Found some water drops under my Lizzy

[rainer]

Hello, I hope somebody has an idea...

After the summer trip at alpenchapter.com I decided to bring my radiator to a company for minor repair (it was leaking a very little bit right between the mesh and upper hose connection. The company re-soldered the brass inlet )it is a 1916 brass radiator, but they notified me about 2-3 very small holes somewhere in the mesh. Some very tiny air bubbles came out when air pressure of 0.3 bar was applied. They wanted to sell me a new mesh
I decided to let it be as is and to see if I loose water at all (because the cooling system normally has no pressure at all).

Well, last weekend the radiator was reinstalled, filled with plain water, and I took a ride, too. Everything fine, the company must also have done some cleaning, it is cooling a little bit better than before. (Perhaps therefore this microscopic holes now in radiator tubes?)

Today I had a look if the radiator is leaking and saw some water drops under my Lizzy on garage floor, but they were at a place where water from radiator cannot get to. The droplets were below the front end of the engine block on right side. I started searching, but the radiator appeared absolutely dry. I placed now some kitchen paper between crank and bottom of radiator. When the radiator is leaking, I will see this on the paper tomorrow.

After 15 minutes I had a look on that. I saw new drops on the floor, so I continued searching. Good news, the kitchen paper below the radiator is still dry.

Bad news: I found some little puddles between oilpan bolts, right below the metal plug (see picture). (Btw.: The copper part in foreground on left side is my oil can. It found a good place there.)

I marked wet points

Fifteen minutes after wiping everything dry and attaching a sheet of toilet paper as indicator, I saw that 1-2 drops must have soaked into the paper. Another drop was hanging on the front of the metal plug, when I touched the plug, my fingertip was wet. Seems my Lizzy will get a new name, "Incontinentia"...

Is there a simple way to seal this leakage?

My first idea was to clean the plug as good as possible with brake cleaner spray and other solvents from any dirt, paint and oil, then apply some glue or sealing goop I used to seal the oilpan and hogshead when I replaced the clutch. But this is relatively close to the manifold, so the temperatures there could be a bit to high for this method. Or will it work? I don't want to make it even worse.

Any useful suggestion is welcome.

Thanks in advance!

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

Remove the leaking plug, clean everything up, and install a new one.

[Kaiser]

Yes, replacing is the only cure, the plugs rust through fromthe inside, when it starts to leak it is probably paperthin allready, its not a big job, just in a hard to reach place

[rainer]

Hi, Jerry.

What tools are required to install the new plug?
How do I get the old plug out?

Is the plug sealing only by pressure - metal to metal - or is some sealant used in addition?

[speedytinc]

Remove the leaking plug, clean everything up, and install a new one.

A little permatex aviation in the recess before the new plug goes in. Use brass. The freeze plugs I have been getting need to be smaller in diameter to set well. This is done by laying in a socket with a ball peen hammer, dish more. If 1 leaks the other 2 will also soon. Plan on doing them all now.

[Norman Kling]

I am reluctant to give any advice about replacement of parts, not because I know what to do, but because I do not know whether you have a source of parts in your area. If they have to be imported, it would be more expensive. There are 3 of those plugs, the front one is the easiest to access. The other two would need removal and replacement of manifold. Then you would need new gaskets for the manifolds.
Best replacements are the brass plugs. the old ones would have a hole drilled in the center being careful not to go into the block when the drill goes through the brass. Then all dirt scraped out of the hole. Then some high temperature sealant placed into the hole in the block and let set for a short while. Then the plug inserted, but not driven tight until it sets up a while longer. Then take a flat punch with a hammer and tap right in the center, which will spread the plug as tight as it can go. Then let it set two days until everything is hard. Next fill with water and check for leaks. If OK put in the new manifold gaskets and put the manifolds back in place. and torque down.

The next best fix would be to drain out all water and coolant and let things thoroughly dry, maybe for a few days until nothing seeps out. Then clean everything around the plug completely clean and get some sealer. Maybe even something like JB weld. smear this over the area all around the plug being to force it into any grooves or low places. Let this cure according to instructions and then fill and look for leaks. Every time you drive the car, check your coolant level before starting the engine and top off. If you take a rest break or a meal break on a tour, check coolant level again before you start the engine. Carry some spare coolant along to add just in case it leaks out. Tools to get the old plug out, would be a small drill bit. Drill in center of plug. Then take a tool like a small punch or phillips screw driver into the hole to pry it out.
Norm

[speedytinc]

Hi, Jerry.

What tools are required to install the new plug?
How do I get the old plug out?

Is the plug sealing only by pressure - metal to metal - or is some sealant used in addition?

Punch a sharp medium screwdriver into the center & pull down. It will be impaled on the driver.
They are dished. Hitting the dish(high side) forces the disk to contact the bore's edges. Edges must be clean & sharp. It is sealed by metal to metal pressure, but a little sealer heips insure no weeping.
Remember the seating surface has been in the water jacket 100 years. To that point, if you dont have a solid metal edge for seating, the counter bores can be recut to stock size deeper or to an oversize. Not easy in place, but doable with some specialized tooling.

[rainer]

I am reluctant to give any advice about replacement of parts, not because I know what to do, but because I do not know whether you have a source of parts in your area. If they have to be imported, it would be more expensive. There are 3 of those plugs, the front one is the easiest to access. The other two would need removal and replacement of manifold. ...
Norm

Luckily it is the front one.
I need to import them from Germany, there is a good seller, rudolf's oldtimershop, he has for sure some stock. As you can see on the picture, there is some brass shining through the dirt, so this will already be brass plugs (I think).

About High Temperature Sealant... The black sealant I used for the hogshead is not sufficient, or is it? What temperatre must it be good for?

Can you describe more detailed the insertion of the new plug? I assume it will not be a flat disk, it will have the shape if a ball. Am I right that it has to be inserted with its belly facing outwards (to me)? As "flat punch" I can use any kind of round material with flat front end, place it on top of the plug and give it a hit with a hammer?

[speedytinc]

Ultra silicone would work. Temperature will be the water temp+ maybe, no more than 250 degrees.
Your description of the install is correct. Shaped like a bowl, with the "bottom" of the bowl toward you, yes.

[DanTreace]

If you want a 'fix' J-B Weld (good to 550 degrees F, but the side of the block will never see that temp.) or other good epoxy over the freeze (core) plug will stop the slow weep.

Did it on the '24 and lasted for years until the motor was pulled for re-work. Then brass plugs installed. Don't use simple steel plug, the original Ford-steel plugs lasted decades, but the new modern low cost steel plugs today will not last.

For replacing with a new brass plug, here are some pics, how to remove and how to install.

663158.jpg (118.72 KiB) Viewed 3618 times

[rainer]

Major correction.

The current plug is steel, not brass. I sprayed lots of brake cleaner on it and wiped it. The "golden shine" was away and I saw naked steel, no brass.

As mentioned by Kaiser, the plug is paper thin and leaking in its center. I slightly pressed it with the blade of a flat screwdriver and could feel how it bends back, so this is really pure rust on inner side. Must be replaced.

I stopped further leaking by using some "Reinzosil Universal Sealing Compound". I smeared it over the entire cleaned plug and also some millimeters over surrounding engine block. Reinzosil is silicone based sealant and good for up to 300°C, black, and permanently elastic. This stuff I used when I reworked the clutch and I had a bit remaining.

So it will - at least - not continue dripping water on my garage floor until I replace the plug (this is a winter job) and I will be hopefully able to do some drives till then, too. Tomorrow I will see if it is dry now.

Thanks for all your valuable hints.

Rainer

[Norman Kling]

If your plug is that thin and is leaking in the center, it might not be very smart to drive it on a tour unless you are followed by a trailer to bring it home. When those plugs blow out, your water will pour out and steam will blow it out. At least carry some new ones along. You might need to replace on the road. Not as good as the instructions above, but it can be done by the side of the road. I had to replace one with a U.S. Nickle coin one time. I was able to fill up with water and go on to complete the tour. I don't know whether you have a coin where you live which would fit. With the Nickle, I used a socket about the size of the coin and a ball peen to get the curve in the coin, and then put it in just as I would do with the actual plug.
Norm

[speedytinc]

The other 2 are in line to fail also.

[rainer]

Hello, and thank you so much for your input.

Today I received new brass plugs from Germany, so I started to remove the old bad plug. As Dan Triace showed with his pictures, the rusty plug was pulled within 1 minute. It was extremely rusty in its center. Then I cleaned the hole by scratching out all residue with a flat screw driver, cleaned with brake cleaner spray, scratched again, ...

Now the hole looks like this:

This picture was taken before I cleaned the grey residue around the hole with my brass brush. This stuff was actually black, it was some silicone to stop leaking on my garage floor (actually this was not successful, silicone does not stick well on wet metal). Now the engine is also clean around the hole. Is the hole in sufficiently good condition?

Because the other plugs are currently in good condition (means they resisted when I pressed a screw driver on them and the do not leak), I will keep them for the moment, but I already have spare plugs for them, too.

What I am not sure about, and I kindly please for your recommendations again:

• I definitely want to use either J B Weld's "Liquid Metal" or High Temperature Silicone to ensure that the new plug is watertight. What is better? JB Weld will harden and is good for 550°F, the silicone will remain a bit elastic.
• I tested how well the new brass plug fits into the hole, it is a little bit too big and doesn't slide in. Shall I grind/file it down to a slide fit, or shall I force it into the hole with a little chisel? We are talking of ~0.4mm difference in diameter. I'd prefer filing it down.

[Scott_Conger]

For the question you did NOT ask: "Yes, you should switch over to coolant in your car, or you will sooner or later rust through your block"

[speedytinc]

Do not file the plug.
Dish it more. Lay the plug on the mouth of a 12 pt socket. About the same OD or a fuzz smaller than the plug. Press the ball end of a ball peen hammer into the "bowl"
This will make the plug smaller to fit.

[rainer]

For the question you did NOT ask: "Yes, you should switch over to coolant in your car, or you will sooner or later rust through your block"

Scott, I will use coolant, but not right now. My hope is that this very little pinholes (I have three in my radiator tubes) will be closed by calcium. If this doesn't happen till winter, I will try to do what a German man did: He coated the tubes with tank sealant paint (or however this paint is named), it resists this temperatures and water. His radiator is still sealed after years.
The major problem is locating the holes, I don't have such a big tub. So I think about using a thin toilet-paper wrapped stick and pushing it between the radiator ribs. it is is wet, I mark that region and try next row...
Then I will clean and coat all tubes there, fill the radiator with water, search again ... A long job for winter time.

[rainer]

Do not file the plug.
Dish it more. Lay the plug on the mouth of a 12 pt socket. About the same OD or a fuzz smaller than the plug. Press the ball end of a ball peen hammer into the "bowl"
This will make the plug smaller to fit.

What is a 12 pt socket? A 1/2" Pipe Thread socket?

Luckily I bought a set of ball peen hammers (three sizes) last week. So I can find the best fitting one and hammer it decently into the "bowl".
What is the major reason for not filing the plug? Uneven edge?

[Scott_Conger]

ahh...I forgot about the radiator...too bad I can't send you some water...we have a well which has the best tasting water, but has so much calcium in it, I think it could plug your open freeze plugs in a day or two...

[rainer]

ahh...I forgot about the radiator...too bad I can't send you some water...we have a well which has the best tasting water, but has so much calcium in it, I think it could plug your open freeze plugs in a day or two...

Let's see... As long as no water drips down from the radiator and I can't see wet ribs, it isn't really bad and chances are good that this holes close over time. The radiator repair company has cleaned the brass radiator and the brass was then very "copper-ish" on many places, also where he didn't re-solder. So I think he must have used some acid. This possibly opened the pinholes, too.
At 0.3-0.4 bar pressure little air bubbles came out. But this radiator is running without pressure... and it was in range of 2-3" from upper chamber (even less static pressure).

In worst case I come to you for some water.

[speedytinc]

Do not file the plug.
Dish it more. Lay the plug on the mouth of a 12 pt socket. About the same OD or a fuzz smaller than the plug. Press the ball end of a ball peen hammer into the "bowl"
This will make the plug smaller to fit.

What is a 12 pt socket? A 1/2" Pipe Thread socket?

Luckily I bought a set of ball peen hammers (three sizes) last week. So I can find the best fitting one and hammer it decently into the "bowl".
What is the major reason for not filing the plug? Uneven edge?

Its a socket, normally used with a ratchet,3/8 or 1/2" drive. Used on hex head bolts. Sockets can be 6 point for a hex nut or bolt. The more common socket to work on a hex head bolt is 12 point. Some call it a double hex socket.
This is the most convenient tool for the job, however a piece of tubing or a bushing will also work. The goal is to support the outer edge of the plug enough to allow the process of more a deeper dishing.

[Allan]

You will have greater control over the dishing the plug a bit more by assembling it, the 12 point socket and the ball pein hammer in a vice and using the vice to apply pressure.No chance of miss-hits or movement of the plug on the socket.
My sealant of choice for the fitting is Permatex No 2.

Allan from down under.

[John kuehn]

I used a nickel out of my pocket for a replacement plug. Any coin that’s the same size of a nickel will work and they are made of some type of nickel / copper mix in other countries.

I can’t remember for sure what size socket I used but it was one that a nickel was just a little smaller and would dimple down by using a small ball peen hammer to dimple it out some to fit exactly in the block.
Its a simple fix right out of your pocket. And of course clean out the hole with a pick/ screwdriver or etc , use some type of JB weld or sealant and tap it in.

And the alloy of the coin won’t rust either.

[rainer]

You will have greater control over the dishing the plug a bit more by assembling it, the 12 point socket and the ball pein hammer in a vice and using the vice to apply pressure. No chance of miss-hits or movement of the plug on the socket.
My sealant of choice for the fitting is Permatex No 2.

Allan from down under.

Hello, Allan,
"Permatex No. 2" appears to be very identical to "Reinzosil" I have here. This is also a black color permanent-elastic 1K sealant for up to 300°C, resistant against water and oil. I used it to seal everything when I reworked the clutch. I also tend to prefer a soft sealant instead of hard 2K compound, this will make it easier to get out the plug when it leaks again. With JB Weld this could become a little odyssee.

I will apply it to the step bore's edge, also cover the inner side and edge of the new plug, and insert the plug. After setting the plug in with no force, I will wait some minutes before hammering it flat, so the sealant can become a bit stiffer. Or should I immediately use the hammer? Finally I will squeeze excessive sealant around the plug from outside and wipe all the remaining surface of the plug.


Yes, using a vice is a good idea, this gives more control. (I would have done it by using a ball peen hammer for the plug and using a second hammer to hit on the first.)

Rainer

[rainer]

Finally I want to share a picture of finished plug.

I did it according to Allan's suggestions, I used Reinzosil which is for sure very identical to Permatex #2.

I had to squeeze the

I dished the plug a little bit more by squeezing it in my vice. I only had a 6 points socket, but it worked, too. The final rest I filed off. It was only a very little edge from punching the plug.
Then I cleaned again the step bore with brake cleaner and wiped the cleaner off to avoid any residue, put lots of Reinzosil into the edges and also covered the entire water side of the plug with it and inserted it.
As flattening tool I cut 4-5" from concrete arming steel and grinded it round and flat. It worked like a charm because it was only a very little bit thinner than the bore. Some decent hits with a hammer and the brass plug was flat.
Finally I smoothed excess Reinzosil material with my finger in the edges and wiped the plug clean - see picture.

Tomorrow I will fill in water.

Thanks again for all your valuable information.

Rainer.

[DHort]

Looks like you did a great job Rainer. Congratulations on learning something new.