Identify / Verify / Serial Numbers

[1914ROADSTERT]

Greetings Once Again,

Our family managed to get some work done on our 1914 Roadster this past weekend.

Restored coils were installed after cleaning and adjusting coil box contacts, checked, cleaned, and adjusted all wires and confirmed strong magneto output by having my son hold the spark plug.

It was an accident ok?

Then after pre oiling everything we managed to get each cylinder to fire with just a bit of ether.

Pulled tank for cleaning and removed the carb <NH> for rebuild.

So here is where we get to the questions. We really went over every inch of the machine this weekend.

Our registration says, and, fenders, body details, radiator attachment hardware, pedals, etc, all lead me to believe this is a 1914 Model T Serial Number 500xxx, made in April of 1914.

But, under the seat we can see the following, 109003 B4-14.

Now, here's a number on the rear of the head

And here is the area above the cooling elbow

All I could really make out is, well, looks like at one time there were a bunch of zeroes there above the fitting.

To the right of the cooling elbow is the only other number

There it looks like 4 7 14.

So, I'm trying to determine how many disparate spare parts may have been used in the past to get this vehicle to this point.

Any knowledge given much appreciated!

[mtntee20]

The number under the seat is most likely a BODY number put in by the body manufacturer. Since a majority of bodies were purchased by Ford for the Ts, the manufacturers needed a way to keep track of them, so they stamped in their own numbers. These numbers have significance IF you can ID the manufacturer AND find that manufacturers appropriate number list/information.

The casting date on your BLOCK appears to indicate April 7, 1914. Too bad you are unable to read the number above the coolant inlet elbow. THAT is the VIN for the vehicle. Much later, I think about '23 or so, Ford did stamp that VIN number into the frame as well as on the block.

You may or may not be able to gently sand off the paint, rust, and crud enough to be able to discern the numbers after removing the inlet elbow. Maybe not. But, it's worth a try to get the exact number and thus the exact build date.

In today's world, VIN numbers are LONG. IF you are unable to read the number off of the inlet pad, you might consider using the BODY number as the VIN. While it's NOT proper, the DMV nuts will love it.

Good Luck,
Terry

[Erik Johnson]

Model Ts are dated by the serial number stamped on the block, just above the water inlet.

The embossed date to the right of the block is the date the block was cast.

I have always believed that the numbers embossed on the head are month and day the head was cast.

Body numbers were stamped by the respective body manufacturer. They do not match the motor serial number. Depending on the manufacturer, they typically include the month, day and year. I believe the "4 -14" on your body stands for April 1914.

You have nothing to worry about.

PS: Model Ts do not have VINs from the factory (that is a modern term for a standarized formal system across manufacturers for assigning identification numbers to vehicles). They have serial numbers on the motor. States use the serial number in lieu of a VIN for registration purposes.

[TWrenn]

My "w.a. guess" is it's a Beuadette body, '14 casting date, with a later head. Not uncommon. Like Terry said, too bad the "serial number" above the inlet pipe is so hard to read. That's the number for your title. And as I also recall, body numbers began to be stamped on frames either very late '25, or in '26 models til end of production.

[John kuehn]

You didn’t mention how long your family has owned your T but it’s not a big surprise to find that over the years later parts could have been used on your car. You also mentioned you have a good title. I would use the information that’s on it. Some have gone to great lengths to “correct” some information that may not be exactly right on the title only to find a quagmire getting it straightened out. The DMV might give you grief or may not.

Just maybe you could read the vin number over the water outlet on the block if you removed the outlet fitting and slightly sanded the area to pull out the original numbers since they are on the papers you have. As far as changed parts the modern water hose clamp is new to this T by about 40+ years.
It will depend on who you go to at your DMV. Some “wrong thinking” perfectionist DMV person might roll his eyes and think that the original number was changed since it’s not real clear. I’m not trying to be negative but do realize they may be asking lots of questions about it.
You have a real nice T and all will probably go well but be ready for anything IF you go to a DMV! AND just give them the basic info and not a long story about your car. It will only complicate things!
Good luck!

[1914ROADSTERT]

I appreciate all the information!

The car was restored by my wife's grandfather in late 54/early 55 and saw minimal use during the late 50's and 60's. The car has since passed through relatives families and as I understand it, was stored in a climate controlled basement since the early 70's and saw the light of day only sporadically.

My wife's mother who drove it often wants it to run again.

As it is written so it shall be done.

The new day timer that was in there worked perfectly by the way, I will at some point be installing the I-timer that has been purchased.

Thanks to all once again!

[DLodge]

...AND just give them the basic info and not a long story about your car. It will only complicate things!

What John said is absolutely correct. I went with a friend to the DMV once. My friend is friendly, chatty and likes to be helpful. He kept yammering on with all kinds of unnecessary (but in his view informative) details about the car, the transaction, and whatever else occurred to him. I was biting my tongue the whole time, since I wanted to tell him to SHUT UP! Just stick to the minimum necessary. Fortunately in this case, the DMV person's goal was to make a minimum of work for himself and he didn't ask any of the questions he might have. We were lucky.

[rickd]

Joe, A little more 14 info. I have a 14 Touring pretty close to the engine number of your car. Mine is 5004xx April 21, 1914. Casting date in late March and a data plate number of 471313. I agree with Tim that you have a Beaudette body. My 14 is a Beaudette with a body number of 4.14.90072. On some Beaudette bodies the heel panel was also stamped with a B at the top of the metal riser. MIne has the B stamped on both the front and rear seat heel panels. Email me through this site if you have any questions. Enjoy, sounds like a good time getting that Runabout back on the road.

[Wayne Sheldon]

Pretty good chance that very little if anything major (other than tires, hoses, and clamps?) was ever changed on your car.
Ford at that time was moving very quickly from casting to machining to assembly. An April first or seventh block or April 18 cast head could easily have been on a late April assembled car. Blocks have been confirmed that made it from casting to assembly in a week, and heads could be done even more quickly because much less machining and QC was required for them.
The body manufacturers serial numbers seem to be pretty much useless for dating or tracking body dates. The date codes are probably the best you can get, and they only provide a timeframe.
Those date coded serial numbers were originally used for billing and quality control issues. Apparently, nobody kept or tracked the numbers much beyond the car being sold new. We tried a few years ago to collect a data base of date codes and serial numbers for the various manufacturers. Along with additional known information about the cars the bodies were on, we hoped to get a good timeline for the serial numbers. But not nearly enough people responded with useful information, and the effort ended.
Your body might be usable for a DMV serial number if necessary. However, it would not be proper. And you would run the risk (statistically small) of that number being duplicated by some other car somewhere in the country, Ford or otherwise. Read the current thread on troubles with a serial number in Tennessee. It actually happens fairly often. I know someone with a 1917 White touring car with a serial number duplicated on an unrelated car in another state. Consider the simple fact that later model A Fords duplicated model T numbers up to about five million, along with all the Buicks and Chevrolets and a dozen other companies all over the country that used simple numeric serial numbers. Duplication has to happen.

If you have a proper family transferable title for the car? If you can avoid (in your state?) having the number verified? Best to avoid it. If necessary, CAREFULLY clean the pad on the block to see if the original number can be read. It MIGHT help to carefully file the surface to remove surface damage and help reveal the original number. This can often work, HOWEVER it can also cause serious problems if the DMV wants to suspect you of trying to alter or hide something!!!! Sometimes they look for something over which to cause trouble!

The closeups look like it might be a nice original car! We would love to see lots more and full pictures of it.

[John kuehn]

If you have to transfer the title make sure you decide whose name will be on it!! You said it’s a family involved project so MAKE SURE everyone is up to speed about the right name! It has come up on the forum that the original owner didn’t have a will and it wasn’t clarified who the car was to be left to. Sometimes it can and has gotten messy about passed down property. It sounds like several have driven and enjoyed the car. It is important to decide about this while the older owner is still alive if he or she is.

[1914ROADSTERT]

John, Wayne, Rick and All,

Thanks so much for the information. The paperwork is good and taken care of for this car thankfully. I appreciate the good food for thought.

I just finished the fuel tank cleaning, that went really well.

Looking forward to getting the NH non original carb back on.

Of course, I will be installing correct hoses and clamps when the original "patched by me" radiator is reinstalled

I'm starting to look around for a prestolite tank and lines for the lamps. Although perhaps a complete generator would be better as that's what the holes match up to on the running board.

All great fun, my son seems to be enjoying the project.

As always, Kind Regards All.