Would like Fire Professionals' advice on car fire extinguisher

[Scott_Conger]

I have just finished updating my cabin, shop, and property with a number of 20# ABC fire extinguishers and fire suppression equipment for grass fires, and am finishing up the job with my Ts since 2 of 4 cheapy extinguisher have lost pressure and they all need to be replaced with something

Having seen first hand the damage that traditional inexpensive fire extinguishers do after their use on car fires and the awful clean up of corrosive chemicals that can ensue, I have been looking at a 5# Halotron extinguisher for each car. I'm soliciting advice and opinion regarding that choice.

Thank you

[DanTreace]

Well, no expert here …

But reviews are good on what I carry on tour, the little Element stick. Magnet mount behind my seat back in the 27 touring, easy reach and grab. Strike it like a flare to operate, no residue but smothers fires. Last 50 seconds, way longer than a 2lb typical unit. I fired off some out of date 2lb cylinders and was surprised they exhausted in a very short 10 seconds.

The Element E50 is pricey , but so is a Model T !

[DHort]

I am not sure how good these are. They have a high rating on Amazon, so I have one in each of my T's.
A video is included.

[Joe Reid]

Gasoline and electrical are your culprits, fires are extinguished by removing oxygen, that will involve chemicals. Dan’s fire stick looks pretty good.

[Craig Leach]

Fire requires oxygen, fuel & heat. Remove anyone and the fire goes out. Halon is a exellant choice ( pricey as all get out) but very effective
at removing oxygen. It is suitable for A, B & C fires. Dry cemical extinguishers are also. Yes they make a mess but the powder residue helps to
retard reignition. Halon will get into places that Dry Cem. May not like a fire under a hood that is to hot to open. Through the radiator or the
hood vents for instance better than Dry Cem. will. The Element looks like a compact unit & seems to work well. I would like to point out that
because of the relative low pressure of the retardant stream. It will require you to get much closer to the fire to be effective. It also will be
unfamiliar to many people if you are in a situation that requires someone else to put out a fire. I only recomend you have something to put
out a fire in your T or anyother car you drive! And know how to use it! Something to think about with any Dry Cem. fire extinguisher no matter
were it is home, car and especialy in your T is that they are filled with a power that will pack down over time ( especialy in a rough riding
vibrating model T ) every now & then take it out check the pressure and turn it up side down from how its mounted and tap it firmly with
a RUBBER hammer to loosen the compacted powder so you dont have a solid mass of powder that may resist coming out the nozzle.
I have found there are a few things in life that when you really need one and don't have one you will likely never need one again. A
tourniquet, a parachute, a fire extinguisher and a firearm are at the top of the list.
Craig

[TWrenn]

Only thing about Halon is I would think that since most fires on a T would be under the hood, unless it's a "fixed system" Halon wouldn't be that effective, as I do believe they're mostly designed for "enclosed spaces"...too much available oxygen in a Model T engine compartment and once you open the hood to set of a Halon extinguisher you might as well be peeing into the wind. Just my 2 cents.

[Mark Nunn]

Thank you, Scott, for highlighting the need for good fire suppression equipment. I keep fire extinguishers in my home, shop, RV and Model T. I will be watching this thread to see what works for everyone. A few weeks ago a friend of mine lost his entire home in a massive fire. He lost two Model A’s and a large collection of Cushman scooters too. His other cars, including a Model T fire truck, were in a separate shed and unharmed. The irony does not escape me.

The battery was low on one of his Model A’s and he was hooking up a charger. He was unaware that the carb had leaked a bit of gas onto a sheet of cardboard laid under the engine. A spark ignited the soaked cardboard. His fire extinguisher was nearby but insufficient to put out the fire. I, too, had a sheet of cardboard under my T’s engine to collect oil drips. Has gas ever dripped on it? I don’t know but the cardboard is gone now. I will clean oil drips on the floor from now on.

[Scott_Conger]

FWIW - I did not misspell Halotron. It's Halotron, not Halon. Still very expensive.

Independent videos of the stuff are beyond impressive.

As a kid, my dad and I were coming home from a car show with the T on the trailer...we passed a guy in a new cadillac who's engine was smoking. I reminded my dad that we had a new fire extinguisher and should stop. I was horrified to find that while we got back there in plenty of time, the small extinguisher we had was all but useless as is expelled retardant for a grand total of about 5 seconds. Much of the powder remained in the canister and could be shaken out with effort. The fire was still small and the whole thing should have been able to be brought under control, but eventually the entire car erupted...that took about 10 minutes. We worked to put it out for 1/2 minute and stood around for 9 1/2 more watching helplessly. We learned then and there that small extinguishers were worse than useless as they gave a sense of security all the while in fact, providing ZERO security.

I appreciate the feedback and look forward to more.

[TWrenn]

Ahhh, thanks Scott. My bad! I often "misread" stuff! Not the first, probly not the last time that'll happen!!

[Scott_Conger]

No worries, Tim

I only clarified because Halon is listed as an ODC, Ozone Depleting Chemical, which has been banned for new manufacture...all existing extinguishers are using recaptured Halon, at an extraordinary expense. While it takes more Halotron to do what Halon does, it works at a much greater distance than CO2 (which many people use instead of Halon), and like CO2, leaves no residue. The main difference I see is that CO2 is pretty much limited to Class B fires and Halotron is good for B & C for sure and some places also say A. This is why I'm so very interested in (potentially) using this material for my cars.

[DHort]

Mark

I have cardboard under my cars. On top of that I have an appliance tray filled with oil dry. I believe any gas that does drop on the oil dry will be absorbed and then slowly evaporates. Should be less likely to burn that way. Correct me if I am wrong. I feel for your friend. Fires can start anywhere.

[TFan]

Here is my take on it. I have always carried an extinguisher in my vehicles but never needed one, but I have saved at least 3 or 4 other cars at shows where the owners put a lot of money into restoring their cars but did not think about fire protection. Sad part about this, not one of them offered to replace my equipment. So whatever you choose be prepared to use it for someone else. Jim

HELLON

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[SurfCityGene]

Scott, Glad you opted for the 20 #ers! You are a long ways from a fire station there! I know you value fire prevention a lot more than most.
The BEST extinguisher for a vehicle is the Amerex 5lb ABC Dry Chemical 402 AND it has a HOSE!!! This really is important. When buying a fire extinguisher always look at the UL rating listed on the tag. It tells how much fire can be extinguished by a professional in a test environment and also which types of fire it can be used on! It's not some companies advertising pitch. This B402 has a rating of 3A: 40B:C which is very high for a 5lb extinguisher and will discharge for 15 seconds! Cost should be around $75. if you shop. These will basically last a life time for HOME use if cared for. Use a vehicle bracket to prevent damage and Yes, shake upside down or sit inverted next to the car the night before you take off.

Our cars are not sensitive electronics and can be washed off after you put the fire out. The Halotron is a type Halon and a Ozone hazard just like the Halons. It is much less effective putting fire out than Halon 1211 is and probably cost about the same now.

I know most guy have a little 2 1/2lb extinguisher that might last up to 5 Seconds if your lucky. Since it probably wasn't your lucky day when you Need to use it and has only a 1A: 10B: C rating! Don't get me Wrong!! You can put out a Lot of Fire with this little extinguisher Sometimes!! They are nice and small so they fit a car easily. Unfortunately it will probably run out before you get all the fire out since most drivers are not experienced or the fire builds too quickly.

During my career I've put out many thousands of fires, most of them I started, I've spent a lot time as fire fighting instructor with the Navy and also with a private fire department. I was able to set up training situations for the fire teams using portable extinguishers of all types and demonstrate what happens when things go wrong if not properly used. At the end of a session I would have the people use the little 2 1/2 ABC in some pretty big fires just to show them actually how much fire could be put out if your Lucky. Some times it was amazing how well they work!

If you'd like personal advice please contact me off line... Sorry this could go on at length Do Buy the one with the biggest rating! Don't forget about WATER!! Best extinguishing agent bar none. Absorbs heat

[Scott_Conger]

Thank you Gene!

I have 2 AMEREX 10-A:120-B:C 20 lbs. ABC Dry Chemical Fire Extinguishers with one stationed at each end of the shop and 2 Kidde Pro 460 4-A:60-B:C 10 lbs. Fire Extinguishers one on each floor of the cabin, with another small one next to the fireplace. I wanted something that would work and still be light enough for my wife to handle in the cabin...the ones in the shop are beasts but the extra "oomph" they should be able to supply is a blessing.

All have hoses. With the river out back and my reservoir out front along with portable firefighting pumps I hope to keep any grass fires at bay or at least slow them down. As far as grass fires, they tend to give more warning than a shop or house fire and my plan is to simply be defensive and keep it at as much of a distance as it takes. We actually DO have a well equipped volunteer fire dept about 3 miles away and we have a 10,000 gallon submerged water tank about 1 mile away to resupply a tank truck.

Your input regarding T extinguishers is most appreciated and highly valued. Thank you SO much!

The genesis of this is that some locals got together with a group that responds to national emergencies and they gave a very instructive talk on preparedness across a broad range of subjects that allowed me to come away with a list of shortcomings we had here personally. Funny thing is: they never discussed fire extinguishers and the absence of that subject is what put me into overdrive.

Stay well and tell your brother I said "hello"

[ModelTWoods]

Its been 40 years since I left the fire service, but Halon has been around that long. I don't know how long Halotron has been around, but an internet search I just did, said that Halotron depletes the ozone in the atmosphere more than Halon. As with most chemicals, your damned if you do; and damned if you don't. Its your choice. They both do the same job, but have different chemical composition and propellants.

[Scott_Conger]

That's interesting, as every search I did said that Halotron was extremely safe for the Ozone.

Low ODP and Low GWP
Halotron® I has very low ozone depletion potential (ODP) of 0.0098, as well as a low global warming potential (GWP) of 77 (based on HCFC-123). It has a relatively high boiling point of 80.6°F (27°C).

Overall, when combined with its efficiency, Halotron I has the most well balanced environmental profile of any clean fire extinguishing agent.

This product is not regulated as a pollutant and is not listed in the Clean Air Act, Section 112 Hazardous Air Pollutants (HAPs) (see 40 CFR 61) and Section 112 of the Clean Air Act Amendments of 1990 (Destroys ozone in the upper atmosphere).

and finally...

Halotron I is a clean, gaseous, non conductive and non corrosive extinguishing agent that does not leave any residue after use. This extinguishing agent was created to replace the Halon 1211 agent, which was environmentally harmful. Halotron I has a low ozone depletion potential and a low greenhouse warming potential.

now, to the above, what does Section 112 of the Clean Air Act say?

Under the Clean Air Act Amendments of 1990, EPA is required to regulate large or "major"industrial facilities that emit one or more of 188 listed hazardous air pollutants (air toxics).

and also:

In 1990, Congress amended the Clean Air Act with Title VI, with provisions for protecting the ozone layer.

Halotron does not fall into this regulation.

these quotes are from product literature and their MSDS which must be filed with the Feds, as well as quotes from the Clean Air Act of 1990.

[ModelTWoods]

Scott, you're probably right, however I don't think I misread what I did, however, rather than search for the info that I thought I read, I'll agree with you. It ain't worth my time and effort to try to verify what I read. I do know from my fire fighting days, that Halon is good stuff that doesn't create a mess at putting out gasoline or electrical fires. If and when I need to buy a fire extinguisher, I'll search again and I'll pick the one that is best for the environment.

[Scott_Conger]

Terry, if you can stand a little teasing, my plan is to chose a fire extinguisher that is best at putting fires out! (and not hurting the environment is a positive side benefit!)

Your concerns sent me back to the MSDS/SDS and it looks like traditional dry chemical agents are pretty much innocuous, while the Halitron is hard on trout, water fleas and green algae and is not to be dispensed onto/into ground water, so I'd think your choice would or might be driven by that. I think my outlook is that I am unlikely going to go after ground water with it, and since it flashes into a gas (leaving no residue) that honestly is a strong plus for me (it is a darn shame that Halon turned out to be an ODC and has been banned from new production - that stuff was fantastic for what it was designed to do as a fire extinguishant).

BTW - I appreciate EVERYONE's input...this is quite a learning experience and is (I feel) more important than most people give thought to it. I was in that vast majority until I saw just how impotent a small extinguisher actually was under real life use. Additionally, an awful lot of videos must be well rehearsed shots performed under ideal circumstances and do not comport with my limited real-life experience (which was a total failure).

[TRDxB2]

Couple of videos for the stick fire extinguishers two brands E element Fire Extinguisher (50 &100 second options) & Fire Strycker

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdWZmsRwQ94
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIXULks_cos