Before I start my T

[Jacob Mangold]

I have been working to get my T running and now I think I’m down to the homestretch. I hope to start it this weekend. What are some things I should do before I initially start it as well as after I started it and while it’s running. I just want to know thing to look at beforehand and to look out for. Also, I hope to have a good magneto!

Thanks in advance,
Jacob Mangold

[John kuehn]

Make sure you have good gas flow, good spark ( make sure the spark is retarted ) and a good ground if you have a battery.
Basic carb setting would be 1 1/4 to 1/2 turns or pretty close to that.
Make sure you’re getting spark to all 4 coils. That’s the basic thing you need to have to start it in my opinion. Others will have their opinions too. Good luck! And after you start it and it warms up then you can finalize the Carb setting. All T’s aren’t exactly alike with the setting. Somewhere as stated above is where it should be.

[Steve Jelf]

If this is your first time starting a T, let Mitch Taylor show you how:
https://www.fordmodelt.net/videos.htm

And study this: https://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG101.html

[Jacob Mangold]

Thank you Steve. I know how dangerous it can be to crank it by hand especially when I have not checked the timing. I will be using the electric starter to aid me in cranking. I bought a rebuilt starter from langs so we will see how good it works.

Thanks, Jacob Mangold

[JTT3]

Jacob since you have a rebuilt starter be sure you have the correct size positive battery cable from the battery to the foot starter switch and from the foot starter switch to the starter post. In addition your weaved negative strap that goes to the negative post and then to the frame needs to have got contact to the frame. It is attached to the frame with a bolt & nut, you would be served well if you unbolted the strap from the frame and sand or wire brush to bright metal were it attaches to the frame so you have a strong electrical loop. Some folks including me run a wire from the negative post directly to one of the bolts that holds the starter to the hogshead to ensure a good ground to the starter. Just my opinion. If by some chance you do get the engine cranked & running make sure your amp gauge shows positve amperage as you increase the throttle, if it doesn’t stop the engine so you don’t burn the generator up. Then do a quick search on the internet on how to ground out a model T generator. Once’s that’s done you can run the engine without damaging the generators armature. Best of luck and keep us posted. Best John

[Humblej]

Jacob, you should check and set the timing before you try to start it, even if you plan to just use the electric starter.

[speedytinc]

Jacob, you should check and set the timing before you try to start it, even if you plan to just use the electric starter.

Exactly my words.
Set the crank pin @ 3:30/9:30. Full retard on the lever. Disconnect timer rod. Rotate timer CCW some. Turn ignition on.
Rotate timer CW until a coil fires. This is where the timer rod should be connected. Bend as required.
It only takes 1 advance start to damage a bendix/spring. Wouldnt that suck for your first start?

[Jacob Mangold]

Jacob since you have a rebuilt starter be sure you have the correct size positive battery cable from the battery to the foot starter switch and from the foot starter switch to the starter post. In addition your weaved negative strap that goes to the negative post and then to the frame needs to have got contact to the frame. It is attached to the frame with a bolt & nut, you would be served well if you unbolted the strap from the frame and sand or wire brush to bright metal were it attaches to the frame so you have a strong electrical loop. Some folks including me run a wire from the negative post directly to one of the bolts that holds the starter to the hogshead to ensure a good ground to the starter. Just my opinion. If by some chance you do get the engine cranked & running make sure your amp gauge shows positve amperage as you increase the throttle, if it doesn’t stop the engine so you don’t burn the generator up. Then do a quick search on the internet on how to ground out a model T generator. Once’s that’s done you can run the engine without damaging the generators armature. Best of luck and keep us posted. Best John

I am running 12 volts to the starter. The battery cables are the correct one however, I do not use the braided ground wire.

Thanks, Jacob Mangold

[TXGOAT2]

Using 12 volts to operate your starter will damage it, probably sooner than later. If you have a 6 volt generator, it will not charge a 12 volt battery. 6 volt lighting will not tolerate 12 volts. The stock Ford ignition system can operate on 12 volts, but it will work just as well on 6 volts, and it will work best when running on the magneto.

[Steve Jelf]

Here's a slightly more detailed description of setting the timing: https://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG97.html

[Jacob Mangold]

I kind of have and interesting set up. I have a 6v and a 12v battery. The 12v battery goes to the starter switch that powers the starter. It also has the lead on the the terminal on the switch that instead of going to the terminal block, it goes to a separate terminal block that powers the horn. The 6v battery does the rest. Basically, I have the 6v that has an 18 gauge wire that runs to the 3rd slot on the terminal block to power the lights and coil box when not running on magneto. Hopefully I explained that good enough. If not, I can provide pictures.

Thanks, Jacob Mangold

[speedytinc]

. If you have a 6 volt generator, it will not charge a 12 volt battery. 6 volt lighting will not tolerate 12 volts.

This is false.
A model T generator will charge a 12V battery. The cut out must be compatable as in 12v mechanical or a diode.
To preserve the life of the generator, set the output to 1/2 that of a 6v system, 3-4 amps max.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

I kind of have and interesting set up. I have a 6v and a 12v battery. The 12v battery goes to the starter switch that powers the starter. It also has the lead on the the terminal on the switch that instead of going to the terminal block, it goes to a separate terminal block that powers the horn. The 6v battery does the rest. Basically, I have the 6v that has an 18 gauge wire that runs to the 3rd slot on the terminal block to power the lights and coil box when not running on magneto. Hopefully I explained that good enough. If not, I can provide pictures.

Thanks, Jacob Mangold

Jacob,

You may discover that set-ups like this eventually become a source of trouble. If you insist on using 2 batteries however, I'd use the 6V for starting and the 12V for everything else. As it is, you're taking advantage of the worst of both worlds. That would be, 12V to ruin your rebuilt starter and 6V to run dimmer lights, underpowered coils and no modern accessories, if you're into those. Mind you, I am not at all advocating running anything on 12V.
Also, 18GA wire seems kinda light duty to me.

Best to you in your start-up! Keep us posted!

(And yes, check the timing before doing anything else! Backfiring on your starter can break things too!)

[Humblej]

Interesting set up?! Ye gads what a mess. 18 gage wire, 6v, 12v, mag...my head is about to explode.

[Jacob Mangold]

I might just convert it down to 6 volts and worry about the horn later. It should be pretty easy. It makes sense to do so anyways because the main reason it was converted to 12 volts was probably because the starter was about to die. i will be heading to advanced auto parts today to pick up an new diehard 6v.

Thanks, Jacob Mangold

[speedytinc]

Wise decision.
All that conversion stuff to keep a cheap 12v horn that will damage other expensive components didnt make sense.
Best to you & your T.

[TXGOAT2]

The T generator would need to run up 13-14 volts or more more to service a 12 volt battery, especially a 12 volt battery that is operating a 6 volt starter. A 6 volt starter will draw about twice the normal current when connected to a 12 volt battery, which is destructive to the starter, the starter drive, and the battery. The flywheel ring gear could be expected to wear faster than normal, and shed more metal particles than normal into the oil. Not good.
(Error/correction noted)
As noted above, maximum generator current output would need to be kept very low, 1/2 rated amp output, or less, to prevent destroying the generator. A Model T generator, being unregulated, can be hard on any battery under some conditions.

A rebuilt Model T starter will give good service when used with a good, full sized 6 volt battery, and a stock model T generator will give adequate service when adjusted properly.

The stock Model T ignition system in good condition will give excellent service and reliability when adjusted properly, and a Model T with a properly adjusted stock electrical and ignition system, including a working magneto, is extremely reliable and versatile.

A car so equipped can be started with the electric starter, or with the hand crank, or, under some conditions, simply by switching on the ignition. It can be started with a low battery, or a stone dead battery, or no battery at all, and it can be pushed or pulled or allowed to roll down hill to start it.

Try that with your Subaru.

[Jacob Mangold]

I have brand new coils and new coil box hardware so it should be good to go. The coils have always ran on the 6 volt so I know that won’t be an issue. Also, the 12 volt starter has already taken a bit of a toll on the flywheel. There were small chips on multiple of the teeth.

[speedytinc]

I have brand new coils and new coil box hardware so it should be good to go. The coils have always ran on the 6 volt so I know that won’t be an issue. Also, the 12 volt starter has already taken a bit of a toll on the flywheel. There were small chips on multiple of the teeth.

Typically a T wont run as well on 6V DC compared to on a strong mag's higher voltage.
Hopefully your mag is hot.

[John kuehn]

Jacob did you have access to the original wiring diagram? It’s pretty simple. Follow it and you can’t go wrong.

[Jacob Mangold]

Yes, I do have the wiring diagram. And yes, I really hope I have a good magneto.

[Jacob Mangold]

While working on it yesterday, getting it ready for the big start today, I accidentally snapped the magneto post off by the threads so I decided to just ultra black it in temporarily just so I can see if we get fire. I will have to order a new one and I don’t think it should be to hard to get the threads out because the metal seemed abnormally soft and I have an assortment of punches so we will see. Who knows, maybe it will run off mag because the post still makes contact with the point. Also, I shouldn’t really have to worry about that oil line because it is not high volume, right? Also, it’s not like system is pressurized so I should be good until I order a new one.

Thanks, Jacob Mangold

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

While working on it yesterday, getting it ready for the big start today, I accidentally snapped the magneto post off by the threads so I decided to just ultra black it in temporarily just so I can see if we get fire. I will have to order a new one and I don’t think it should be to hard to get the threads out because the metal seemed abnormally soft and I have an assortment of punches so we will see. Who knows, maybe it will run off mag because the post still makes contact with the point. Also, I shouldn’t really have to worry about that oil line because it is not high volume, right? Also, it’s not like system is pressurized so I should be good until I order a new one.

Thanks, Jacob Mangold

Are you saying you broke the oil line off of the mag post? If so, then yes, put some sealant on the oil outlet hole, otherwise you'll have a big mess.

[Jacob Mangold]

I broke the actual magneto post. The threads separated from the top bolt part of the magneto post. Keep in mind that my 24 has a late style 26-27 HH. I just put some ultra black on it so that it is somewhat seated. Good enough to get it started.

Thanks, Jacob Mangold

[Humblej]

Jacob, is this related to your posts in Feb that showed a 26-27 hogs head on a 1924 engine and transmission? You didn't change the hogs head out for an earlier one? You have some great expert advice here but you continue to reinvent the wheel. I strongly suggest swapping out the hogs head for your 24 engine and correct your wiring to the original configuration and voltage, and checking and setting your timing prior to starting your engine. Get it right first, then start it up.

[Jacob Mangold]

Something makes me think that the entire pan is the late style because it has 4 dips as well. I would have gotten a new hogs head but I am not sure where to get one. Also, I’ve spent a lot of money on other parts lately. I fixed all of the wiring and converted it back down to solely 6 volts. Also, the timing was already correct. The truck ran before it was stored for 25+ years.

Thanks for the advice, Jacob Mangold

[Humblej]

Jacob, ran when parked 25 years ago, that does not guarantee the timing is correct, and a 4-dip pan does not guarantee a 26-27 engine. Bottom line is your transmission is not a 26-27 but your hogs head is, that is a big problem that needs to be corrected. Used hogs heads can be had for $25, put an ad in the classifieds and you will be swamped with people happy to sell or give you one. To easily identify a 26-27 engine block look for the following:
1) 2 threaded bosses on the back of the block where the 26-27 hogs head ears bolt to.
2) A 26-27 serial number located above the water inlet on the left side of the block.12990077 or higher. Easy peasy.

If you have a 26-27 engine block, oil pan, and hogs head, then you have the wrong transmission. Either way, you need to take care of that prior to starting the engine.

[Jacob Mangold]

The block is definitely not a 26-27 block. It was actually manufactured in the second week of February, 1923 so it could be a replacement and it might not be a replacement. It’s too close to tell. No holes for bolts on the back of the block. I checked the timing using the method above. I was just saying that the timing was right because my t was running 25 years ago. I will look into getting the right HH for my transmission.

Thanks again for you advice, Jacob Mangold

[speedytinc]

If you have the late(wide) brake drum, you should have the late H/H for proper pedal/band/drum combination.
If you have the earlier narrow brake drum, then the 26/7 will put the petal/band alignment in the wrong place.

[Jacob Mangold]

Well this thread has gone completely off topic so I might as well finish it off. While testing the coils and verifying the timing and spark, it seems like only 1 coil is buzzing. I think the battery ran low and has no more juice because it cranked for a split second but then died. The coils buzzed for maybe 2 minutes after that before I put a 6v tender on it. Funny part about it is that yesterday when I was checking if each coil worked, they all did. Each plug got fire. Is this a common issue when battery’s run low? Should I install a main shutoff?

Thanks in advance,
Jacob Mangold

[Steve Jelf]

If the battery has enough juice to fire one coil, that should be enough to fire the rest of them in order. There are arguments for and against a cutoff switch, but it will have no effect either way on your problem of only one coil firing. If you haven't already, turn the key to BAT and turn the engine by hand. If only one coil buzzes, then you can investigate why the others don't.

[Jacob Mangold]

Here, I can explain it better. When I crank the engine over, coil number 2 appears to stay buzzing the whole time while the others look dead. It’s like all the timer wires are going to only the second coil terminal. I took off the timer and confirmed that my roller was still intact. What can cause this?

Thanks in advance,
Jacob Mangold

[Jacob Mangold]

Also, I may add that there was a slight amount of moisture inside the commutator.

[JTT3]

Jacob, first check the wires connected to the commutator to verify none are grounding to the block. If that’s good great, if your roller on the cam is worn significantly where the pin goes through it you may not be getting much contact causing the problem however one thing you could do is switch the other coils position to the number 2 slot, it’s known to work by your observation and see if the other 3 coils buzz in that position. You should know that just because a coil buzzes it doesn’t mean it is exciting the plug. You can verify that it is sending a charge by removing the plug and seeing if you see the plug firing. One other thing you might do is use a piece of emery cloth and clean the contacts on the upper & lower points. Some folks, I don’t, us a fine fingernail file but be cautious & not overly aggressive if you do. It doesn’t take much. It would be great if you had access to a coil tester, like a strobo spark or EECT. Even one of the homemade testers just to see if the coil is producing a spark that wil jump a 1/4 inch gap. Just some thoughts, I’m probably wrong. Good luck.

[speedytinc]

Thats a classic problem. #2 terminal is in a constant grounded state.
The engine pan bolt (front right) is too long coming into contact with #2 terminal which resides directly over that bolt.
You can turn the bolt around putting the nut on the bottom side.

[Jacob Mangold]

It probably is grounding to the block because it has a new set of coils, contacts, bolts, the three new wire harnesses, new roller and plate. I might look later today. I actually have a video of when I’m advancing the the spark, there being visible arcing around the comm.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

Jacob,

These are the potential problem areas that John is referring to, above. It's not an issue in this photo, but it can be a trouble spot when the timer is either advanced or retarded and the wire terminal touches either of the 2 bolts. Remember, the coils fire when any of these wires are shorted to ground. In fact, that's exactly what the timer does. It sequentially shorts each coil to ground at exactly the right moment, completing the circuit, and causing it to fire. However, when there's any other, (unwanted), short in the circuit, it will also cause a coil to fire, at the wrong time, or continuously. Firing at the wrong time causes broken starters, arms, and even crankshafts.

timer.png (288.39 KiB) Viewed 8303 times

[Jacob Mangold]

Well good thing I have not tried starting it. It's interesting though because on Sunday, each coil fired respectively.

[speedytinc]

You moved the timer retard to that perfect spot where its grounding.
Move more or less & the coil should stop buzzing.

[JTT3]

Jacob if by new plate you mean a brass plate that sits against the timing gear cover & supposedly captured by the commutator body. In my opinion it’s a flawed design, used to keep the felt oil seal secured, because it will wear consistently as you rotate the commutator back and forth causing the edge of the brass plate to be compromised and eventually wallowing inside the commutator, you may want to consider losing it. Perhaps they have redesigned it but my experience has been that they can cause trouble. Perhaps the ones I had used were not made correctly Or perhaps it was me installing it incorrectly. I would strongly consider a modern seal to prevent excess oil flowing into the commutator instead. Again I’m probably wrong but just my opinion. Good luck John

[Jacob Mangold]

Unfortunately the old shield was warped and wasn’t doing its job so I did have to replace it.

[JTT3]

Well here’s your sign, Again replace it with a modern seal and lose the brass plate. Just my opinion

[Steve Jelf]

I agree, ditch the brass plate and felt, and install the modern seal.
Use oil resistant sealant.
https://www.modeltford.com/item/3177OS.aspx

Continuous coil firing can be caused not only by a lower timer terminal touching a bolt, but also by an upper one touching the control rod. You have to turn the bolt around or correct the bend of the rod.

[Allan]

On a national tour once, one participant had stopped on the side of the road and had drawn a crowd of head scratchers by the time I arrived. The car was being hand cranked and each coil was buzzing as it should. Wrong! The buzz was not changing. It was the same coil doing the buzzing. I suggested the pull the timer, and they found the cam nut had loosened enough to let the roller pin out, and the roller was free to hang at the bottom, getting just enough inertia to make contact each time the car was cranked.

Same effect, different reason.
Allan from down under.

[Jacob Mangold]

I already took of the timer to confirm that the roller was still functioning right and the cam nut, pin, bolt, and roller were all there and functioning properly.

Thanks for the suggestion, Jacob Mangold

[Jacob Mangold]

Ok, I fixed the problem. The arm was making contact with the terminal so I rebent the arm and made sure the timing was correct. All seems well with the coil box except the fact that the coil for cylinder no. 3 seems to sound weaker but the plug still gets fire. Maybe it is not getting the best ground? I also packed the timer with high pressure grease.

Thanks for your help, Jacob Mangold

[speedytinc]

Ok, I fixed the problem. The arm was making contact with the terminal so I rebent the arm and made sure the timing was correct. All seems well with the coil box except the fact that the coil for cylinder no. 3 seems to sound weaker but the plug still gets fire. Maybe it is not getting the best ground? I also packed the timer with high pressure grease.

Thanks for your help, Jacob Mangold

You can switch coils around to test your theory.
Have your coils been tuned? No.
A well tuned coil has a distinctive, crisp snapping buzz.

[Humblej]

Jacob, the timer should not get packed with grease. Clean it out and put engine oil on the roller wheel and wipe oil on the inside of the timer where the wheel runs.

[Jacob Mangold]

They were brand new from snyders do they should be set to about 1.5 amps. I don’t see why snyders wouldn’t have them set correctly.

[Jacob Mangold]

Jacob, the timer should not get packed with grease. Clean it out and put engine oil on the roller wheel and wipe oil on the inside of the timer where the wheel runs.

https://modeltfordfix.com/repairing-a-m ... ler-timer/
I got that off of here, is that correct? I know that they used to say to pack it with Vaseline.

Thanks, Jacob Mangold

[Scott_Conger]

Jacob, you have found a reliable source/resource for good information on this subject. It is consistent with early FORD advise, though contrary to modern sensibilities and probably not even known by many folks who are used to different advice when cars are fitted with almost faultless camshaft seal.

Now that it is greased, I wouldn't go to any effort to change, and simply use as-is until or unless you have a good reason to change.

Good luck with your first start. You are doing an outstanding job of asking questions, taking advice, and prepping your truck...good for you.

[Steve Jelf]

I got that off of here, is that correct? I know that they used to say to pack it with Vaseline.

Royce is a very experienced Model T guy, and his advice on timers and their lubrication is sound.

[Jacob Mangold]

She’s a runner! Timing was the issue. Primed it real good and she started pretty quickly. Still have to find where it idles the best but it sounds like I’ve got a good motor. What a good birthday present!

Thank you guys for all the help and suggestions,
Jacob Mangold

[TXGOAT2]

A great outcome. Does it run on Magneto once started? /

[bdtutton]

Now that you have your car running, check all your cotter pins to make sure everything is being held in place before you start driving. Buy good stainless steel cotter pins. I know as soon as I got my car running I wanted to drive it. There are probably 40 cotter pins that are critical to your safety.
.
Good luck...

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

Jacob,

Awesome news! Very happy for you. Your patience and willingness to do things right have paid off!

[Jacob Mangold]

I haven’t tried it yet. Only tried to run it briefly because it was dry because my hose clamps aren’t really doing their jobs.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

I haven’t tried it yet. Only tried to run it briefly because it was dry because my hose clamps aren’t really doing their jobs.

Smear a little sealant on your fittings before sliding the hoses on. (But don't expect your hoses to then come off easily in the future)

[Jacob Mangold]

Ok, I will have to try that. Here is a video of it running.
https://photos.google.com/album/AF1QipP ... RhfBiBEIJz

[Moxie26]

Troy posting your video again, not available as is.

[Jacob Mangold]

Ok, I made a YouTube channel. Here’s the link to the video.
https://youtu.be/Jqa8hvAKCuE

[Scott_Conger]

Jacob

I am BEYOND IMPRESSED!!

Good for you!

Now, you really must put the correct hog's head on or you really will risk tearing up bands when you start driving and braking...and depositing the debris into the oil funnel...and if that happens, that nice sounding engine will suffer.

[Jacob Mangold]

Yep, I’m going to post an ad in classifieds soon. I want to find one in town so I don’t have to pay for shipping on a 50 lbs piece of cast iron.

[Humblej]

Congratulations! An important milestone!

[Jacob Mangold]

I just want to thank everyone that gave me advice on this engine. I wouldn’t have been able to do it without you guys.

[DaveBarker]

Great to see that you got her started and running! You've got a lifetime of enjoyment with the truck to look forward to!
Just a quick note; I noticed in your video the fan belt looked like it was slipping a bit and probably needs a small adjustment.

Congratulations! I'll be looking forward to future postings on your progress.

[JTT3]

Jacob, does my heart good to see you making such great progress. Now for me being selfish, get some of your friends involved that are sort of like minded. Make it sort of a community project. Then you can look for another T waiting to be revived perhaps by one of your friends that may help you with your TT. There is a T waiting in a barn for y’all to rescue it and give it a good home & a new life. Once you’re up an running.
Best John
PS check your grease cup on the fan assembly to make sure you’ve got some fresh grease going into the bushing in the fan pulley.

[Jacob Mangold]

Jacob, does my heart good to see you making such great progress. Now for me being selfish, get some of your friends involved that are sort of like minded. Make it sort of a community project. Then you can look for another T waiting to be revived perhaps by one of your friends that may help you with your TT. There is a T waiting in a barn for y’all to rescue it and give it a good home & a new life. Once you’re up an running.
Best John
PS check your grease cup on the fan assembly to make sure you’ve got some fresh grease going into the bushing in the fan pulley.

I would love to find a model t that needs a lot of love but right now, I have enough cars in the family I need to get running. Not saying it won’t ever happen but I have another TT and an A that I need to restore. And that is just for ts and as.

[Stephen E. Jackson]

I agree, ditch the brass plate and felt, and install the modern seal.
Use oil resistant sealant.
https://www.modeltford.com/item/3177OS.aspx

Continuous coil firing can be caused not only by a lower timer terminal touching a bolt, but also by an upper one touching the control rod. You have to turn the bolt around or correct the bend of the rod.

Thank you for your reply. I have a similar problem.