Oil lamp tops

[Belliott3]

Did Ford ever use unmarked brass tops during the 1915 production era? Would these tops have been replacements?

[George Mills]

Bill,

I'll share my point of view...let me get my Kevlar 'undies' first...lol

To answer your question having decades of involvement in this very question I'd say 'YES'. Will anyone else ever really agree with that conclusion? 'NO'. There is actually no documentation other than some of the respected old guys who use to profess to witnessing original '15 cars having different makers lamps...sometimes even mixed and matched on the same car.

Those who take 'the Bible' verbatim and factual today do not understand the way that Bruce actually viewed what he put together. Bruce would readily and openly admit that the 'work' in putting it together was based on either proven fact, or, a lead that found general consensus of his collaborators. He ALWAYS left the collaborator part open for evolution and correction...while at the same time leaving some of the fact open for reconsideration. I for one originally agreed with the 'what probably was' and 'safety in numbers' view to things...and Bruce and myself did always discuss there needed to be room for revisit especially on transition years as for each of those major 'transitions' there seem to always be more exceptions than there are rules. [Should folks toss out an exception that can not actually be proven, to conform to the general consensus and safety in numbers approach?]. I digress...

For what it is worth...on this...my stash box has 'bald' brass chimney tops in it, the set came with my '15 which does have a pretty tight provenance on it and signs it has very very low miles. Like my bent running board shields which are 'a shame to be damaged' to most, until I say 'look at the other side', I got tired of being informed constantly the chimney tops just had to be repro...so...now...they are correct and those others 'in a box' just in case....

[DanTreace]

Agree

Many of the 1915 lamps have no mfg or Ford markings, but rather sure they were used on Fords.

Interesting too is some have no rivet for the door latch, some have a single rivet, and ones with mfg marking and script on the top have dual rivets......

[Belliott3]

Very interesting! The lamps I’m referring to also have no patent dates or names on the bottom of the oil fonts. The car, which is a December 1915 build, (which I know is a 1916, and supposed to have all black lamp trim) is an unrestored, original touring car once owned by the late Steve Coniff. He bought it at an auction in Kansas in 1999 and the story goes that the car was put in long term storage after the original owner died rather early. I don’t think Steve would have changed out the black trim for brass on such an original car, and the lamps appear to be as old and crusty as the rest of the vehicle! I’m not sure what to make of this, but since the car appears to have had these lamps on for quite a long time, who am I to change thing’s now!

[Belliott3]

More pics when the previous owner owned it.

[Allan]

Unbranded tops on our Canadian sourced cars too. That's one way to get around tarrifs on non Empire built parts.

Allan from down under.

[Wayne Sheldon]

I have been too busy with some family issues to write a lengthy piece on the other "1915 oil lamps thread? currently running. But yes, almost absolutely there were 1915 lamps with no makers marks or lamp numbers anywhere on them except maybe the burners inside? Which by the way might have been changed at some time in over a hundred years?
There were several companies that manufactured those lamps, and only a couple of them marked the tops. Font bowls? I have seen a few with no patent dates on the underside. Maybe they were replacements? Maybe not?
The design for 1915 for the first time was specific enough that all the parts were supposed to be interchangeable between all the manufacturers! But there were several variations. Thumb tabs on the lens bezels could have two, one, or even no rivet to strengthen the soldered connection. The shape and method of the catch spring/tab also varies a lot.

As for universal fit across the manufacturers?
Over the years I restored two 1915/'16 brass Ts, an early 1916 center-door sedan, and my 1915 runabout. Always on a tight budget, I bought a lot of bargain lamps, ones in poor condition or missing a lot of parts. Thirty years ago I put a nice set together for the center-door sedan, and kept a box of leftover lamps and parts. When I was putting together the lamps for my 1915 runabout, I gathered the scattered and boxed parts and lamps
I had, began cleaning them up, and put a bunch of rusty pieces into a de-rusting bath. After a couple weeks, I cleaned them nicely, began painting and repairing all the parts (enough to make almost three sets of oil lamps!), one full set brass trim, two sets 1916 style black trim (I could use some better brass trim).
I sorted out the various parts that came out looking the best, and began assembly. What I found was that not all pieces fit quite the same. Oh, they would work together, but just not fit quite right. Swapping chimneys and bodies around made a difference. Font bowls also seemed to vary considerably. A few of the nicest pieces didn't want to fit as well as parts with minor flaws would. Most of the parts I was working with were pre1918. Careful examination revealed minor differences in method of manufacturing. Things like cut edges, stamping, spot welding or riveting work.

The brass hats? I think I have four of them currently. Only one has the name on the top. And one is a different oddity. It is on my early 1915 transitional tail lamp. That entire lamp is very different than the common 1915 style lamps. There were several variants over several months, with changes made along the way. Those are not documented very well. My tail lamp's "brass hat" is slightly larger than the common ones. Both the brass part and the threaded stud are slightly larger. Not much, just a bit. (If you have one and wonder why it doesn't quite fit?)
Some of the earliest style, used mostly on the early couplets and center-door sedans, have been shown in detail in the club magazines over the years. But the transitional side and tail lamps used from about December 1914 through maybe February 1915, I have never seen much in photos or documentation. I have seen a few of the lamps over the years at swap meets, and even on cars. Era photos usually don't show the sidelamps well enough to be certain which style they were, and if they do show the lamp clearly, it is almost always the later common style. I do have several era photos of early 1915 style Ts that appear to have the transitional lamps. Enough to believe they were produced that way for a short while.

Model T Fords. The ultimate icon mass production. Fifteen million of them built, all alike. But no two exactly alike it would seem? Lots of rules. Even more exceptions.

[George Mills]

To further support Waynes experiences...

My own experience in starting with 'piles' and ending up with whole lamps and matching sets is...Chimneys are different, even when they look the same [dual row vent holes on the 15's], they seat in the body differently...or is it body that differs? The cap thread stud is another...you can casually get some cap to fully bottom out before the chimney is 'tight', but the next cap over, or the next chimney over, or the next chimney liner swapped out makes up just fine.