Need Opinions

Post by **BLB27** » Mon Feb 20, 2023 8:31 pm

I am in the process of installing the front body brackets to the frame. As shown in the attached photos, the top holes in the body to not completely line up with top hole in the bracket. The bottom hole in the the body is slotted so the holes line up.

All of the eight bottom body to frame connections fit very well, including the front two (one on each side). These two do not have wood blocks, so they are metal to metal. They will separate if I raise the body.

I have no idea why those top holes do not line up. I could raise the body and place washers under the front bottom body to frame connections. However, I am leaning toward enlarging the holes because every thing else seems to fit so good.

What are your opinions?

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Mon Feb 20, 2023 8:51 pm

I have a 1927 roadster which has the same holes in the firewall as your coupe, and there is a hole in the frame rail on both sides that appears to be where brackets like yours could attach. It has no brackets on it, and it doesn't look like it ever did have. The holes show no evidence of having ever had bolts in them. If you do find it necessary to enlarge any holes, I suggest modifying the brackets, and not the body or the frame.

Scott_Conger · Post by **Scott_Conger** » Mon Feb 20, 2023 8:53 pm

I am guessing that you did not straighten your frame before painting

I would not cut, drill or modify anything as that is only fixing a symptom; I'd look for the problem and remedy it. I am also speculating that you're going to find out what body shims are for before it's all over.

As it sits right now, you may well have a heck of a time getting the body/hood/radiator shell to play together nicely. If that's the case, then you'll figure out exactly what to do to fix things and it won't involve modifying either the brackets or the body.

Also, Pat is correct: some late cars came without the brackets. However, if yours came with them, they came off and should be able to go back on which leads right back to my opening statement.

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Mon Feb 20, 2023 9:20 pm

The brackets may be necessary on a closed car. Many cars were assembled at the factory with washers placed as needed under some of the body mount points to align the various parts. I've seen a lot of 1950s/1960s cars that had 1/4 to 1/2" stacks of shim washers at a number of assembly points. As Scott pointed out, if the brackets came off this car, they should fit back on it without any modification to the body or the brackets.

Norman Kling · Post by **Norman Kling** » Mon Feb 20, 2023 9:22 pm

Put a shim, perhaps a piece of an old tire casing between the wood body block and the body. That should move the body up just enough to get the hole at the same level as the hole in the body. loosen the bolts holding the bracket to the frame so that the frame bracket can be moved to align the hole. Then tighten everything up. Now you might also need to shim up or lower the body at the doors to get the door aligned. Start in front and work back. You might also need to loosen one side of radiator to frame stud and tighten up the other side to get the hood to align between the radiator and the body. Your body is actually quite close to the correct position. If it is much farther off, you would need to straighten the frame.
Norm

Post by **JTT3** » Mon Feb 20, 2023 10:30 pm

I predict cracked body mount brackets in the near future. Scott knows what the issue is but if you must move forward some ideas have been stated that will help in the short run. A lot of weight is located at the pan ears and the body mounting brackets and there tends to be a sag in the frame in that area. You can repair that though with a little work. As stated you may find by not correcting the problem now you create further issues as other sheet metal is mounted including the radiator & hood alignment. Good luck in which way you decide to proceed. You’ve got a really nice cab it deserves to be on a straight frame. JMHO but what do I know. Best John

Post by **dinosbunny** » Mon Feb 20, 2023 10:44 pm

before you modify anything, make sure the hood fits properly then adjust the body/bracket to match the hood.

Post by **Craig Leach** » Tue Feb 21, 2023 12:16 am

Hi Bruce,
When it comes to model Ts expectations end up being resentments under construction! I have found that its best to not tighten anything
until they are all lined up. It looks like the holes may not line up with the bracket even if they are not bolted to the frame? that would
be odd. Try taking every thing loose and see if things can be lined up.
Craig.

Post by **Tom_Carnegie** » Tue Feb 21, 2023 12:20 am

I always leave the brackets off of 26-7 cars. They are not needed and tend to cause the firewall to crack, in time. Ford left them off toward the end of production. I know this to be a fact as I have seen (owned) bodies that were not drilled for the brackets.

Norman Kling · Post by **Norman Kling** » Tue Feb 21, 2023 1:06 am

Your largest gap is on the left or drivers side. The smallest gap is on the right side. This indicates to me that the problem has to do with the body mounting blocks. Some might need to have a bit shaved off the under side. The reason I say this is that when the frame sags it is usually on the right passenger's side. That is because both the torque of the engine and the pressure on the drive shaft when braking, are on the right side. But your body seems to lean toward the left. So if you loosen all the bolts and start in the front with getting everything aligned maybe a shim needed at the front bolt. Then align the others so that the doors line up and close properly starting from front and working back. You might need to shim at each bolt or shave a bit off the wood, but you can get it.
Norm

Post by **kmatt2** » Tue Feb 21, 2023 2:30 am

I once had a 1926 T roadster pickup that I built up from parts. The body came from a mine shaft in Nevada and the frame came from a salvage yard in California. Everything fit together, But , I started with a frame that was checked and made square and level. I don’t see the rear hood block mount in your picture, mount the hood shelf and the radiator shell and check the hood fit. The back top outside corner of the hood shelf should be at the bottom of the body. At this point you will have to shim the body and or adjust the body blocks to get proper fit at the hood and doors. Before you do more assembly make sure that splash aprons, fenders, and running boards fit. Remember that a 1926-27 T has the splash aprons bolted to the fender inner edge. Take you time and get the fit as good as you can now, over the years ahead as you drive your T the fit will change for the worse.

Post by **Jerry VanOoteghem** » Tue Feb 21, 2023 6:43 am

I'm not too convinced that this is caused by a sagged frame. The front body mount brackets are not far back from the firewall. In order for the holes to be that far off, the frame would have to be sagged a fairly large amount in a fairly short distance. I'd look closely at the body mount brackets for any bending or distortion.

Looking at just the one bracket, it appears to be bent upwards. A little harder to see on the other side. I think this may be the cause of your trouble.

: bracket.png (147.11 KiB) Viewed 5492 times

Scott_Conger · Post by **Scott_Conger** » Tue Feb 21, 2023 9:30 am

Good Eye, Jerry!

I missed that entirely. Both forward body brackets look significantly bent and am shocked at how puny/lightweight they appear.

For those that know these later cars, is that correct???

Those look like mere tabs sticking out with little heft to them relative to earlier cars. Most certainly modifying the front brackets now will lead to a cracked firewall shortly if that much weight is borne by them. Though I'm not a student of late model T's, I do know that firewall cracking can be a problem.

All of which goes back to my earlier point to solve the PROBLEM, not salve over a symptom

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Tue Feb 21, 2023 9:45 am

Fitting car bodies, fenders, panels, etc. has always been a challenge. It was a challenge at the factory, with crews, fixtures, and new parts on hand. The parts are not all exactly the same, and they never were.
It helps to have the car sitting on a perfectly FLAT floor with a matched set of tires with the same air pressure in all 4 of them. It also helps to have lubricated springs. You will find it necessary to make adjustments as the assembly proceeds. For most parts, final tightening will only happen after the entire body is assembled and adjusted. It is possible to overtighten parts.
Having the correct bolts, nuts, washers, etc,, is helpful. It would be very helpful to have assistance from someone with some experience assembling cars, especially if they have experience on Model Ts.

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Tue Feb 21, 2023 9:51 am

As for the braces, my (open) car doesn't have them, and the body and fenders are in good alignment, the doors fit and work properly, and the car is tight and rattle-free. The forward body mounts aren't very substantial looking, but they are free from any evidence of cracks or welds, and appear to be adequate for the job. The flexible chassis frame and lack of rubber cushions between the body and frame preclude mounting the body too rigidly to the frame.

John Codman · Post by **John Codman** » Tue Feb 21, 2023 10:19 am

My late '27 touring car has the brackets. What surprises me is that they are held on with hex nuts. Most of the nuts in this car (which has been repainted but not restored) are square. Does anyone here know for sure whether the nuts should be square?

Post by **JTT3** » Tue Feb 21, 2023 11:31 am

Jerry & Scott great eyes, never even noticed!

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Tue Feb 21, 2023 1:08 pm

1. Straighten body mounts if needed. 2. Loosen the other body bolts, but leave them in place. 3. Then put each of the top firewall bracket bolt in place but do not tighten them. 4. Then carefully raise the front of the body body until the bracket to frame bolts can be put in. It shouldn't take much. 5. Now let the body rest on the frame. At this point, the other two bracket bolts should go in the slotted holes in the firewall. Put them in, but leave all the bolts loose. 6. If any of the other body mounting points are now above the frame mounts, put washers under them to fill the gap working from rear to front. 7. With the body now resting on the frame at all mounting points, the doors should open and close without any binding. If they don't, you'll need to add or remove washers where needed to correct the alignment, or make adjustments at the hinges. You will likely need to go back over the adjustments as you more fully assemble the car in order to get the best alignment of all the various parts. It should not be necessary to drill holes out or otherwise alter parts.

Post by **BLB27** » Wed Mar 01, 2023 12:24 am

Here is a summary of what I have done and found with the body setting on the frame as shown in my earlier photos (bolts loose).

1) Both doors open and close fine.

2) After the frame was sandblasted, we made the diagonal measurements that were described in Fred Houston's "T" Tips video for the Model T Frame. The frame was square. We did not make measurements to determine if the frame rails were straight; that is, by installing a string line above the rails and measuring down to the rail. I may have "eye ball" along the top of each rail.

3) I have now made measurements to determine if the rails are straight. We did this by placing a 8' long level on the garage floor and took measurements from it to the top of both rails. The measurements were taken every 9", starting 3" from the front end of the rail. The total number of measurements on each rail was 11. The photos show this procedure.

4) I reproduced the measurements on a wall in my house and used a string line to determine if the frame rails are straight. Both of the rails are straight, no sag.

5) I placed a level on the garage floor, perpendicular to the frame, to determine if the rails were level. They are. This procedure will be shown in the next post.

6) I have checked the "fit" between the two front "body" brackets and the "frame" brackets. The one on driver side is tight. The one on the passenger side has a very small gap, maybe 1/32". The brackets are level. Photos of these will be shown in the next posts.

7) I have checked the "fit" between the "body blocks" and the "frame" at each of the two locations on each rail (with the bolts loose). Three are tight and one has a 1/16" gap.

8) Based on the above, I don't know why the holes in the body do not line up with the holes in vertical brackets.

9) Observations, comments and suggestions would be appreciated. After getting that input and input all ready received, I will decide how to proceed.

Note: I will make a couple more posts with photos, as I mentioned above. Therefore, I suggest no comments be made until those posts are made.

Allan · Post by **Allan** » Wed Mar 01, 2023 12:44 am

Two items are missing from this rebuild, the radiator and hood. Getting everything else sorted without any reference could be problematic. The advice to put everything together and tighten nothing is good advice, but add the radiator and hood to the mix. The radiator should be perpendicular to the frame rails. If it is, and the hood is a mis-fit, the body needs to be juggled to improve the fit. I know this adds to the work, but it may well lessen some heartache later on.

Allan from down under.

Post by **BLB27** » Wed Mar 01, 2023 1:21 am

First photo shows how I determined that the frame rails were straight.

Second photo shows the procedure to determine if the rails are level.

Third and fourth photos show the front "body" and "frame" brackets on the passenger side. The third is looking toward the front. The fourth is looking toward the rear and shows the very small gap.

The fifth photo shows the front "body" and "frame" brackets on the driver side, looking toward the front.

Note: Sorry for the bad orientation of three of the photos. The "machine" won't let me to it the right way!

Post by **BLB27** » Wed Mar 01, 2023 1:24 am

That was the last post.

Post by **TRDxB2** » Wed Mar 01, 2023 3:47 am

Have you tried removing the brackets from the frame just to see if the bracket holes line up with the firewall holes? Looking at this picture it looks the spacing isn't the same and if that's true then are these original or repro brackets ?.

Post by **Jerry VanOoteghem** » Thu Mar 02, 2023 10:57 am

At this point, I'd be inclined to either shim the body mounts or slot the holes in your firewall brackets, where they attach to the frame rails.

Scott_Conger · Post by **Scott_Conger** » Thu Mar 02, 2023 11:04 am

and I would pay attention to what Alan and others have said regarding fitting the radiator, radiator shell, and hood first before slotting, grinding, bolting or otherwise altering parts which came off the car originally.

if you simply "solve" the body bracket alignment problem by itself, with no consideration to the totality of the car, you will be back on the forum in 2 weeks asking why the hood fit is lousy

FWIW #1, I have a very hard time believing that the frame has no sag with the engine installed...even perfectly straight, repaired/restored frames (sitting on a dolly) will sag some when the engine is installed...not much, but some.

FWIW #2, I have never seen a concrete floor so perfectly flat and level that you could use it for a series of vertical measurements along a length and ever believe them. Weld up a heavy (inflexible) steel table say, for a surface plate, and try to find some spot on the floor where it will not rock (there won't be many places). It will need leveling feet.

South park zephyr · Post by **South park zephyr** » Thu Mar 02, 2023 11:15 am

Hello,
i have read thru this a couple of times and i am wondering about the fit before you took the car apart. I know this has been a long project, and without looking for prior posts,it would seem that would be the place to start questioning the fit.

Lil Teezy · Post by **Lil Teezy** » Thu Mar 02, 2023 11:53 am

Both the T roadster and the 29 CCPU (very similar cowl to the 27 coupe) I built recently needed persuasion to line up at the cowl. Any bumps, lumps, etc. earned in their past lives seem to show up across the firewall. I started with alignment drifts and longer all thread rod to get each spot settled, and checked out from a distance. Once it was good I put in the carriage bolts through the brackets and frame one at a time clamping where I could…
Seems to me like slotting the square holes in your firewall brackets would just give the body an inappropriate place to shift to. Took me a lot of shimming and experimenting (like, a lot, a lot!) with all of the body mounting bolts to get the pickup door frames right and the cowl to hood and the hood to radiator to line up nice. For me it’s a compromise because of the 32 grill shell, but after a year of driving it’s settled and needs adjusted anyway!
I’d get the radiator and hood in the mix like the others suggested and see where that puts the body. One would think that those frame to cowl brackets would be the jump off, but the cowls sheet metal may tear if you do those first then tweak the body around them. If they are the pieces that came off the car, we can sure see how much the metal body flexes and shifts with use and time. Have you had the doors back in? Could be informative… Chris, in Boulder

Lil Teezy · Post by **Lil Teezy** » Thu Mar 02, 2023 11:58 am

Whoops, looking at the long thread I see that the doors ARE in the body. Do they close and latch well already? Also forgot to say “Good Luck! -Chris

Post by **DanTreace** » Thu Mar 02, 2023 12:30 pm

Just another add to this very very long thread

Might try to remember how the dash to frame bracket was bolted, many of the Improved Cars I have redone only had one bolt in those frame to dash bracket. On assembly the dash bracket should fit well at the cowl holes, unless the bracket is twisted, most times a tapered punch can be used to lever up the bracket for alignment to the 2nd bolt, after the first is installed.

Then when fitted to the frame, just one bolt can be used, as getting two in sometimes can't be done, Ford did have a note in the late '24 Printed Ford Service book about this issues. One bolt at the frame is ok as the body is attached to the frame at other locations.

So you may want to try that method.

Post by **BLB27** » Thu Mar 02, 2023 10:29 pm

Scott,

In regard to your FWIW #1 in your 3-2-23 post: You said "I have a very hard time believing that the frame has no sag with the engine installed.....". I checked the measurements twice. I rechecked the points on the wall in my house. The string line shows that the left rail is straight. The right rail has a 1/8" sag over a distance of 50" (The 50" starts at 3" from the front of the rail.)

In regard to your FWIW#2 in your 3-2-23 post: You said "I have never seen a concrete floor so perfectly flat and level that you could use it for a series of vertical measurements along a length and ever believe them". I did not use the surface of the floor to make the vertical measurements. I said in my #3 item in my 3-1-23 post, "I have now made measurements to determine if the rails are straight. We did this by placing a 8' long level on the garage floor and took measurements from it to the top of both rails". The photos in that post show that procedure.

Post by **TRDxB2** » Fri Mar 03, 2023 12:51 am

Have you tried removing a bracket from the frame to see if it will line up with the firewall holes? That would eliminate any possibility of something else causing the issue. Then if they line up using just the one bolt to the frame as described above

Post by **BLB27** » Fri Mar 03, 2023 9:50 pm

Frank, I did what you suggested. I removed the bracket. The bolt holes in the bracket line up with the holes in the body.

Post by **BLB27** » Fri Mar 03, 2023 11:00 pm

I raised the body enough to get the bolts into the bracket (photos 1 and 2). This has required two washers on the left front frame support bracket (photos 3 and 4), and one washer on the adjacent body block (photo 5). In my next post, I will show how the body is setting now.

Post by **BLB27** » Fri Mar 03, 2023 11:25 pm

I have placed a level on the garage floor and measured from it to the bottom edge of the body on both sides. The body is now level as shown in the photos.

Allan · Post by **Allan** » Sat Mar 04, 2023 12:57 am

Bruce, once you get the body on, shimmed up with washers and bolted to the firewall brackets, what will you do to get a good hood fit? The only way that can be adjusted is by moving the firewall that is fixed to the body. On cars up to 1915, the hood former can be shifted around to achieve a better fit. You don't have that option. You will need to have both the radiator shell lacing and firewall lacing in place to get started.

Allan from down under.

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Sat Mar 04, 2023 8:23 am

Springs may not be perfectly on spec, and how evenly the spring to frame clamps are tightened can affect how the car sits. Original tolerances related to body fit and vehicle symmetry on some later model vehicles could be as much as 1/2 " or more.

Post by **Jerry VanOoteghem** » Sat Mar 04, 2023 11:06 am

Allan wrote: ↑
Sat Mar 04, 2023 12:57 am
Bruce, once you get the body on, shimmed up with washers and bolted to the firewall brackets, what will you do to get a good hood fit? The only way that can be adjusted is by moving the firewall that is fixed to the body.
Allan from down under.

The height of the radiator is adjustable, so it's not just the firewall. Who knows, maybe what he has done will actually help the hood alignment. Nobody knows until he fits the hood. Worst case, everything he did is reversable. Let's not predict failure just yet.

Allan · Post by **Allan** » Sun Mar 05, 2023 7:18 am

Jerry, you reinforced my concerns. The radiator and hood need to be part of the fit. There may be wasted effort getting the body sitting nicely for the firewall brackets to line up, only to find that it needs to be undone and re-jigged.

I have built three cars from the ground up. On these three, I started with the radiator and hood. My 1912 van was the easiest. The screw-on hood former was fitted to the flat firewall in the best position for the best hood fit. It just so happens to be 1/2" further to one side and a bit less than 1/4" higher than it would be if mounted symmetrically.

My 1915 tourer with the fitted former over the plywood firewall was trickier. It is held in position by the firewall brackets. On it, the hole in the former to take centre hood hinge rod was filled, and a new, bushed hole was created up a bit and to one side by 3/8" before the hood would fit nicely. If you know what to look for, this mod is visible, but has never been noticed.

My 1917 shooting brake had a different problem. Despite the frame being as straight as a die and perfectly square. Once the radiator was fitted, the fit of the hood needed to be addressed by fitting a 1/4" spacer between the firewall and one of the frame/firewall brackets to get an acceptable fit at the back of the hood on each side. Then the wooden body was custom built with the firewall in that position.

Bruce does not have these options with a factory steel framed coupe body. If he needs to make adjustments for the hood fit. Any adjustment to the hood fit requires shifting the body on its mountings, up or sideways. Without the radiator and hood in the mix, there is no guarantee that they will line up with the body.

There is some scope to adjust the hood fit at the radiator, if it requires lifting the radiator. Custom length studs and blocks can be used to raise it. However, there is little wriggle room to sit it lower, without the side panels impinging on the hood shelves. But you don't know this until it is fitted.

Pardon me for banging on about this, but now is the stage at which the best results can be achieved.

Allan from down under.

Post by **Jerry VanOoteghem** » Sun Mar 05, 2023 7:47 am

Allan wrote: ↑
Sun Mar 05, 2023 7:18 am
Jerry, you reinforced my concerns. The radiator and hood need to be part of the fit. There may be wasted effort getting the body sitting nicely for the firewall brackets to line up, only to find that it needs to be undone and re-jigged.

I have built three cars from the ground up. On these three, I started with the radiator and hood. My 1912 van was the easiest. The screw-on hood former was fitted to the flat firewall in the best position for the best hood fit. It just so happens to be 1/2" further to one side and a bit less than 1/4" higher than it would be if mounted symmetrically.

My 1915 tourer with the fitted former over the plywood firewall was trickier. It is held in position by the firewall brackets. On it, the hole in the former to take centre hood hinge rod was filled, and a new, bushed hole was created up a bit and to one side by 3/8" before the hood would fit nicely. If you know what to look for, this mod is visible, but has never been noticed.

My 1917 shooting brake had a different problem. Despite the frame being as straight as a die and perfectly square. Once the radiator was fitted, the fit of the hood needed to be addressed by fitting a 1/4" spacer between the firewall and one of the frame/firewall brackets to get an acceptable fit at the back of the hood on each side. Then the wooden body was custom built with the firewall in that position.

Bruce does not have these options with a factory steel framed coupe body. If he needs to make adjustments for the hood fit. Any adjustment to the hood fit requires shifting the body on its mountings, up or sideways. Without the radiator and hood in the mix, there is no guarantee that they will line up with the body.

There is some scope to adjust the hood fit at the radiator, if it requires lifting the radiator. Custom length studs and blocks can be used to raise it. However, there is little wriggle room to sit it lower, without the side panels impinging on the hood shelves. But you don't know this until it is fitted.

Pardon me for banging on about this, but now is the stage at which the best results can be achieved.

Allan from down under.

All he did was shim the body by something like 3/16". Easily undone in 10 minutes, if need be. I think it's all gonna' be okay.

Post by **BLB27** » Sun Mar 05, 2023 10:35 am

Jerry, That's the way I see it. I don't intend to tighten any of the body mounting bolts until the radiator and hood are put in place to see how things fit.

Bruce