenger side:
IMG_3611.JPG
One more. My guess is the Kulick racer photo was taken at the Michigan State Fairgrounds. The top photo below was taken at a horse race at the fairgrounds outside Detroit. The photo below is a cutout of the Kulick racer photo. The two venues look similar:
IMG_3613.PNG


Drkbp
Posts: 118
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:28 am
First Name: Kenneth
Last Name: Parker
Location: Houston, Texas

Re: August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by Drkbp » Tue May 07, 2019 12:48 am

I don't know about that. You are waaay ahead of us! :lol: Varoooom! Great project!

I believe it is just a publicity photograph to promote, or report, the Hawthorne Race Card in Chicago.
It could be another track somewhere else but doesn’t really matter. The photo Bucket I picked up on another site 6 or 7 years ago. First clip below is how the promoters used it "to report" what had happened.

We need to look at the Race Card for Saturday, June 10, 1911, for Hawthorne to see what happened. Second clip below.

Yellow dots:
Basle was killed racing Kulick in the 161 to 230 cubic inch First race. Officials called off the race and ran a couple of “exhibitions” of the “big” cars later that day or Sunday. I believe Kulick drove that big Ford Special to help the promoters salvage the weekend and that is what is reported.

Red Dots:
Kulich was entered in the 301 to 450 cubic inch Third race which was the object of the photograph. The typesetter has the race class description below the entries. Hot car, star driver, but didn’t get to drive the Red Dots "scheduled race" because of the fatality. Drove it in an adjusted card.

The racer he is sitting in is the 389.9 cubic inch 42 car he raced at Algonquin June 8, 1911, just two days before. If it isn’t that car, it is another car that looks just like it.

It seems Hawthorne and Algonquin were essentially a Thursday through Sunday affair. Also, in the First race (Yellow Dots) Saturday at Hawthorne, Kulick was probably driving the 49 car Bill Gruener drove and won with at Algonquin. That is the car I commented about the other day that had Hatch and Kulick in it.
Attachments
NEWS SERVICE REPORT USING THE FURNISHED PHOTOGRAPH
NEWS SERVICE REPORT USING THE FURNISHED PHOTOGRAPH
PUBLISHED RACE DAY - TOP HALF OF CARD
PUBLISHED RACE DAY - TOP HALF OF CARD


Drkbp
Posts: 118
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:28 am
First Name: Kenneth
Last Name: Parker
Location: Houston, Texas

Re: August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by Drkbp » Tue May 07, 2019 7:18 am

Forgot to add :(
If we see some action photographs one day, we'll know where they were taken.
Michigan State Fair Grounds track and Frank Kulick can make that Varooom up and down Woodward he talks about. :lol:
Woodward seems to have been another of his race tracks. :!:
The "50 second mile" Ford Special V-nosed racer publicity photograph that Trent B commented on some time back, was taken at Woodward and Manchester right outside Ford Headquarters. Either just before, or right after the September 26, 1911, race.
Fun stuff and thank you Rob for a great thread!
Attachments
WOODWARD AT MANCHESTER- SEPTEMBER 1911
WOODWARD AT MANCHESTER- SEPTEMBER 1911
RUN FOR THE PHOTO OPP.JPG

User avatar

Topic author
Rob
Posts: 535
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:53 pm
First Name: Rob
Last Name: Heyen
Location: Eastern Nebraska

Re: August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by Rob » Tue May 07, 2019 3:09 pm

I hope to someday find photos of the right side of the 300 cubic inch racer (one of the 1911 Mardi Gras racers) and the 389 cubic inch (Alonquin Hill winner). For now, what I and the men who began this project of recreating the racing chassis of the 300 cubic in motor have to go on is the original motor and what little was included with it. Below is a photo of the crankcase and front motor mount before restoration was begun:
IMG_3679.PNG
When placed in a frame, the motor mount sets the engine here:
IMG_3686.PNG
By using a torpedo hood, the back cylinder is still partially rearward of the firewall:
IMG_3687.PNG
I believe these photos and layout of the motor led the originators of this project to believe this chassis owned this engine:
IMG_3608.JPG
I'll follow with a comparison of the two pans. Thank you Ken for your research. This thread has caused me to compare and look into some aspects of the Ford Specials I had not before.

User avatar

Topic author
Rob
Posts: 535
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:53 pm
First Name: Rob
Last Name: Heyen
Location: Eastern Nebraska

Re: August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by Rob » Tue May 07, 2019 3:26 pm

This is a comparison of our pan with the early May 1911 photo:
IMG_3690.PNG
I believe our racer is "M-III" in the Henry Ford drawings (all photo rights apply). This is the three dip pan drawing at THF, and identical to our pan:
IMG_3691.PNG
This is the four dip pan on the 410 cubic inch racer at THF (the Benz beater):
IMG_3693.PNG
I'd like to know the numbers of the two Ford racers at the Mardi Gras races. One ran in the 161-230 cubic inch non stock class, and one in the 231-300 class. We know one of the racers was number 12. If we knew the numbers, we'd know if this is the larger or smaller racer of the two.
IMG_3666.PNG
More to learn.......


wayne sheldon
Posts: 1522
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:13 pm
First Name: Wayne
Last Name: Sheldon
Location: Grass Valley Califunny, USA
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by wayne sheldon » Tue May 07, 2019 4:53 pm

Wow. (A simple un-exclamation pointed, incredulous, "wow")
This thread has really grown, and opened pathways to details not previously studied or widely published. This, frankly, little known area of Ford's racing history is shown to be an amazing culmination of the better known earlier exploits of Henry Ford and Frank Kulick. Truly a fitting end to the days of Sweepstakes, the original 999, and Arrow.
Personally, I enjoy the details in the era photos, and surviving pieces of these special cars, as well as the (many more than previously generally known) racing facts and meets attended.
Thanks to Rob H and Ken P.


Drkbp
Posts: 118
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:28 am
First Name: Kenneth
Last Name: Parker
Location: Houston, Texas

Re: August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by Drkbp » Thu May 09, 2019 10:01 am

Wayne,
We have better records available than I would have imagined regarding Ford car numbers at New Orleans….

I tried hard to condense this but it is long. The Short Answer paragraph covers the car number issue, but if you are into detail, it follows.
However, it does cover one of Ford’s greatest race track meets. The Kulick victories in New Orleans were terrific and the background events leading up to it only add to the level of sensationalism. Henry Ford knew how to pick a race car driver! Rob is spot on.

Short answer on the numbers:

The second Ford Special racer at New Orleans was not numbered and it was a 161 to 230 cubic inch Ford Special racer.

Frank Kulick had been entered in the 161 to 230 cubic class in one car and his "racing partner" had been entered in the same class in the second car, the two Ford Specials Henry Ford sent to New Orleans. Frank Kulick came as the only Ford Company driver and his "racing partner" did not come. Kulick reported to the race officials, picked up his assigned number 12 and prepared for the meet prior to the end of the day, February 20th.
After race closing of entries, February 20, 1911, a controversy developed regarding the 231 to 300 cubic inch class racers because only two were prepared to race. A.A.A. Rules required three cars to be entered or the 231 to 300 class would have to be cancelled. In order to save that part of the program for promoter Homer C. George, A.A.A. Contest Board official S. M. Butler placed one of the five 161 to 230 cubic inch racers, that were prepared to race, in the 231 to 300 cubic inch scheduled races. The racer he authorized was the 12 car driven by Frank Kulick. How he selected that particular racer is not stated in his ruling against the Case racing team but the race summaries indicate that is what happened. On February 27th, Mr. Butler barred the J. I. Case Company and its team lead driver Lewis Strang from A.A.A. sanctioned racing for one year because of their failure to come to New Orleans with their three racers. The Case racer's failure to report to the officials (show up) had been the cause of the substitution of a smaller class racer into a higher class to salvage the broadly advertised Mardi Gras race card. Mr. Butler was a national level A.A.A. official.

………………………..
Background (Long answer) Weedeater required :lol: :

“Strange” as it turns out, was exactly what happened (pun intended)! :)

The answer was in the material already posted by Rob in this great thread and I just missed it! :(

I have added the links to make it more convenient if anyone is trying to follow this thing.

Frank Kulick was the only Ford Motor Company race car driver that came to the meet, “reported in” to the A.A.A. officials, picked up his car number and competed in the races. He needed to do that before entries closed at the end of the day February 20, 1911. A.A.A. Rules require that entries be closed five days before the first race. That’s why Kulick left Detroit on February 18th.

Kulick drove the same car in two classes. :o AND it was because of someone else!! :shock:

Kulick raced a 161 to 230 cubic inch racer in the two classes of Light Cars because the J. I. Case Company race team failed to come to New Orleans and “report in” to A.A.A. officials and pick up their car numbers. This brought about a decision on a complaint filed after entry closure on February 20, 1911. The punishment to Case followed on February 27th. Mr. Butler was not happy.

The decision was made by S. M. Butler, A.A.A. Contest Board official for the New Orleans races, regarding the complaint made by Homer C. George, the race promoter. See “POWERS OF THE CONTEST BOARD” rules (first column):

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id= ... up;seq=648

The Homer C. George complaint was brought about by the Case race team failing “to report to the officials of the meet”. The whole team did not come to New Orleans!

See “Strang and Case Company Barred By Butler”:

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id= ... up;seq=656

(Content ending with “This year Mr. George brought the matter to the attention of officials at once, with the foregoing result”.)

Three Case cars had been entered by J.I. Case, and Lewis Strang was the Case Team Manager.
Since the Case cars did not show up in New Orleans, one-half the Light Car Division Race Card would have to be cancelled because the Cino and the Corbin were the only two 231 to 300 cubic inch displacement racers that “reported in” to officials by end of day February 20th.

A.A.A. Rules, 218 d. “STARTING” require at least three cars (bottom second column):

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id= ... up;seq=654

S. M. Butler made the decision to have Frank Kulick race as the “third car” in the 231 to 300 cubic inch displacement events driving his 161 to 230 cubic inch racer (he had been assigned the number 12 to that racer according to the Rules).

Butler’s only choices had been 1. Cancel all the 231 to 300 cubic inch class races, or 2. Select one of five 161 to 230 cubic inch racers properly entered in the Light Car Division already. What he did is obvious and that’s it.

Obviously, if there had been a “third” 231 to 300 cubic inch racer that “reported to the race officials” and was assigned a number before closure of entries February 20th, there would have been no need for the complaint nor the above measures taken by S. M. Butler. You cannot just go get a car out of a garage somewhere. It don't work like that even today.

That is why the Race Summaries appear as they do. Kulick changed “hats” but not race cars. He couldn’t do that and it wasn’t his call to make. He was surprised by this turn of events after he arrived in New Orleans. I am sure Henry Ford was pleased about the Case chaos because he was there too.

The A.A.A. officials, the race promoter, the 231 to 300 cubic inch racers and Henry Ford all knew exactly what was going on. It must have been clear to everyone at the time but like a lot of Model T questions we have today, not so easy for us to sort out 108 years later.

Both Ford Motor Company cars were entered as 161 to 230 cubic inch class racers in the February 19th published list of “ Drivers and Card Entered in Meet” with displacements (second column):

https://www.newspapers.com/image/166246 ... rms=Kulick

You can see the three Case cars were still expected on February 19th in the link above.

Also, according to Frank Kulick, the performance was the same because both of the Ford Specials were timed at 87 miles per hour before he left Detroit (second column):

https://www.newspapers.com/image/166262 ... ulick%2B87

A few notes:

The second Ford Motor Company entry was to be driven by Kulick’s “racing partner” who did not come.

A.A.A. Rules require entry closure five days prior to a race event.

The Ford Specials had been shipped from Detroit at least a week before the Case debacle developed.

Both Ford entries were 161 to 230 cubic inch displacement racers and entered “In the smaller class..”.

There were only two 231 to 300 cubic inch racers that competed at the meet, the Corbin and the Cino.

There were five 161 to 230 cubic inch racers that competed at the meet, a Ford, two E.M.F.’s and two Warren-Detroit’s. One of them (our guy) raced with the bigger Corbin and the Cino in their class. Yeah for us! :D

Apparently, the second car never left Russell Motor Company at 2120 Canal Street where Kulick was headquartered for the meet.

Henry Ford was in attendance for the Mardi Gras races.

Frank Kulick had at least TWO 161 to 230 cubic inch Ford Specials over on Woodward by February 1st of 1911... AND we have a great picture of one of them Thank you Rob. Not the other side but a really great picture.

As you can see, Ellis Joubert was also entered, did pick up his number but didn’t race. Maybe he was nervous because his big boss from Detroit was in town or just a little superstitious. Who knows?

Who is S. M. Butler? The Man! :geek:

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id= ... up;seq=548

Please don’t tell me this ain’t fun stuff. Great Project and great thread Rob!!!…. I don’t know how to jump to the bottom though like the old one?
Attachments
FRANK KULICK IN THE 12 CAR - 161 TO 230 CUBIC INCH FORD SPECIAL - STARTED ALL RACES HE COULD AND WON FIVE
FRANK KULICK IN THE 12 CAR - 161 TO 230 CUBIC INCH FORD SPECIAL - STARTED ALL RACES HE COULD AND WON FIVE
ELLIS JOUBERT IN THE 13 CAR - 161 TO 230 CUBIC INCH MODEL T RACER OF HIS OWN DESIGN - DID NOT START A RACE FOR SOME UNKNOWN REASON
ELLIS JOUBERT IN THE 13 CAR - 161 TO 230 CUBIC INCH MODEL T RACER OF HIS OWN DESIGN - DID NOT START A RACE FOR SOME UNKNOWN REASON

User avatar

Topic author
Rob
Posts: 535
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:53 pm
First Name: Rob
Last Name: Heyen
Location: Eastern Nebraska

Re: August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by Rob » Thu May 09, 2019 12:33 pm

Ken,
Just beginning your thread. You mention it is obvious the officials moved one Ford up a class to preserve those races. Without reading a report stating this, I don't believe it obvious. In fact, Ford sent two racers to New Orleans with one driver. This wasn't uncommon for Ford, as almost all the Ford Special racers were driven by Kulick. Ford had not entered multiple cars in one Class C division before, nor after. Again, if that was the plan, Ford would have sent a second driver.

I'll read through and post a few things later.
Thanks for your research and the stimulating exchange of information.

User avatar

DanTreace
Posts: 1190
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:56 am
First Name: Dan
Last Name: Treace
Location: North Central FL
MTFCA Number: 4838
MTFCI Number: 115
Contact:

Re: August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by DanTreace » Thu May 09, 2019 3:03 pm

Photos from Algonquin hill climbs showing Ford Special climbing, with the left front foot off the ground!

View of the hill and spectators. Likely the hill racing enticed folks to go with the Ford, best car to ride up those hills near home. :D

Hill climb 4 copy 2.jpg
The best way is always the simplest. The attics of the world are cluttered up with complicated failures. Henry Ford
Don’t find fault, find a remedy; anybody can complain. Henry Ford

User avatar

Topic author
Rob
Posts: 535
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:53 pm
First Name: Rob
Last Name: Heyen
Location: Eastern Nebraska

Re: August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by Rob » Thu May 09, 2019 3:22 pm

Thanks Dan,
It would be good to see the two upper right photos more clearly if anyone comes across them.

Below is the best example I've found of Ford running three Ford Special racers. One ran in the 300 and under cu. in. Class, one in the under 230, and the "Benz beater" was the 410 cubic inch V nosed racer. Their times, all made on the same day and same track, also indicate the advantage of larger displacement motors, with the smallest making a best lap 56 second mile, the 300 class making a best lap of 52 seconds, and the big Ford making a flat 50 second mile. The one caveat is the "best mile" totals were at a moving start (during the race). Making the big Ford's time more remarkable, it was from a standing start:
IMG_3750.PNG
After looking through everything I can find, it appears to me that Ford intended to run one car against the largest fastest cars at New Orleans, without mention of the other Ford running in the lightweight (161-230) class. It does look like the Cases were all 284 cubic inches, or 121-300 cubic inch division.

Fortunately, more will surface as people continue to search and photos and articles are digitilized.

User avatar

Topic author
Rob
Posts: 535
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:53 pm
First Name: Rob
Last Name: Heyen
Location: Eastern Nebraska

Re: August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by Rob » Thu May 09, 2019 3:43 pm

A question for Dan, Ken, Wayne and anyone following along. I've been puzzling over this for some time. I have three drawings, one for oil tank cap (the rear tank on the Ford Specials had both a gas and oil reservoir):
IMG_3754.PNG
Gas cap:
IMG_3755.PNG
This drawing is labeled "gas tank nozzle flange." However, it also says "file fit to nozzle on dash-tank."
IMG_3756.PNG
Is this the flange for the gas tank, or possibly the "fake" flange for the false tank mounted on the firewall (dash) of the racer with Kulick at the wheel?
IMG_3608.JPG
IMG_3757.PNG
Thanks,
Rob

User avatar

Kaiser
Posts: 392
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 5:32 am
First Name: Leo
Last Name: van Stirum
Location: Netherlands
Board Member Since: 2016

Re: August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by Kaiser » Thu May 09, 2019 4:43 pm

Rob, the third drawing, could that be for cover for the hole where the exhaust exits the fake dashtank, the 'filler' on the dashtank in the photos does not seem to have a large base like the one in the third drawing would make, but the hole in the 'gastank nozzle flange' seems to fit the exhaustpipe rather nicely...
Just a thought.
Keep digging ! ;)
When in trouble, do not fear, blame the second engineer ! 8-)
Leo van Stirum, Netherlands
'23 Huckster, '66 CJ5 daily driver

User avatar

Topic author
Rob
Posts: 535
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:53 pm
First Name: Rob
Last Name: Heyen
Location: Eastern Nebraska

Re: August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by Rob » Thu May 09, 2019 5:02 pm

Leo,
I had not thought of that. Thanks for the suggestion. I don't read drawings well.
Rob


Drkbp
Posts: 118
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:28 am
First Name: Kenneth
Last Name: Parker
Location: Houston, Texas

Re: August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by Drkbp » Thu May 09, 2019 6:35 pm

Dan, Rob,
That's Rice racing the 6 car at the 1910 Algonquin. He wins! :D
Gruener is there too and he races the 5 car.
Attachments
RICE RACING THE 6 CAR - 1910 ALGONQUIN
RICE RACING THE 6 CAR - 1910 ALGONQUIN

User avatar

Topic author
Rob
Posts: 535
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:53 pm
First Name: Rob
Last Name: Heyen
Location: Eastern Nebraska

Re: August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by Rob » Fri May 10, 2019 6:38 am

Ken, if you are still following, a couple of questions. Where did you read/find that only one Ford went to the track at New Orleans (if I'm reading your post correctly, just beginning my second cup at 5:20 a.m.)? And secondly, is there a specific article/comment that indicates both racers were initially entered in the 161-230 cu. in. class?
Thanks,
Rob

Looking at the 1910 Algonquin hill climb, it was interesting to see four Ford entries. Rice and Gruener drove both number 5 and 6 in Class A Division 2, stock fully equipped cars and number 56 and 57 in the stripped Class B stripped free for all. (bottom of the page below from "Motor Age" magazine). Click to see higher resolution.
IMG_3761.PNG
It looks like the stripped racer Rice is driving may have side straight pipes, judging by what may be exhaust on the right side of the hood. I'm not sure the quadrant and hand brake are stock either? The racer does appear to have a coil box, telling me it isn't a Ford Special with Bosch magneto. Does the radiator cap look like different?
IMG_3770.JPG
The full article:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/74d28fne2jl98 ... b.pdf?dl=0

It seems Algonquin HC 1910 did not have non-stock Class C divisions. That would be a reason no Ford Specials (nor Frank Kulick) participated in the hill climb.


Drkbp
Posts: 118
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:28 am
First Name: Kenneth
Last Name: Parker
Location: Houston, Texas

Re: August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by Drkbp » Fri May 10, 2019 12:15 pm

Rob,
Thank you for the summary.
Write-up is wrong in another place! :o
Mixed photos. :lol:
You gotta watch'em! ;)
He's running a lower neck 1910 radiator.
I think we are going to come up with a 161 to 230 cubic inch Ford Special in 1910. Just ;) watch
KP
Attachments
RICE IN 56 CAR-1910 ALGONQUIN -GRUENER IN 57 CAR.JPG


Drkbp
Posts: 118
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:28 am
First Name: Kenneth
Last Name: Parker
Location: Houston, Texas

Re: August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by Drkbp » Fri May 10, 2019 10:47 pm

Rob,
I hear you on the first cup of coffee! :) We had golf ball size hail storm at my Houston place last night and lost power, mess, house and one automobile damaged. :o :(

There was only one Ford Motor Company driver, Frank Kulick, that reported to the A.A.A. officials by 20 February 1911, had his car certified (those are the Rules) and was assigned a number. The other driver does not seem to have appeared. One driver, one car to the track.

If you have not already found the article in my post,

Sunday issue, 19 February 1911, The Times Democrat, New Orleans, LA, page 31, second column. Released to the news media by the race officials a day or so before the "cutoff" five days before the race, Rules.

Both Ford Motor Company cars were entered as 161 to 230 cubic inch class racers in the February 19th published list of “Drivers and Card Entered in Meet” with displacements (last paragraph, second column):

https://www.newspapers.com/image/166246 ... rms=Kulick

(I posted the link because it may be easier to read)

The “Drivers and Card Entered in Meet” lists of cars and drivers, Light Car Division entries, includes the two Ford sponsored racers. Their displacements are confirmed in the bottom paragraph of the same page and column. In the paragraph including the phrase “When it comes to grading of cars…”

We know that one of them is a Ford Special racer because you told us. :) The photograph tells us Kulick was ready for the First race so it is a 161 to 230 cubic inch class Ford Special racer ready to race his class. :D

Since both racers shipped from Detroit were of the same displacement, 161 to 230 cubic inch, I am unclear why we need to know which one. :?

The logic makes for a longer post but since I have it written, no problem if it would help. :D

Ken
Attachments
TWO DOTS - FORD DRIVERS
TWO DOTS - FORD DRIVERS
DISPLACEMENT: SMALLER CLASS = 161 TO 230 CUBIC INCHES
DISPLACEMENT: SMALLER CLASS = 161 TO 230 CUBIC INCHES

User avatar

Topic author
Rob
Posts: 535
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:53 pm
First Name: Rob
Last Name: Heyen
Location: Eastern Nebraska

Re: August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by Rob » Sat May 11, 2019 9:08 am

Ken,
Sorry to hear about the hail. I had not noticed the last paragraph. I am still inclined to suspect Ford did not intent to send another driver, and none was referenced. Some pubs listed Kulick and partner, others such as the Ford Times only mentioned that Kulick was going with two cars. In other events where Kulick attended with multiple cars he drove both (or in the casse of the Michigan State Fairgrounds track in 1911) three different class racers.

As for moving the Ford up a class to fill out the card, I am just as inclined to think an exception to run two cars would have been as likely as having one car move up a class, which was specifically against the rules. Ideally we will someday find a photo of both Fords sent to New Orleans and then have a more definitive answer. I am confident Ford did not enter any other "duplicate" racers in any races or hill climbs from what I've read.

Additionally, the Case team not showing did result in extensive press coverage, and race officials were not aware Strang and his team were not showing until the night before the race. This tells me drivers didn't have to report until the day prior to the race, and officials expected them right up until the last moment. If a car was moved up due to this late withdrawal, i wonder if the press would have included that tidbit with the extensive reports of the no-show incident?

This article that appeared the day of the races reports the racing committee wasn't aware the Case team wouldn't appear until the night before, and were promptly banned from AAA sanctioned races for a year:
IMG_3801.JPG
As mentioned, if moving a Ford to the upper class occurred to make a race card of three cars, it didn't happen until at least the day before the races. If that were the case (pun intended), I suspect the press would have brought that into the discussion. Another point giving us a "clue" may be that Ford did register two racers. As seen with the Strang/Case team, if a car maker entered two racers, it was expected that both race. Ford did indeed enter two cars, paid two entry fees, and I don't see why they would have risked sanction, wasted fees, and not race a car. I believe two were sent, with the intention that Frank Kulick would drive each, in two classes. And that appears to me to be what happened.

Much to learn going forward. Thanks again Ken for your good research and insights,
Rob

User avatar

Atomic Amish
Posts: 36
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:15 am
First Name: Jason
Last Name: Kuczynski
Location: Detroit, MI

Re: August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by Atomic Amish » Sun Mar 15, 2020 5:48 am

Rob,

I've often seen this picture captioned as "1910". It's purported to be Kulick on the ice of Lake St. Clair.

Could it be one of the "Specials" as well? Does anyone know any history on the car?
Kulick on Lake St. Clair
Kulick on Lake St. Clair
My other car is an Amish Drag Buggy.
Barnstormers VSC

Docent- Ford Piquette Avenue Plant
Member- The Henry Ford
Member- The Early Ford Registry #347

User avatar

Topic author
Rob
Posts: 535
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:53 pm
First Name: Rob
Last Name: Heyen
Location: Eastern Nebraska

Re: August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by Rob » Sun Mar 15, 2020 9:38 am

Jason,
I believe this is one of the first Ford “Special” racers. Below is one of the stories about the race that appeared in newspapers and magazines around the country. It was one of Ford’s first speed contests since 1908 (not 1907, as most historians write, because Frank Kulick did track race a Model K in 1908):


F6C772FD-5FAB-421A-B765-FB1212C6482C.jpeg

The reason I believe this is the first “sighting” of a Ford special is due to the speed the Ford is reported to reach during the race with the ice boat, 75.5 mph:


A0FD34DB-C25C-4084-8B70-6EDD034D4FA0.jpeg

Two years later, Frank Kulick ran over the same lake for time with the largest 410 cubic inch racer, making 109 mph.

User avatar

Atomic Amish
Posts: 36
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:15 am
First Name: Jason
Last Name: Kuczynski
Location: Detroit, MI

Re: August 1910. Ford re-enters track racing.

Post by Atomic Amish » Sun Mar 15, 2020 11:52 am

Wow! Thank you for the backstory, Rob!

I'd read a few accounts of it, but not the 'real deal' as you posted.

Huzzah!
My other car is an Amish Drag Buggy.
Barnstormers VSC

Docent- Ford Piquette Avenue Plant
Member- The Henry Ford
Member- The Early Ford Registry #347

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic