A good(?) hood question (Pictures Added)

Reno Speedster · Post by **Reno Speedster** » Sun Oct 23, 2022 2:10 am

So, bad news first, my wife managed to catch Covid last weekend and brought it home to me. We held out this long but you can only be so careful. It is not really bad so far, but it’s enough to keep me out of the shop. However, being laid up does not keep me from cruising the site and thinking about things to buy and do. By the way, whoever got the fat man wheel recently sold on the wire for $250 was roundly cursed at my house (out of shear jealousy!), but I digress.

So this is my question. My hood appears to be a tight fit between the body and radiator shell. Enough that the paint is wearing in some places from the friction. Is this normal? And if not, how do I fix it?

Allan · Post by **Allan** » Sun Oct 23, 2022 5:09 am

It would help of we knew if the paint was rubbing off the cowl or the radiator shell, at the top or the bottom, on the left or right side.
On the information given, you could adjust the stay rod between the radiator and the cowl, to open up the gap between them.
Allan from down under.

Reno Speedster · Post by **Reno Speedster** » Sun Oct 23, 2022 9:52 am

Good points. It’s rubbing mostly at the top on both the shell and body on both sides. But the sides are pretty tight as well. Both the radiator and body use the standard mounts and hardware. Adjusting the rod would be a good place to start.

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Sun Oct 23, 2022 10:15 am

Adjusting the rod to get even vertical gaps would be where to start. Be careful not to put the radiator in a strain. Adjust the uppper hose connection, if necessary, and be sure that there is some "give" in the lower radiator to frame attachments. There may be some additional adjustment available where the shell is attached to the radiator. On some cars, the hood will tend to move forward due to vibration and chassis flex. This can be addressed in several ways. If the radiator is not leaning backward, the frame may be sagged. Shimming the body might help. Mounting holes in the frame or body and shell that are worn out oversize or out of round could contribute to alignment problems.

Reno Speedster · Post by **Reno Speedster** » Tue Oct 25, 2022 12:49 pm

Here are some pictures of the hood gaps and the chipping.

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Tue Oct 25, 2022 12:56 pm

Is there any chance the hood is the wrong one? Short of that, either the body or the radiator, or both, must be out of place on the frame. ( ? Unless there are differences in frame mounting hole locations for body or radiator from year to year). A sagged frame would close the gaps at the top, but open them at the bottom. Yours look too tight, top and bottom.

Post by **TRDxB2** » Tue Oct 25, 2022 1:20 pm

What's going on here?

MichaelPawelek · Post by **MichaelPawelek** » Tue Oct 25, 2022 1:30 pm

If you are getting excess rust on the hood hinges and they creak a lot I would recommend the stainless steel hood rods sold by the vendors. With a sparing amount of paste wax applied they slide in easily and keep the hinge area cleaner. Also really easy if you ever need to take the hood apart in the future.

Post by **Moxie26** » Tue Oct 25, 2022 1:43 pm

Pre. '26-'27 frames will sag more than the "improved". Adjustment is needed at the top end, so that the upper radiator hose will have to be replaced after the hood rod from the radiator to the cowl is screwed out to lengthen space to fit hinged hood.

Reno Speedster · Post by **Reno Speedster** » Tue Oct 25, 2022 1:45 pm

Anything is possible as far as the hood is concerned. I don’t know enough about the variations to know if there are differences in length. I do have a 26 hood off of a Canadian car in the shed that I can compare, but that is my only option.

The mounts for the radiator and frame look standard to me. The steering column firewall to lower bracket fit is correct, so I think the body position is at least approximately correct. The wood firewall has been replaced with a metal one, but that was common when the wood ones rotted out. And, to the best of my knowledge it it did not result in a change in the position of the steering column.

I would think that if the frame is sagged, it would be tight at the top.

I am not sure what is going on in the circled area.

Allan · Post by **Allan** » Tue Oct 25, 2022 8:21 pm

The circle reveals a little recognised problem with hood fitting. Original hoods have a downward bend adjacent to the centre hinge. Without that bend, as the hood is closed, the centre hinge is lifted out of the receiver on the shell, affecting the hood fit. The new replacement hoods from Rootlieb are of excellent quality, but you must make those bends when fitting the hood.
Allan from down under.

Reno Speedster · Post by **Reno Speedster** » Tue Oct 25, 2022 8:46 pm

Thanks. I will look at that. I don’t know if this is an original or not. A poorly fitted reproduction hood could be at the heart of the issue.

Post by **Moxie26** » Tue Oct 25, 2022 9:40 pm

Hey Reno Speedster .....what year and body style has the hood problem ?

Reno Speedster · Post by **Reno Speedster** » Tue Oct 25, 2022 10:54 pm

It’s a 22 runabout with a pickup bed. But, as with most cars, there are a mix of parts on it.

Post by **Moxie26** » Tue Oct 25, 2022 10:57 pm

Looks like a metal firewall in the picture. Do the hood sides come down to meet the hood clasps, or is the hood short? Late 1922 's had a higher cowl and radiator, and a metal firewall instead of wood.

Post by **Mark Gregush** » Tue Oct 25, 2022 11:24 pm

Moxie26 wrote: ↑
Tue Oct 25, 2022 10:57 pm
Looks like a metal firewall in the picture. Do the hood sides come down to meet the hood clasps, or is the hood short? Late 1922 's had a higher cowl and radiator, and a metal firewall instead of wood.

That is a low type cowl and hood is correct for that application. The metal firewall was introduced in 1923 on the low radiator cars and used as a replacement after that for wood firewalls 1917 on.
The high cowls started in late 1924 with introduction of the 1924 models.

Reno Speedster · Post by **Reno Speedster** » Wed Oct 26, 2022 12:14 am

Quite correct, the hood is the right height and the latches fit properly.

Norman Kling · Post by **Norman Kling** » Wed Oct 26, 2022 12:46 am

The first thing to start with is a straight chassis. They tend to sag especially on the right side because both the torque of the engine and the action of the transmission brake affect that side. Then there is the fit of the radiator. It can be shimmed up on one side at the point where it bolts to the block. That will cause it to lean in the opposite direction from the block Next is the front of the cowl can be shimmed on one side or the other. These combinations along with the adjustment of the rod at the top of the radiator will align the hood with the body. Then one by one the locations of the bolts holding the body to the frame can be shimmed or the wood block planed down a bit to get the doors to fit both the angle of the hinge and the fit of the door between the posts. The straighter the frame and the better the wood in the body, the less shimming and other adjustments need to be made. All adjustments should be made from side to side starting at the front and working to the back of the body.
Norm

Allan · Post by **Allan** » Wed Oct 26, 2022 1:08 am

A little denunciation for some. The photos show hood shelves with no dogleg (dongle for auto correct) at the back, so that indicates a low, narrow firewall.
There are no reliefs in the hood side panels to accept the hood latches, so it is a low hood.
These two attributes mean the combination is correct.

For a high radiator hood there are doglegs in the.hood shelves, and the wider hood means there must be reliefs in the side panels for the hood latches.

The two pairs of components cannot be mixed, if the hood is to fit, just as the radiator shell cannot be swapped/ cut down to fit.

Allan from down under.

Allan · Post by **Allan** » Wed Oct 26, 2022 1:12 am

Oops! Auto correct did not recognise edumication! I am certainly not in denunciation mode

Does anyone among you know how to disable Auto correct on an Android phone?

Allan from down under.

Reno Speedster · Post by **Reno Speedster** » Wed Oct 26, 2022 3:11 am

So, short of taking the car apart how do I check the straightness of the frame? I already have one T project in pieces all over the shop, I am not going to take a second car to pieces over poor hood gaps.

I am planning on taking the radiator out over the winter to deal with a missing bolt in the left fender mount, so I can check things there.

And for some raw data, how long should the hood be and how big should the gap between the radiator housing and the dash be?

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Wed Oct 26, 2022 10:08 am

To check the frame, you need a FLAT, level floor. I believe the top of the frame rails are supposed to be straight from front to back. If that's the case, getting all four corners of the frame level to the floor should allow you to check the frame for sag by measuring from the top of the frame rails to the floor at several locations along the length of each frame rail. If the frame is reasonably straight and the car looks and operates OK except for the hood fit problem, the easiest fix would probably be to move the radiator forward by modifying the location of the lower mounting holes as needed. Enlarging the mounting holes in the radiator mounts and making a pair of sheet metal plates with holes located off-center and soldered or pop rivited to the mounts might work. It might be necessary to lengthen the support rod, also. **** I would check the mounting holes in the lower radiator mounts to see if they are the correct diameter for the car, or if they are the larger holes used on the later cars that had springs and thimbles at the lower radiator mounts.

Post by **TRDxB2** » Wed Oct 26, 2022 11:49 am

Past discussions about hood fitting mostly have issues with the vertical sides not aligning properly & caused by frame issues. Your pictures show a nice fit on the vertical sides of the hood. As noted one cause of the misfit of the hood rod in the receiver on the radiator might be resolved by a bend in the hood rod. I am also wondering if the radiator shell was moved up a bit would that also resolve the issue. The fitting of the shell around the filler neck looks a bit tight too. So since the car is a "bitsa" it would help to identify the parts with pictures and measurements

: hoodbb.png (164.09 KiB) Viewed 3582 times

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Wed Oct 26, 2022 12:07 pm

From the pictures, it appears to me that your car's body and radiator are too close together. The hood alignment looks pretty good, suggesting that the frame is OK, but the spacing between the shell and the cowl is too small. I would guess that the lower radiator mounting is the culprit, since the lower radiator mounts consist of just two bolts, while the body is attached at many points, including the steering column, and the upper radiator brace has considerable adjustment. If the radiator was ever taken apart for service, it's possible the mounting harness was not put back on it in exactly the right place.

Post by **Jerry VanOoteghem** » Wed Oct 26, 2022 12:09 pm

Do not bend any rods...

The problem with the rod fitting into the receiver, is caused by the sheet metal of the hood being bent. Notice how the hood slopes upward, from the front edge and going towards the 1st loop of the hinge? It should not do that. Place a small strip of wood, (like a popsicle stick), under the front edges of the hood, on both sides of the hinge, and push down on the hinge until that slope is removed. This bend is usually caused by laying the hood over on itself when opening it. It overstresses the hinge.

As to your fitment at the front & rear, have you adjusted the radiator support rod yet??? I'm confident that's all you need to do.

: hoodbb.png (162.16 KiB) Viewed 3571 times

Post by **TRDxB2** » Wed Oct 26, 2022 12:18 pm

Also there maybe some bolts to connect the sides of the shell to the radiator. Seems to be inconsistent assemble issue

Reno Speedster · Post by **Reno Speedster** » Wed Oct 26, 2022 12:24 pm

Good points folks. The car runs and drives fine. I agree that the radiator and body are too close together. I will check the hood measurements against the measurements sent.

The frame measurement method sounds good.

I probably should have mentioned earlier that the radiator is a new one. Not sure who made it, but it is possible that it is the heart of the issue. As I mentioned before, I plan to remove the radiator over the winter, so that should become clear.

Post by **TRDxB2** » Wed Oct 26, 2022 1:14 pm

Reno Speedster wrote: ↑
Wed Oct 26, 2022 12:24 pm
Good points folks. The car runs and drives fine. I agree that the radiator and body are too close together. I will check the hood measurements against the measurements sent.

The frame measurement method sounds good.

I probably should have mentioned earlier that the radiator is a new one. Not sure who made it, but it is possible that it is the heart of the issue. As I mentioned before, I plan to remove the radiator over the winter, so that should become clear.

The above are more shell measurements these are the radiator measurements
1917-23

Reno Speedster · Post by **Reno Speedster** » Fri Oct 28, 2022 4:54 pm

I did some checking and found that the bolts are missing from the firewall mounting brackets, but the holes between the frame and brackets are perfectly aligned. This would appear to indicate the body is properly located. Unless, there are different brackets for the wood and metal firewalls.

Post by **RajoRacer** » Fri Oct 28, 2022 5:18 pm

Yes there is ! Wooden brackets have a considerable set-back compared to the steel dash counterparts.

Reno Speedster · Post by **Reno Speedster** » Fri Oct 28, 2022 5:24 pm

Well, that’s interesting. I never would have thought of checking that if the bolts were in place.

Snyder’s lists two types, the 23-27 ones look like they would place the body back 1/4-3/8 of an inch, which would fix my issue. The other body mounts have slots that would allow the body to slide back that much. My only concern would be fitting the steering column to the firewall.

Snyder’s claims that the earlier brackets can be used on both wood and steel firewalls, which I think would be an issue.

Post by **kmatt2** » Fri Oct 28, 2022 6:07 pm

I didn’t have the time to read this entire post but from the pictures of your car I see the posable problem with your poor hood fit. First fix the problem with the firewall to frame brackets. The 1917-23 wood firewall uses a different bracket than the 1923 low steel firewall due to the different thickness of the types of firewalls, the frame mount holes are in the same place. Next the pictures show the correct hood shelf’s and hood side panels for your 1917-23 low cowl car. The problem is it looks like your hood top half’s are for a high cowl car. This happens to a lot of people that make up a complete hood from lose parts as it all fits together but will not fit once on the car due to the different measurements along the curved part of the hood top. Check the drawings that someone posted to this thread for the correct measurements for a 1917-23 hood to see if this is your problem.

Reno Speedster · Post by **Reno Speedster** » Fri Oct 28, 2022 7:39 pm

So, are the brackets for the low steel firewall the same as the high radiator cars? I have a set of 26 ones on hand somewhere.

I am still concerned about how moving the body back a fraction of an inch will be possible without having an issue with the column mount.

I will measure the hood panels. Honestly, the length thing is of much more concern.

Allan · Post by **Allan** » Fri Oct 28, 2022 7:47 pm

I can see no reason why the brackets for a low steel firewall should be different to the high firewall. The difference is required to compensate for the 3/4" thick low wooden firewall.. The vertical face on wood firewall brackets is set well forward, while the bolt holes in the frame are in the same place

Post by **TRDxB2** » Fri Oct 28, 2022 8:08 pm

Reno Speedster wrote: ↑
Fri Oct 28, 2022 5:24 pm
Well, that’s interesting. I never would have thought of checking that if the bolts were in place.

Snyder’s lists two types, the 23-27 ones look like they would place the body back 1/4-3/8 of an inch, which would fix my issue. The other body mounts have slots that would allow the body to slide back that much. My only concern would be fitting the steering column to the firewall.

Snyder’s claims that the earlier brackets can be used on both wood and steel firewalls, which I think would be an issue.

Reno Speedster · Post by **Reno Speedster** » Fri Oct 28, 2022 8:27 pm

Great information. Thanks. Here is a shot of the lower part of one of my brackets from under the car. It looks like type 2 wood firewall bracket to me. You can see the holes in the bracket and frame line up pretty well. Don’t know why the bolts were not installed. For some reason the picture is sideways. I have posted a want to buy for a set of the correct ones in the classifieds.

Post by **TRDxB2** » Fri Oct 28, 2022 8:42 pm

What you should have and what you have are 2 different things. The firewall brackets depend on the firewall be wood or steel - & then year to be correct. It would hurt to take a picture of the firewall driver side. I wouldn't proceed to solve any issues until you bolt the brackets to the frame not have them could cause all kinds of unwanted movement while driving

Reno Speedster · Post by **Reno Speedster** » Fri Oct 28, 2022 8:45 pm

Winter has come to Alaska so it’s not getting driven till spring. I am looking for the correct ones and I will get it sorted out. I am also rebuilding the wheels over the winter.

Post by **TRDxB2** » Fri Oct 28, 2022 8:52 pm

Reno Speedster wrote: ↑
Fri Oct 28, 2022 8:45 pm
Winter has come to Alaska so it’s not getting driven till spring. I am looking for the correct ones and I will get it sorted out.

I see your already looking for type 3. type 4 will work an the earlier steel firewalls but 3 will not work on '26-27. the notch is needed to clear a support bead in the firewall

Reno Speedster · Post by **Reno Speedster** » Fri Oct 28, 2022 8:59 pm

It’s a 1922 car with a replacement steel firewall so the Type 3 should be correct.

Post by **kmatt2** » Sat Oct 29, 2022 12:21 am

You can use the wood firewall brackets with your low steel firewall by using upper radiator thimbles as a spacers. This is what people did back in the day when the wood firewall rotted out and they got a steel firewall for replacement. The 1926-27 firewall brackets will work ok to mount your low steel firewall but they will switch sides from 1926-27 mounting, and they do look different than the 1923-25 steel firewall bracket. When you get your steel firewall mounted properly your upper radiator support rod will be in the correct location and your radiator will fit after you get the correct 1917-23 hood tops or a complete 1917-23 hood. You may have to shim your front body to frame mounts due to a sagging frame. The pre 1926 cars have fixed body to frame mounting locations and the body doesn’t slide forward or aft at the body mounts.

Post by **kmatt2** » Sat Oct 29, 2022 12:22 am

1) Get your steel low firewall mounted in correct location using correct steel firewall brackets or use spacers on wood firewall brackets.
2) Check for a sagging frame and shim body mounts if needed.
3) Mount radiator and shell and radiator rod.
4) Check for fit using a correct 1917-23 hood.

Allan · Post by **Allan** » Sat Oct 29, 2022 3:13 am

While you might be able to fit low hood side panels to high hood top panels, there is no way the hood can get anywhere near fitting like this one does. The high radiator top panels will be wider at the front, and way wider at the rear. If these panels are bent to conform to a low firewall, the side hinge pin will be way low at the back, and the side panel will hit the hood shelf well before the top panel nestles on the firewall.

I do not believe the hood is in any way made of mixed parts.

Allan from down under.