Distributor and coil, vs. Coil boxes and timer

vping · Post by **vping** » Thu Dec 28, 2023 2:10 pm

The '25 currently has a distributor and coil partially hooked up. Amongst the parts we're about 20 spark plugs, spark plug wire sets, a few timers, a half dozen coil boxes and a bunch of coil box repair parts,.. Some new in package and some used.

PO told me he had trouble getting it running, so he started to switch over to the dizzy. (PO owned the car for 40 years, fully restored it and drove it to Hershey and local shows so I know it was working at one point)

Are there advantages to the dizzy set up?

Should I switch back over to timer and coil boxes?

Norman Kling · Post by **Norman Kling** » Thu Dec 28, 2023 2:30 pm

It is dependent on whether or not you want to experience the original Ford ignition system and also whether or not you want to show your car in car shows. If you have any good coils in the collection, try them in the coil box and run on your 6 volt battery. They should work if the timer and coil box connections are good and there are no carbon burns on the coil box from sparks jumping inside the coil box. If you get it running, but it is misfiring. If you find a miss on one or more cylinders swap for a coil which haves a good spark. If the misfire goes with the coil to the other cylinder, the problem is the coil. If it still is on the same cylinder, it is either the timer, the contacts in the coil box or a bad spark plug. Anyway when you get it running good on battery, using an analog AC volt meter, check the magneto post at the top of the magneto for voltage. It should be at least 6 volts AC at idle and increase with engine speed. If so, your magneto is working. I know it is a lot to check and fix to get it running on magneto, but once it does, you will be surprised to how much better on magneto than battery.
If you want to use a distributor, be sure to find out what battery voltage the ignition coil is intended for and use that voltage. If it is made for 12 volts, then the battery, generator and starter must be converted to 12 volts as well as the electric lights. You must also carry with you the necessary replacement parts such as cap, rotor, points and condenser because there are many different kinds of distributors which can be adapted to fit a T, and many of the parts are not available at the local auto parts dealer, or must be put on order, so on tours you might need to use some spares you carry with you. Even the others on the tour who might have distributors might not have spare parts which will fit yours. But there is almost someone who will have a spare coil or timer. Which, if you do use coils and timer, be sure to carry at least one spare part with you, just in case you need it
So either way there is a lot to do to get it running well.
I think I have given you the whole story.
Norm

Post by **TWrenn** » Thu Dec 28, 2023 3:27 pm

At this point, if it's running decent, as they say, if it aint broke, don't fix it!
The one timer in your picture IS broke...the top part where the spark adjust rod attaches is broke. Who knows what shape the roller is in, and most who know me will tell you I don't like them, I'm what I admit is a "TW Timer snob"!! And proud of it. Cause they run flawlessly.

Post by **George House** » Thu Dec 28, 2023 3:40 pm

Yes and Yes...Yes, the distributor advantage is if you’re caught out in a frog stranglin rain. Coil box more likely to short out…. Yes,…keep it running right with Henry Ford Model T components.

Post by **Craig Leach** » Thu Dec 28, 2023 3:57 pm

First I think the forum should have a CAN OF WORMS catagory in the index. This subject being up there with What oil to run, & water pumps ect.
Norm pretty much hit the nail on the head. The only thing that dictates the voltage needed to run a dizzy is the coil & that change is easy to
overcome by getting the correct coil. If you are running 12 volt ( another subject for the CAN OF WORMS catagory) with a 6 volt coil a ballast
resistor is required. Some believe that T coils break down at high rpm. The Montana 500 guys have proved that to not be true. If you put your
car out for judging coils are the rule. Either way in poor condition they will both take the fun out of your day. Some think dizzies are more
reliable. I can not swear to that. I have got some good deals on dizzies that someone had pulled thier hair out over & the same on coils &
timers. Coils are original dizzies are not & I can't remember ever getting a free start with a dizzy.
Craig.

Allan · Post by **Allan** » Thu Dec 28, 2023 4:09 pm

There are disadvantages with the distributor set-up.

There is little you can do to set the correct gear mesh between the van gear and shaft. It is a fit and forget set-up, and you can only hope it is corect.

A problem when operating same is a problem for all cylinders. With standard coils you can just swap out a dud, or limp home on 3 cylinders.

If you are on tour and have problems, and other drivers are like me, they might not be able to help. When the distributor on my tudor plays up, it will be replaced with a standard set-up which I understand.

Allan from down under.

Post by **Tmooreheadf** » Thu Dec 28, 2023 4:41 pm

Because I did not understand the Ford ignition original to a T, and the folks we started touring with so many years ago tuned their T's by ear, I switched to a distributor. We have had several T's and when there were issues with the Ford ignition, it was a pretty quick fix to go to a distributor. We continue to use 6 volts. Our T's run pretty good with low maintenance. One car had not had the distributor cap off for 6 years. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. I do appreciate and respect those who run the Ford ignition. And at some point, I may even give it a try. That would involve setting up the mag parts, coil box, coils, wiring, timer either modern or original roller type, etc. For now we'll keep what we have. Like it or not, we have a lot of fun driving miles on a distributor. We carry spare parts just like others do with the Ford ignition.
I like our disc brakes, too. But that's another can of worms.
Enjoy your car. Isn't that the name of the game? We certainly do!

Post by **RajoRacer** » Thu Dec 28, 2023 5:01 pm

I run both types of ignition systems - it's simply a matter of personal choice - it's your Model T !!!

vping · Post by **vping** » Thu Dec 28, 2023 8:03 pm

The car is 6 volt. I'm not sure how far along the PO got with putting in the distributor. It looks like it is mostly in, wired and just needed to have the leads attached to the spark plugs. He gave me a dry 6v Napa battery #7244, of unknown age but it looked fairly new. I filled with distilled water but I don't have a 6v charger. Once I get the battery situation squared away, I'll have to do more investigating.

In looking it over tonight, I contemplated putting back to stock coil boxes.

I need to determine best course of events, for breakdowns, and what spares would be best to keep and get me back on the road.

Norman Kling · Post by **Norman Kling** » Thu Dec 28, 2023 8:48 pm

There should be a sticker or stamp somewhere on the battery which indicates the date of manufacture. If more than 4 or 5 years and especially in a discharged state, it might not be any good. If you can get a charger, charge it up and see if it will hold a charge. New 6V Group 1 batteries can be had at Auto Zone. Some stores even have them in stock. Look for the date to be sure you get a fresh one. I have also ordered from Napa, but usually takes a day or two to be delivered to the local store. They don't keep them in stock.
Norm

vping · Post by **vping** » Thu Dec 28, 2023 9:03 pm

Can't find a code. Only a small sticker on the side, H3.

Post by **Charlie B in N.J.** » Thu Dec 28, 2023 9:54 pm

The distributor option is so common it’s totally acceptable to me. They both work well if properly maintained. One is not better than the other performance wise as they offer no better power or drive ability one over the other.

Post by **Craig Leach** » Fri Dec 29, 2023 12:37 am

Hi Vincent,
Allan has a point on some dizzies you just can't see the gears. If the dizzy is not set up with centrifugal advance you can get a pretty good feel
for the gear mesh by turning the distributer shaft with your fingers. If you can't see or feel the mesh, turn the engine to TDC & mark the pulley
& rotor possission. Remove the dizzy put some gear marking compound on the cam & dizzy gear, install, turn the engine over 2 revolutions,
remove and check the mesh the install when satisfied, Don't forget the dizzy needs lubed regularly to give good long service. The Dizzy you
have there looks like a Bosch 009. That is the most common to get parts for but have spares with you. Most don't know the rotor has a noise
supresion resistor in it. And they go bad, they will drive you nuts because the appear to be good when testing & fail when driving. Keep 2 in
the tool box. It is the easyest thing to change & then you have one for the next guy. Don't leave home with out them. There are several models
of Bosch dizzies that the parts look alike & fit. But are not the same & will give poor performance or even damage each other. I have never
even had a complete Ford ignition system & have nothing against them but do prefer period dizzies like Thomas, Atwater-Kent & American
Bosch that way I still have 100 year old parts to give me a bad time just like you guys that run coils & timers do.

Craig.

Post by **TRDxB2** » Fri Dec 29, 2023 1:25 am

vping wrote: ↑
Thu Dec 28, 2023 2:10 pm
The '25 currently has a distributor and coil partially hooked up........

Should I switch back over to timer and coil boxes?

You may have a distributor because of magneto issues or that it was removed.

You need to properly identify the distributor. The "original" American Bosch, included centrifugal advance, and require the period replacement parts. Original 009 VW Robert Bosch distributors became a popular modification but required advance curve changes. AND some of these were available for purchase. Texas T now sells a 009 knock off modified for the Model T.
You can see the differences in these two - the first appears to be marked as a VW, as Craig noted. Also has the same lever for the commutator rod as yours

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The current Texas T's version.
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nstallation instructions should be close enough for either

Texas T instr.pdf: (1022.68 KiB) Downloaded 81 times

Post by **RajoRacer** » Fri Dec 29, 2023 11:41 am

It appears that distributor set-up could be a Bill Rader item due to the bell crank for the spark lead arms.

vping · Post by **vping** » Fri Dec 29, 2023 12:54 pm

Here's more pics of what I have. Seems just the plugs are not attached. The inside of the dizzy is spotless.. Wires look new.

Post by **Original Smith** » Sat Dec 30, 2023 10:30 am

A Model T is not a Model T if it doesn't have four coils in the coil box!

Post by **Ed Fuller** » Sat Dec 30, 2023 11:05 am

I prefer stock Ford ignition over a distributor. It’s tough to beat the redundancy of a timer and coils.

If you’re out driving and your mag gives up, you can switch to battery to get you home. If a coil stops working you can quickly swap in a spare or limp home on three cylinders.

Timers do wear out and can cause rough running or a misfire, but a worn out timer can still get you home. I suppose a timer could fail completely but it’s highly unlikely. A spare timer and roller are easy to carry and swap out.

One of my T’s has a non working magneto. I’ve been running the coils off of a 12 volt battery for years and it runs great.

Not passing judgement on those who run a distributor, just my thoughts and experience.

Post by **John kuehn** » Sat Dec 30, 2023 11:58 am

Nothing better than to hear the coils buzzing away in a Model T. To me it’s the originality of the way Ford built the T. My opinion

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Sat Dec 30, 2023 12:22 pm

Distributor is a Hella, which is VW(?)

I'd use the original ignition system. It appears that you have most or all of it.

It offers reliability, easy starting, period correctness, and free starts.

If your magneto is inoperative, I suggest repairing it. The original ignition system with battery and magneto is hard to beat, and it can be easily equipped to charge a small 12 volt battery for modern conveniences like a cell phone and a Garmin device.

Post by **TRDxB2** » Sat Dec 30, 2023 1:47 pm

The distributor is a Bosch 009 , used on VW's BUT likely an original vs repro or new oem
These had centrifugal advance and if it is

: bosch logo.png (159.85 KiB) Viewed 4345 times

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Distributors were period correct items as were external magnetos, mostly used for racing,.
Cost considerations VW parts available at any Auto parts Stores - Model T parts at selected suppliers

vping · Post by **vping** » Sat Dec 30, 2023 7:52 pm

Decisions, decisions..

I like the idea of having the original parts. Deep down, I'm a purist but.....I also do like performance and upgrades when they are better than the original.

Since the distributor is already hooked up, I'll try and get it running as is.

Once I do get it running, I can start to look into the parts I have and eventually switch it back to the original boxes and timer.

I have the carb removed to free up some gunk at the shut off valve and I'm cleaning out the gas line. The inside of the carb is bone dry and no signs of varnish. The only thing I don't know is how far that center pin (needle?) needs to be screwed in. I unscrewed it before I knew to make note of where it was.

Now I'm off to see how to test a magneto and make sure it works still. It's hard to push the car around so I assume it's the magneto. Might have nothing to do with it.

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Sat Dec 30, 2023 9:04 pm

Trademark misled me. I thought the "H" mark was Hella.

Post by **John kuehn** » Sat Dec 30, 2023 9:09 pm

When the car is on a level garage floor and the handbrake in in a straight up position you should be able to turn the engine with the hand crank fairly easy and not move the car if any or not at all. You should be able to push the car fairly easy also. Also with a cold engine the oil on the clutch plates will cause a little stiffness so be aware of that.
The Magneto itself doesn’t have anything to do with the car not moving.

The magnets are attached to the flywheel itself as being a part of the transmission assembly. The transmission assembly is what your turning with the hand crank.

Refer to the Ford manual about adjusting the clutch linkage correctly to give a good neutral when the handbrake is in the vertical position. Good luck with you 25 T!

Post by **Jeff Hood** » Tue Jan 02, 2024 1:49 am

If you are going to run a distributor, take out the points and install a PerTronix in there. I believe they are available in 6V or 12V for Volkswagen dizzys. Some may scoff, but I have run PerTronix units in several cars (not Model Ts) for years with zero maintenance or trouble. If you are worried, keep the old points and condenser in the toolbox, it only takes a few minutes to change it back, but you never will have to do it. The problem I have with VW dizzys is that there are no longer quality parts available for them and parts stores do not stock parts for 45-50 year old cars! The last VW to use that dizzy was sold in 1979.

Several years ago on a 4 day 500 plus mile tour we spent several hours and many roadside stops babysitting two cars with bad condensers in VW distributors. There were six cars and on the way home on the last day with the trouble stops, we became two groups of 3 cars separated by about ten miles. We finally nursed the one I was following to a fairly large city with the full variety of auto parts chain stores. Nobody had a condenser. They all could order one and have in a few days. Finally a customer in one store told us of a guy who only worked on old VWs, so we went there. As we walked through the door with the condenser in our hand he looked up and said "Those are junk." We said we were well aware and wanted one that wasn't "junk," to which he replied, "They aren't available. I sold my last one and I'm trying to get some more. Everything is made in Brazil or China and none of them are any good. They're bad right out of the box!" He then sent us to an independent parts store that he was pretty sure might have one of the "junk" ones in stock. They had one and the car made it home. The other car was ahead of us somewhere and also broken down. He had already changed the condenser the first day with an old one in his toolbox and just like us, there were no new ones to be had, but they decided that it had been running better with the first bad condenser than it was now so he changed it back and sputtered on home.

I think one car was switched back to Model T coils and has been fine since, while the other guy continues to make "improvements" to his car (12V, oil pump, oil filter, alternator, etc." and I don't think he has successfully completed a tour since.

Post by **SurfCityGene** » Tue Jan 02, 2024 6:08 pm

I'm not sure if anyone else above has asked or you have stated that your magneto is bad. That's the first thing you must determine because if it is then pulling the engine is required and major expense. That used to be the reason guys installed a disy system on their cars because it was a quick and easy way to get back on the road.

I'd offer this advice if you want to drive your T and have the original Model T look and feel. Consider an ETimer from Mike Kossor. It gives you the best performance and Reliability of any system available! Your car will then look exactly like a Model T and never need any maintenance or adjusting. You can easily sell your dist'y system and if you already have your coil box and a set of coils you'll never have to ever worry about your ignition system again!!

Post by **SurfCityGene** » Tue Jan 02, 2024 6:31 pm

LIke Pat and John and several others prefer the original I'm really surprised no one has suggested the Etimer... Sounds like you have enough parts that you would only need to buy one of Mikes timers and you'd be done with that for good! It might be worth checking it out.

vping · Post by **vping** » Wed Jan 31, 2024 5:43 pm

If I was installing a coil and distributor from scratch, does anyone have written instructions on how to do so? Just so I can see if the PO installed them correctly.

Norman Kling · Post by **Norman Kling** » Wed Jan 31, 2024 6:10 pm

Even if you go to an E timer, be sure to carry a spare old fashoned times. Electronic things do tend to go bad. So you need to keep something just in case.
As to running the coils on 6 volts. I once ran one of my T's on 6 volt battery, and it ran, however, it was one of the slowest cars on a tour. Fixed the magneto and now it is one of the faster cars. The coils will work a bit better on 12 volts, but then you need to change the starter, lights, generator and everything electric. Some people change from generator to alternator. I have seen more cars with problems on tours with distributors and with Alternators. The Ford parts if kept in good condition, cause very few breakdowns on tours. If your magneto isn't working, you can go 12 volts or use an e timer or distributor until you need to do engine or transmission work which requires pulling the engine, and then repair the magneto at that time.
Norm

Post by **TRDxB2** » Wed Jan 31, 2024 6:50 pm

vping wrote: ↑
Wed Jan 31, 2024 5:43 pm
If I was installing a coil and distributor from scratch, does anyone have written instructions on how to do so? Just so I can see if the PO installed them correctly.

Here does 6v & 12V instructions
Not sure what you have but they are pretty much the same.

Texas T instr.pdf: (1022.68 KiB) Downloaded 48 times

: Ralph Reeder.jpeg (67.73 KiB) Viewed 3916 times

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Focus on the wires to the coil the + - that's the important part

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vping · Post by **vping** » Wed Jan 31, 2024 8:04 pm

Thanks. At least it'll give me a chance at figuring it out once I do go to start it. So far, wiring looks good, plugs look good, cap is new, carb is clean as is gas line. Last week, I cleaned up the sediment bowl so that's all clear.

vping · Post by **vping** » Wed Jan 31, 2024 8:06 pm

I have a quart of acetone in the tank and it looks like it's working on the varnish. Once I fill it with fresh gas, I should be able to crank her over.

Post by **DHort** » Wed Jan 31, 2024 9:11 pm

Vincent

go to www.texastparts.com and click on ignition system, then click on distributor, and you will find the instructions (6 pages)

Post by **Steve Jelf** » Wed Jan 31, 2024 9:13 pm

Some think dizzies are more reliable.

I wish those folks could have been with me all the times I was stuck by the side of the road with distributor trouble.

vping · Post by **vping** » Wed Jan 31, 2024 9:18 pm

Response from the real Steve Jelf?

I'm in your corner. Most all of my classics run a stock ignition with points over more modern pertronix. I've had less problems.

If I could put it back to coil boxes, I would. It's already set up for dizzy so I'll give it a shot. If I run into problems, I'll switch it.

Allan · Post by **Allan** » Wed Jan 31, 2024 10:56 pm

I understand what Craig was trying to convey with his description of how to check the gear mesh on a distributor. What I can't get my head around is if you find it out somewhat, what can you do to fix/change it?

I suppose the cam gear can be shimmed in or out, but does that alter the out of mesh? Making sure the timing cover is properly centred might also alter the mesh if it is out. Otherwise it is a fit-it-and-hope situation.

Allan from down under.

Post by **Craig Leach** » Thu Feb 01, 2024 9:55 am

Hi Allan,
Dizzy's have somewhere between 12 & 16 teeth on the drive gear which is from 22.5 - 30 degrees of rotation. With the possible rotation of the
dizzy, linkage & adjustable arms (on some) it is just a matter of moving it one tooth if it's just a little out. I always center the timing cover.
Craig.

Allan · Post by **Allan** » Thu Feb 01, 2024 5:28 pm

Craig, you missed the point. Your solution resets the timing. It does nothing about the mesh of the gears. I have seen so many sets of badly worn/out of mesh gears on old distributor conversions but can see no way of improving the mesh.
Allan from down under.

Post by **Craig Leach** » Thu Feb 01, 2024 6:20 pm

Sorry Allan,
The term out somewhat threw me. If the gears are worn out there is not much can be done, but it doesn't take much to drive a dizzy if its in good shape bushing wise. the only friction is the points rubbing on the block. I have seen gears that had run a long time with only half the tooth depth
engaged because of a miss aligned cover or something. Bosch dizzies have a thin drive gear that does have to be spaced correctly to get a good
mesh. most of those have a plug that comes out the bottom so you can see the gears. When you look at some of the dizzies they are driven only
by the roller pin so there cant be to much load on the gears.
Craig.