Free Start - Interesting what I discovered

Rata Road · Post by **Rata Road** » Tue Oct 10, 2023 5:14 pm

I have a 23 depot hack with worn motor that drives fine.
It often free starts especially if its parked up for a few months, fuel on, 3 primer 1/4 turns, turn key and it free starts 70% of the time.

I also had another T with the same running gear. This engine was rebuilt when I got it and is tighter. However this engine never free started no matter how I tried.
Both cars running standard coils and NH Holley.

Interesting bit - I swapped the engine/trans over from each car. To make it simple I refitted the same carburetor and coils to each car that was already on it (So the coils and carby stayed with the car not the motor).

Now my Depot Hack still free starts, even with the tighter motor, and the other car still wont.

My conclusion - the Carby (and perhaps the coils) are the key to getting consistent free starts.

Post by **Humblej** » Tue Oct 10, 2023 5:23 pm

Kevin,
A free start is after a car has been sitting and you turn the key and it starts. If you are hand cranking and priming prior to turning the key it is not a free start.

Kerry · Post by **Kerry** » Tue Oct 10, 2023 5:52 pm

If you aren't a swinging on the crank handle or pushing the stater button and it fires up on turning the key, then in my book it's a free start. Priming or not.

Post by **fordt** » Tue Oct 10, 2023 6:08 pm

I concur, no crank with switch on, no starter turn….free start!

Post by **Rich Eagle** » Tue Oct 10, 2023 6:16 pm

My free starts are only on engines with a lot of miles and turn freely. They have newer rings and fair compression. My rebuilds won't do that.

ThreePedalTapDancer · Post by **ThreePedalTapDancer** » Tue Oct 10, 2023 6:24 pm

I once had my 14 free start on its own in my garage while I was inside taking a break from tinkering with it. Sloppy switch I guess. Or my late father playing games with me.

Post by **Pat Branigan Wisc** » Tue Oct 10, 2023 6:39 pm

Did you switch the batteries? I've had batteries that will buzz but not start the motor.

Post by **JTT3** » Tue Oct 10, 2023 6:52 pm

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Post by **Gen3AntiqueAuto** » Tue Oct 10, 2023 6:57 pm

This is a "free start" video! Brand new engine, 2nd time firing it up. Does not have a starter and no one touched the crank.

https://youtu.be/1HZkeIcxCrU

Post by **Gen3AntiqueAuto** » Tue Oct 10, 2023 7:00 pm

and here is another one - the engines I build will do this (provided the coils stayed) regularly. This is the one I learned the lesson "only crank with the key off" when it threw me to the floor and my face bounced off the brand new brass radiator. Luckily I didn't dent it.

https://youtu.be/eKMI_nWiZ2k

Post by **MarkS** » Tue Oct 10, 2023 8:48 pm

After rebuilding my motor / carb /coils last year on my ‘15 no starter car, I routinely get free starts after a drive and the engine is warm. Recently, shortly after pulling into my garage I got a free start, turned the motor off again, then again got another free start. Intrigued, I continued and got 13 free starts in a row! Not sure what happened on try 14, but I can’t complain!

Post by **John kuehn** » Tue Oct 10, 2023 9:11 pm

I have a 24 Coupe and a 21 Touring that usually get free starts after a drive or with a warmed engine. Not all the time but it happens. I never thought much of it until I started regularly looking at the forum several years ago. Wasn’t this mentioned in one of the T owners manuals or one of Floyd Clymers books about a Model T? Seems like I read it some where years ago.

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Tue Oct 10, 2023 9:12 pm

A tight engine may resist "free starts". Drag in the transmission or clutch will make free starts more difficult. Beyond that, a high lift cam may make free starts less likely. Cold, thick oil will interfere. The T engine will often start simply by turning the switch to BAT, if the ignition is in good shape, the mixture in the cylinders is correct, and the timing is set to the best advantage. My car will usually free start if it has been running in the last hour or two, and if, when I shut the engine off, I richen the carb mixture some before switching off. I then retard the spark, open the throttle slightly, and switch to BAT. The engine will usually start instantly, unless someone is watching and I say, "Watch this." My car has a high lift cam. I think it would free start more often if it had a stock cam.

Rata Road · Post by **Rata Road** » Wed Oct 11, 2023 12:21 am

I dont agree with some of the replies.
Once this car was parked for 8 months (I always turn fuel off and run carb empty until it stalls) and it free started after I primed it and then key on.
I dont believe a car parked for a long period will free start just by turning the key to Batt. There will be no fuel in the cylinders at all.
As far as I'm concerned if I prime the fuel up then lean in the car and turn the key to batt and it starts thats a free start. No cranking with key on or starter used equals free start in my book.

Besides all that the point of the post was to highlight I found the carb and the coils was the contributor.

Rata Road · Post by **Rata Road** » Wed Oct 11, 2023 12:23 am

No I didn't switch the batteries over, both cars are 6v and in good condition and always parked up with a maintainer connected.

Post by **TWrenn** » Wed Oct 11, 2023 9:30 am

I dont believe a car parked for a long period will free start just by turning the key to Batt. There will be no fuel in the cylinders at all.

Actually Kevin yes it can! I ALWAYS hit the key to battery BEFORE doing ANYTHING to my '13 engine to start it up. First of all, it ALWAYS gives "one grunt" no matter what! But last year, one day during a very warm week after not driving her for over a week, I went to start her up with that usual procedure and WHAM...she (Clara) free started right then and there! I didn't do one thing to it other than my usual procedure to flip the switch to battery first "just to see".

One thing these cars will always do, is surprise us! And sometimes dissapoint us!

Post by **Oldav8tor** » Wed Oct 11, 2023 9:37 am

Never had a free start...never. My coils are tuned, 12 volt battery, high compression Z head, Holley NH, 9300 miles since engine overhaul.

Been Here Before · Post by **Been Here Before** » Wed Oct 11, 2023 9:56 am

So, is a back-fire from the exhaust the opposite of a free start?

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Wed Oct 11, 2023 9:57 am

Mine does it often as not unless it has sat overnight. Once in a while, it will free start after sitting overnight.

Post by **TWrenn** » Wed Oct 11, 2023 10:09 am

Oldav8tor wrote: ↑
Wed Oct 11, 2023 9:37 am
Never had a free start...never. My coils are tuned, 12 volt battery, high compression Z head, Holley NH, 9300 miles since engine overhaul.

Hey Tim!
Here's another "oddity" of model Ts!
On my '25/'26 overlap Fordor, I been having issues with the original key switch first, put in a repop which was/is WORSE, so long story short, after opening up the original switch and cleaning contacts, making sure the connections are good, etc. and put it back into the car, it suddenly gave me free start after free start after free start straight off an ice cold engine! The repop NEVER did!

So go figure that one!!

Norman Kling · Post by **Norman Kling** » Wed Oct 11, 2023 10:35 am

Only time I get free starts: 1 When I stop for gas, sometimes I turn on the switch to battery and it free starts.
2. When someone asks me to demonstrate a crank start and all I seem to get are free starts, or it won't start with the crank!
Anyway, I don't know of anyone who gets free starts when they use magneto only.
The engine has to have stopped right at the correct position to make the spark happen which is unusual because it usually stops before it comes up on compression. And there must be some unburnt fuel in the cylinder.
Norm

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Wed Oct 11, 2023 11:21 am

Maybe instead of “free start” it should be referred to as Ford Motor Co. did, “starting on the spark.” I’ve had motors that did, and others that didn’t, sometimes for no apparent reason. I agree, a tight engine may not work. On our Model B (1905), it started on the spark every time, but didn’t have much top end. We found the valve timing was off one notch. Now it runs up to speed, but no more easy free starts. However, with a few turns of the motor (priming) it “starts on the spark” almost every time.

1907 Ford “K” operators manual:

Post by **John kuehn** » Wed Oct 11, 2023 1:37 pm

Thanks Rob for the information about starting on the spark or as it’s come to be known today as a free start!
I’ve been around and own Model T’s at least 50 years. My 24 Coupe will occasionally start with a warm engine as my other 2 cars will when turning the key to battery and starting

I never heard the free start term until reading about it on this forum a few years ago.

I seem to remember reading about the engine starting just by turning the key on in a Model T book or manual several years ago. I wonder if it was ever mentioned in a Model T owners manual or official publication from Ford about Model T’s. Maybe somebody can point it out where it was used.

In some earlier forum posts over 15 years old the term free start wasn’t used but the compression start term was what the people used was fairy common.

Post by **Rich Eagle** » Wed Oct 11, 2023 2:00 pm

I remember hearing about an old Stutz firetruck that they started by turning on the switch. They turned the engine to the right spot with the key off first. I don't know if they had to prime if or not.
I thought I'd mention that I turn the key on with the spark down and then move the spark up to get most free starts. This allows it to start even if the engine is ready before the spark is fully retarded. Not all engines stop just past top dead center. That's one requirement for a free start.
Rich

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Wed Oct 11, 2023 3:31 pm

Rich, sometimes I take it another step, and slowly retard the spark until the engine pops, immediately advancing the lever. If I catch it right, i get a good start on spark, and the advance helps it keep running. My former K touring was great at free starts, especially with a warm engine. The K roadster has a fresh rebuild and while it will “pop,” starts on spark are not as frequent. I think it’s just still too tight.

Here’s a time when we had 10 “starts on the spark.” Not sure if they qualify as “free starts.” I’m not doing anything except turning on the switch, but the engine was warm.

Not a T but it is a Ford……

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xd8odrb8ybb67 ... s.mov?dl=0

Rata Road · Post by **Rata Road** » Wed Oct 11, 2023 3:50 pm

oldav8tor - I have the same issue as you. Another of my T's (27 Coupe) with a Z head has never hinted at a free start.
The compressions are around 85psi plus still has the original vaporizer.

Looking forward to the arrival of my newest purchase (sight unseen) in a few weeks to see how that behaves.

[attachment=0]2073740538.jpg[/attachment]

Post by **NealW** » Wed Oct 11, 2023 5:02 pm

I start our T's on the magneto setting, and I NEVER get a free start!

Post by **George House** » Wed Oct 11, 2023 6:32 pm

Pretty rare ‘13 runabout w/ mother in law seat Kevin. And, have you figured out why you “never get a free start on magneto” Neal ?

Wayne Sheldon · Post by **Wayne Sheldon** » Wed Oct 11, 2023 7:59 pm

Given some of the brickbatting above, I wasn't sure I wanted to leave any comments here. But, what the hey.

The term and discussions about "free starts" and any of several other names ("start on the compression" was the one I learned over fifty years ago) and legends behind it has been around for a very long time.

At a club outing a long time ago, a bunch of us were standing around talking about them, and one fellow bragged how his T often gave "free starts" even on the magneto! Those of us that knew better, pressed on with questions. In fact, it turned out that he only got them when switched to the "magneto" position. In further fact, his switch was wired backwards! For the few years he had been driving this particular T, he was starting in the "BAT" position, actually hand cranking and starting on the magneto, then switching to the "MAG" position and running on the battery.
At least his mag and coils were in good shape!

Hey Rata/RR/Kevin, Nice looking new toy there! Is that a "mother-in-law" seat I see on the back?

Rata Road · Post by **Rata Road** » Thu Oct 12, 2023 1:15 am

Yes Wayne thats a mother in law seat.
Havent seen it in person yet, waiting on a transporter that wont unload it on the way. Plenty are keen but they unload the vehicles at each main city to rearrange their loads. I'm not having that.
[attachment=0]1914 9.jpg[/attachment]

bobt · Post by **bobt** » Thu Oct 12, 2023 5:18 am

YES, Norman! my 1915 hates a crowd. The more people waiting to watch me hand crank, the more free starts it will do. My car runs very well and will start at home, by myself,on the second or third crank but most of the time with an audience, it will make me crank until I work up a good sweat. bobt

John Codman · Post by **John Codman** » Thu Oct 12, 2023 10:00 am

In the original post I don't see where he said that he hand cranked the engine before the free start. I also don't see any "primer" on my NH-equipped '27. It has a mixture knob and rod; the same rod can be pulled to close the choke, but I cannot find anything that could be called a primer. On a T a primer would have to involve a pump, and there is no pump in my NH.

Post by **George House** » Thu Oct 12, 2023 10:34 am

John,
First paragraph, second sentence: “3 primer, 1/4 turn. Turn the key on and it starts 70% of the time”. By “primer” he wasn’t speaking of any kind of paint or fuel pump. Model T people would read this as pulling on the looped wire leading to the carburetor choke butterfly while cranking the engine 3 times from the 9 o’clock crank aspect to 12 o’clock.

John Codman · Post by **John Codman** » Thu Oct 12, 2023 12:36 pm

George House wrote: ↑
Thu Oct 12, 2023 10:34 am
John,
First paragraph, second sentence: “3 primer, 1/4 turn. Turn the key on and it starts 70% of the time”. By “primer” he wasn’t speaking of any kind of paint or fuel pump. Model T people would read this as pulling on the looped wire leading to the carburetor choke butterfly while cranking the engine 3 times from the 9 o’clock crank aspect to 12 o’clock.

I just learned something new. I also will agree that if the OP turned the engine either with the starter or the hand crank that it isn't a free start. It would never have occurred to me that closing the choke would be called priming. I have been around carbureted cars pretty much all of my life, and I have never even once (except from Model T people) call closing the choke anything but choking.

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Thu Oct 12, 2023 12:59 pm

A free starts occurs when you turn the ignition key to BAT and the engine starts and runs. (If it occurs at all)
Always set the parking brake before trying to start the car by any method.
A T will not free start on MAG.
A free start does not involve any activity other than setting the parking brake, opening the throttle a little, setting the spark for starting, and turning the key to BAT.

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Thu Oct 12, 2023 1:02 pm

I get more free starts if, before shutting the engine off, I richen the mixture a little at fast idle, then close the throttle and stop the engine. Before attempting to start, set the parking brake, set the spark for starting, open the throttle slightly, and turn the key to BAT.

John Codman · Post by **John Codman** » Thu Oct 12, 2023 1:07 pm

TXGOAT2 wrote: ↑
Thu Oct 12, 2023 12:59 pm
A free starts occurs when you turn the ignition key to BAT and the engine starts and runs. (If it occurs at all)
Always set the parking brake before trying to start the car by any method.
A T will not free start on MAG.
A free start does not involve any activity other than setting the parking brake, opening the throttle a little, setting the spark for starting, and turning the key to BAT.

That was my understanding.

Rata Road · Post by **Rata Road** » Thu Oct 12, 2023 4:06 pm

John - just closing the choke isn't priming. This is how I understand it.
To prime you need to get fuel into the cylinders. To do this I turn fuel on, wait a few secs for carb to fill ( because I ran it dry when parked up) then hold out the choke rod and turn crank from 9 to 12 o'clock. Usually takes 2 or 3 times and you will smell fuel. The turning of the crank pulls fuel up from the carb.
All this is done with the key off.
It is now primed.
Lots of motors over the years have recommended this process. I remember in "Easy Rider" they would kick their Harley twice before flicking the ignition switch on and then kicking it over to start.
Some motors benefit from it.

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Thu Oct 12, 2023 5:59 pm

You have to get a combustible mixture into the cylinders, unless one is already there. With an updraft carb, that usually requires choke and cranking. A downdraft carb on T might facilitate free starts.

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Thu Oct 12, 2023 6:01 pm

A Model A with a T ignition system might be a good free starter, since they have a very heavy flywheel that does not sit in oil and they have a real neutral.

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Thu Oct 12, 2023 6:01 pm

Thick oil in a T will work against free starts.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Thu Oct 12, 2023 6:34 pm

Here’s a somewhat infamous car free starting, I mean “starting on the spark.”

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Thu Oct 12, 2023 7:04 pm

A cylinder containing a combustible mixture with the piston half way down, or near it, could exert a good deal of torque due to the crank being in an advantageous position. While compression would be absent, volumetric efficiency would be 100%, thus the actual pressure in the cylinder at the moment of ignition might approach that which would occur at normal slow idle with timing set late for starting. Upon ignition, heat and pressure would rise quickly, helping sustain robust combustion. A cylinder halfway down the power stroke would also contain a large volume of combustible mixture, albeit at atmospheric pressure. After ignition, the pressure would rise very rapidly It's well known that long stroke engines can "kick like a mule". No surprise, then that one can start itself if the right conditions obtain.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Thu Oct 12, 2023 7:20 pm

I was somewhat surprised to see that “starting on the spark” was a common theme and often mentioned in early auto stories (1904 on). Ford was promoting the concept with their first four cylinder model (B). Winton, who came out with their air starter in 1907 (Model 16-6), declared that the violence of an explosion on a static motor was harmful to the crankshaft and bearings. Even the Ford K manual had a subtle disclaimer about the practice. Interesting thread. Thank you for all the good posts.

John Codman · Post by **John Codman** » Fri Oct 13, 2023 11:52 am

Kevin - I agree that closing the choke isn't priming. It also isn't doing anything unless the engine is turning over.

Post by **NealW** » Fri Oct 13, 2023 1:39 pm

George House wrote: ↑
Wed Oct 11, 2023 6:32 pm
And, have you figured out why you “never get a free start on magneto” Neal ?

Yes George, I think I've figured out why I never get a free start with it set to magneto!

Mark Osterman · Post by **Mark Osterman** » Sat Oct 14, 2023 9:26 am

My T will occasionally give me a free start in the morning when I turn the key to battery. Mostly though it will give a free start after it’s warmed up and I have turned off the ignition, after which I switch it back onto battery when I want to demonstrate hand cranking. LOL. If that happens I switch to Mag and pull the crank a little harder.

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Sat Oct 14, 2023 10:33 am

I don't think free starts would ever damage a T engine. You'd have no compression pressure, and the mixture in the cylinder would not likely be ideal. You could expect a stronger initial firing impulse when starting the engine with the crank, where a better mixture would be likely and compression would be present. Suddenly opening the throttle on an idling engine would produce very strong firing impulses. The most violent firing impulses would result from detonation at low engine speeds with open throttle.