Why no braking in reverse with Rocky Mtn brakes?

[KellyJons]

I’ve read that there have been accidents caused by Rocky Mountain brakes not holding on hills and allowing the car to roll backwards uncontrollably in reverse.

I don’t understand why the foot pedal transmission brake band or the “emergency” hand brake didn’t hold on the hill. What am I missing here? I am new to the Model T Fords and still trying to figure them out…

Do you have to pull the handbrake lever every time you’re sitting on a hill and might roll backwards?

Sorry if this has already been asked and answered elsewhere… I did try searching the forum, but couldn’t find the answer.

Kelly

[1923Touring]

Kelly,

To answer your question, the reproduction Rocky Mountain brakes will not work in reverse, while the originals will, this is due to their design. Many people want accessory brakes for additional stopping power, the faster you go, the faster you should be able to stop, but they are essential if you have an auxiliary transmission that could become stuck in neutral. Then the only thing you would be left with is the emergency brake because the transmission brake works through the drive line.
You could also go ahead an use a set of AC brakes, which are very similar, but will work on a small drum axle, and the reproductions also work in reverse.

I hope this helps, and I am sure others will fill in the gaps where I left out information.

-Joshua

[DHort]

I strongly recommend wheel chocks if you are parking on a hill

[AndyClary]

While RM brakes don’t self energize in reverse, proper adjustment of the RM and stock brake band will stop you at reasonable speeds. This topic has been beaten to death, I’d suggest a search on adjusting brakes.

Andy

[KellyJons]

Maybe I did not ask the question properly… I understand that it is a given that Rocky Mountain brakes do not work in reverse. That’s a serious design flaw that I can’t get my head around, and to me is completely unacceptable, but whatever… I am not asking about the proper adjustment of Rocky Mountain brakes. I get it… They don’t work in reverse.

What I don’t understand is this: drivers of cars with Rocky Mountain brakes must surely know that they need some sort of braking that they can count on when they are stopped on a hill while driving. AND YET… they DON’T have those brakes and can’t stop when rolling backwards.

Why? Is there something about the installation of Rocky Mountain brakes that disables any other way to stop the car when rolling in reverse? Is the handbrake disconnected? Is the foot pedal transmission brake not working either?

And I guess that gets me to the second part of my question: with a stock Model T, DOES the foot pedal brake hold on a hill without the use of the handbrake? I know this probably sounds stupid, but I’ve never driven a Model T and don’t know anyone who can answer this question. And I can’t find the answer in any of the T books I have, either. That’s why I’m asking it here. I’ve tried searching the forums but I get a million hits and it would take me a long time to wade through them.

[mtntee20]

Rocky Mountain brakes are BAND brakes around the parking brake drum. IF the band is mounted one way, it will grab hard in one direction, let's say forward. If it's mounted the opposite way, it will grab in Reverse. If it's mounted half way, you'll get half braking in both directions. The originals were more like the half way mounting. The new Rocky Mountain brakes are more like the first mounting for forward mostly. This is all due to: Self Energizing. As the drum turns inside the band, when the band is tightened the drum rotation direction adds/pulls the band tighter. When the direction is reversed, the drum has the opposite effect tending to loosen the band. Thus, the 3 mount/action results above.

The foot brake (band), AND the parking brake (shoe), AND the auxiliary brake (all models, band) ALL suffer ONE big problem: ADJUSTMENT!
Adjustments are difficult and NOT self adjusting like current automobiles. Often the foot brake is NOT adjusted tight so as to NOT heat the brake drum in the transmission and cause cracks or wearing out out the band. Parking brakes are often NOT adjusted properly due to the hassle of adjusting the brake connecting rods. Auxiliary brakes are often NOT adjusted properly due to not wanting the outside band dragging on the brake drum and an out of round brake band.

Quick, down and dirty explanation. Good Luck

[Craig Leach]

Rocky Mountain brakes as in the later generation are self energising in the forward direction to maximise the stopping power of the brakes.
the issue is if you have a Auxillary trans & you are in neutral you will be unable to stop the car rolling backwards because the rockies don't work
well is revearse because of the design of the brakes & the fact that you do not have a connection to the ford brake!!!. If you don't have ford
park brakes that work because you have not been able to sincronize all of these braking systems. You have the auxillary trans in neutral & the
park brake is not working as it should then you will not be able to stop the car from rolling backwards!! Or get the auxillary trans in gear! if this happens press on the reverse peddel to revearse the rotation of the shaft so you have a better chance to get the auxillary trans in gear.
Other wise you will be the first one one the scene of a bad accident! AC brakes self energise 50% forward & 50% backwards but not as much
stopping power as rockies forward. Shure-stops are great & work wet or dry.
Craig.

[A Whiteman]

Thanks Terry, you explained it well. 'Self-energising' is a cool term, but is just jargon for new comers to the hobby.

I remember it bandied about without knowing what it actually meant for a long time, so it was good to have an explanation of what that means:

As the drum turns inside the band, when the band is tightened the drum rotation direction adds/pulls the band tighter. When the direction is reversed, the drum has the opposite effect tending to loosen the band.

So 'self-energising' just means that due to its rotation the drum grabs the band as the band is tightened so increasing the braking force. As Terry said, the opposite is true for reverse as in that case the drum is pushing the band away instead of grabbing it.

AC brakes always have half the bad 'grabbing' and half 'pushing' whichever direction you are going, so has good reversing brakes compared to RM but not as good in the forward direction.

Many consider the good forward brakes better to have, and a good (lined) standard parking brake to hold on hills - or just reverse slowly!

[bobt]

My Rocky Mountain brakes do not wrap around the parking brake drum and a Model T water pump makes an excellent wheel chock. bobt

[Wayne Sheldon]

Kelly Jons, I for a long time have been an opposing view on the "Rocky Mountain" brake issue. In my opinion, they are seriously flawed in their design and those flaws should have been corrected a couple decades ago.
A point of fact, the original 1920s design was very good, and they were nicely reproduced in the 1960s. At some point, someone decided to improve the braking efficiency on them, and instead of making minor modifications in the original design instead used another competing era accessory brake (the large drum AC brand) and with some simple changes made them 100 percent self energizing in one direction only. And dangerously useless in reverse!

There are several often recommended ways to install them and actuate them. Most people seem to want to set the service brake pedal to actuate the RM brakes, and a kit is available to do this.
It is possible to separate the pedal brake from the hand brake, but a lot of people do not go to the trouble. I think that is a HUGE mistake! Every car, especially a model T, should have two fully functioning independent braking systems! Other than the wheel itself (which if it falls off, the car is grinding to a halt anyway?), there should NOT be any single shaft, bushing, rod, pedal or anything that if it somehow fails could cause both the service and the emergency brake to fail!
I have had two model Ts with the modern RM brakes on them. Both of them, I set up so that the service brake remained as Ford factory made it, and the emergency brake operated the RM brakes. The brake handle (if you learn to use it appropriately) has better leverage and better control than does the foot pedal. Personally, I find the Ford service brake to be adequate for most routine stops. And if I need a little extra, I use the brake handle.
That works for me.

A lot of people really want the RMs on their brake pedal. And for most stops, that works very well. Until you get into that situation having to stop going uphill, and not being able to hold it. If your pedal and hand brake are integrated? You run into serious maintenance issues trying to balance them so that both work at all times. A lot of people claim that is not any trouble. A few found out the hard way that they were wrong.
There are several ways that the RMs can be applied by the pedal, and an independent inside shoe brake can be operated by the brake handle. For those that want the RMs on the pedal? That is what I recommend.

A few enterprising and creative folks have put the RMs onto a modified mounted pedal, and then through a modified shaft connected the brake handle to the transmission brake! Sound complicated, is a bit, but not all that hard to do. I however, do not like that idea either. If one also uses an auxiliary transmission of some sort? Having the auxiliary transmission in neutral for any reason (deliberate or accidental?) (like when starting the engine?) prevents the parking brake from holding the car in any way at all. Think about it.

I have said these things before, several times. But still, most people do what they do.

As for other modern "fixes" like hydraulic or disc brakes on model Ts? That has to be a personal choice. Safety versus era correctness isn't always an easy choice. The fact is, two wheel brakes on skinny tires are two wheel brakes on skinny tires. The means by which they are actuated doesn't make much difference. Properly restored, and properly adjusted, era correct brakes are adequate. Unless one goes to four wheel brakes? I personally prefer era correct mechanical brakes on antiques. But that is me.

[JohnM]

Wayne, Amen to that! Well said.

[TXGOAT2]

If you drive in mountain country, or anywhere steep slopes are encountered, you need to lean how to use and conserve the Model Ts limited braking ability to the maximum. That's true whether you have auxiliary brakes or not. Technique is very important, as is having everything adjusted properly. At best, a Model T has limited SUSTAINED braking ability, even with auxiliary brakes. The brakes will get hot very quickly when used on long descents or repeated hard stops. To avoid this, use engine braking to control speed and learn how to avoid getting "caught in neutral" when using an auxiliary transmission. The addition of modern disc brakes on the rear axle will vastly improve braking ability in situations requiring very frequent or SUSTAINED brake application, but you still have only 2 wheel braking and skinny tires and forward weight transfer, so in a panic stop, rear discs will not stop a T any faster than good stock brakes in proper adjustment. As far as stopping power, driving a Model T is a lot like driving a heavily loaded semi-truck. Personally, I would avoid driving a Model T in heavy urban traffic. *!!*Note that the steering on a Model T behaves very differently when moving in reverse*!!*
When moving in reverse, a Model T's steering and braking control is reduced. Always go very slowly when backing up a Model T, and NEVER let it get rolling fast backward!!

[Oldav8tor]

The Ford brake is inadequate in my opinion. I had experiences on some steep hills that could have ended badly. My solution was to install hydraulic disc brakes. The Ford brake is set to engage in the unlikely situation where the hydraulic brakes fail, otherwise it does not engage and “toast” the transmission drum. The hand brake operates normally. Hydraulic brakes need no adjustment, work when wet and work equally going forward or reverse. My car is optimized for touring, not car shows so decisions I make always lean towards what is safest. I considered both RM and AC brakes and decided that disc brakes were best for me. Thousands of safe miles later I am happy with my choice.

[KellyJons]

Thank you everyone for your detailed and informative responses. Lots to think about!

I was astounded when I first read about the issues with modern RM brakes and the number of accidents associated with them.

In _my_ world , “First You Make It Stop, THEN You Make It Go.”

If I do ever own a Model T, it will have disc brakes. While some might sniff at this choice, they WERE invented in 1902.

Kelly

[TXGOAT2]

A great advantage offered by disc brakes is their ability to get rid of heat rapidly. They will provide good braking on long downhill runs and work equally well going forward or backward. They are self-adjusting, too. The Ford pressed steel rear drums get hot very quickly under heavy use, no matter what kind of auxiliary brakes you use with them. The Ford service brake, being oil cooled, can get rid of heat to a degree, but heavy use will overheat it.
Deep-flanged, cast iron rear drums with braking surfaces on both the inside and outside with Rocky Mountain type auxiliary brakes added would be a nice addition to a Model T, but none are available as far as I know.

[J1MGOLDEN]

I learned that small detail the hard way while loading a friend's T on my trailer that was up hill in the front.

When it immediately started rolling back, I pressed the brake and low pedal hard, and the brakes do not work immediately going forward either, as I rode right over the bar across the front, dropped down, and put the trailer jack handle through the radiator.

That only cost me $900 for a friend's new radiator and about $50 for a new trailer jack.

[JohnM]

Kelly, please don't take my comments, ( and some others) as being against making modifications to your own car. There are many things you can do to make a T perform more like a modern vehicle. From bone stock, to something extreme, or something in between.

T_Bucket_001.JPG (47.84 KiB) Viewed 6132 times

Whatever makes you happy. My main point is it is simpler to modify your expectations and driving habits.
Wether you are driving a model T, or flying the space shuttle, if the operator continues to expect it to perform beyond its designed capabilities, you are asking for trouble.

[John kuehn]

It’s a reminder that Model T’s are 100 year old technology! They don’t have real brakes in forward or reverse! Some of us learn the hard way!

[speedytinc]

"I don’t understand why the foot pedal transmission brake band or the “emergency” hand brake didn’t hold on the hill. What am I missing here? I am new to the Model T Fords and still trying to figure them out…"

The answer is the 3 braking systems were not set correctly. All the braking was done with the R/M's only. When they failed going backwards, neither the parking brake or transmission brake could engage.

My first T, a 23 touring was adequate as far as braking. (small drum with lined parking shoes) I drove it sanely. Shortly after restoring it I found a late, big drum Ruxtell. Caving to "popular" convention, I put R/M brakes on it.
I lost my brakes once after an unexpected down pour. R/M's dont work wet either. That was a wake up call. I got educated about the proper adjustment of all 3 brake systems @ the same time. Going backwards the transmission brake takes over & works.

I have since removed those R/M brakes & rely on the transmission brake & lined big drum parking brakes. Keep those big drum shoes grease free & you have the same braking surface as with the R/M's, but are less inclined to get wet & work forward or reverse. This system will lock up the rear wheels anytime. It dont get any better.

My 14 roadster has external brake bands on the original small parking brake drum. I can lock the wheels anytime forward or reverse. It dont get any better. The brakes are barely noticeable.

The key to the excellent external brakes is the anchor point in the middle of the brake band. The pre-redesigned R/M 's easily locked the wheels forward or in reverse.

[TXGOAT2]

My car has kevlar bands and 26-27 rear brakes. I haven't run Pike's Peak in it, but I can utilize all the stopping power the tires can generate under any normal circumstance. When pulled back, the lever stops well short of the seat and the car is held very firmly. This car is a runabout, so it's a little lighter than some Ts.

[A Whiteman]

& rely on the transmission brake & lined big drum parking brakes. Keep those big drum shoes grease free & you have the same braking surface as with the R/M's, but are less inclined to get wet & work forward or reverse. This system will lock up the rear wheels anytime. It dont get any better.

I found the same, and run the same.

On my roadster it is easy to lock up the rear wheels with the standard brakes, you can't get any better efficiency with RMs than that....
With 'better' brakes, the next issue is tyres, as braking is only as good as the small area of tread the T has on the ground.

Addressing each issue (more power, higher speed aux gear box, better brakes, better tyres)..... and then pretty soon you get to a 'Model A'. Hmm.

[YellowTRacer]

Simple answer to the original question. The model T foot brake/transmission brake band will stop you on a hill! Going up or Down.

Ed aka #4

[KellyJons]

Thanks again, everyone… excellent responses and much appreciated!

Kelly

[GGZ]

Simple answer to the original question. The model T foot brake/transmission brake band will stop you on a hill! Going up or Down.

Ed aka #4

Yup, Ed is absolutely correct.

[Original Smith]

I have seen the development of the so called Rocky Mountain Brakes from the beginning! The first series which were more like real Rocky Mountains, actually had the rear part of the brakes correct, but did not do his research, and wrongly thought all equalizers were the same! How wrong could he have been! The man had lots of money, but no mechanical knowledge at all. Therefor two rods. Next he saw a set of A.C. brakes on a 1926 Ford, and decided they would be better. Wrong again. The brakes that Bud sells today are the result. Bud knows better, and is mechanical, but chose to do nothing about the incorrect design. I have three T's and all of them have REAL ROCKY MOUNTAIN BRAKES, old stock. They work perfectly forward and backward.

[KellyJons]

Original Smith, I just knew there had to be more to this story! Thank you for your comments.

Kelly

[Norman Kling]

I have 3 Model T's. All have Ruckstell and Rocky Mountain brakes, the ones they sell now. The Ruckstell low range will slow the car and also amplifies the transmission brake. Be sure to shift while the engine is pulling when you shift ruckstell to low and do it before you start down the steep hill. This will help you slow the car going forward and when it slows down low enough you can shift Ford low which will slow it even more.
Concerning the Rocky Mountain brake. First adjust the Ford transmission brake to it's normal position about 1 1/2 inch above the floorboard. Then adjust the Rocky mountain brake to apply as you push the brake pedal before it hits the Ford brake but if you push hard both brakes are applied. This position should slow or stop the car in reverse when rolling backward. Next adjust the parking brake to apply first before it applies the Rocky Mountain brake. That way if you pull the parking brake it will hold when going backward.
Works very well for me on all 3 cars. I like the stopping ability of disk brakes but they do not look period correct. They can also fail if you get a hydrolic leak.
Norm

[m_p_dean@yahoo.com]

I don't have RM brakes, but this seemed like a good, semi-related discussion to hijack.
I have a set of "Master" brand auxiliary wheel brakes that I picked up for my '17 Touring...minus any linkage. Is anybody familiar with Master brakes, and their linkage? Any information you could share would be helpful, minimizing any required wheel reinventing (or wheel brake reinventing).
Transferring motion from the pedal to the rear is not a problem, it's information about the linkage at the wheel that I'm looking for.
Thanks, Maury Dean

[KellyJons]

Thank you, Norman, your second paragraph, especially, is exactly what I wanted to hear.

I agree with you completely regarding disc brakes, but I didn’t know what else to do. Your well-reasoned set-up sounds perfect.

Kelly

[GGZ]

Norm- You are ABSOLUTELY right regarding the RM brakes. They are a great product.

I bought my first RM set from Jack Sunderlin (sp?) in the 1980s for the 1912. The 1912 Model T has been driven about 80,000 miles (yes, that is eighty thousand miles). The RM brakes work really well. Up and more importantly, downhill. This car has been driven up and down some hills and a few of small mountains-including Pikes Peak and Mount Washington.

I probably bought ten, new RM sets during the last 40 years for other cars I have owned. If you adjust them properly, they work forward and reverse, up and down.

It bugs me that there are "experts" when they don't even have a running car or don't have a set of RM brakes (or anything else). They are an "expert" because their friend told them what another friend said who another friend kind of heard about something.

They have sold hundreds of RM brakes from 1980s (1970s?) until now. And they are still selling them today. Ask the vendors.

PS- Norm, you are also correct about the hydraulic brakes. If there is a leak or break in a line and/or the fluid leaks out, then OMG!!! I have been in a car (non-Ford) that had a retro-hydraulic brake failure, but that is another story....

[KellyJons]

Wait, now I’m really confused…GGZ says the modern RM brakes work well in reverse “if you adjust them properly.”

GGZ, could you tell us how to make the modern Rocky Mountain brakes work perfectly in both forward and reverse?

If not, do these brakes come with complete instructions to guarantee that the owner can set them up properly? If so, that would be great.

Kelly

[Charlie B in N.J.]

Just as an aside the term "self energizing" wasn't invented here to pass on to new comers. Anyone that worked on drum brakes knows the term and the meaning. Primary shoe forward secondary shoe rearward and the action of the front shoe kicking the rear shoe back into the drum increased braking power AND although you probably didn't notice they had less power in reverse. Who remembers Chrysler Lockheed brakes with two half wheel cylinders to try to get that self energizing action with two solidly anchored shoes?

[Mark Chaffin]

I have the reproduction Rocky Mountain Brakes on several cars. They work just fine in forward and reverse. The key to good use is ensuring they act in conjuction with the stock transmission brake. Yes it is a pain in the butt to synchronize the two for optimal breaking but well worth it.

On a side note. We have been having difficulty obtaining these from the manufacturer who is experiencing health issues due to age. I fear, like some other products, the availability may soon be coming to an end.

[DanTreace]

Wait, now I’m really confused…GGZ says the modern RM brakes work well in reverse “if you adjust them properly.”GGZ, could you tell us how to make the modern Rocky Mountain brakes work perfectly in both forward and reverse?

If not, do these brakes come with complete instructions to guarantee that the owner can set them up properly? If so, that would be great.
Kelly

The instructions for R-M brakes state to also set the Ford tranny brake to work in conjunction when needed.

These external brakes, like the R-M with the larger 12" drum give extra stopping power as they give over 130 sq.in of friction surface compared the 8" tranny brake drum. These accessory brakes for the Ford, either R-M or AC, are just that, accessory assistance for stopping.

These external brakes work the same way, forward is the pressure made to the rotating durm to slow and stop it. Note the diagram, all the lbs. of force are applied at the leading edge of the forward drum by the design of the lever arm. That is the purpose of the accessory external brake, to add more stopping force.

With solely the Ford tranny brake, stopping distance is further, with the added accessory external brakes, stopping distance is reduced by a large margin.

However, the Ford tranny brake needs to be utilized in backing down on a grade, slowly, as you need that advantage of the tranny brake grabbing on the drive line. If you only have the external system hooked up, you can have only minimal rear stopping power.

With any backing in reverse, even on flat, the T steering is radically inefficient, and will rack the front wheels side to side with horrible control. Always reverse with care on flat or on a downward grade.

So, in summary, a proper setting of the R-M or other external brakes, requires too the proper setting of the std. Ford tranny brake.
And, important is the Ford internal rear hub or emergency brake shoes need to also be in proper setting. That is for parking, or starting the Ford to keep it from running away.

Best of all, with the R-M equalizer set up, when the emergency brake lever is pulled back, to engage the rear internal hub brake, it also applies the R-M external brakes, so you have very powerful parking on a grade too.

Have these R-M brakes on my Fords, and never any issues, as they are set to also use the Ford tranny brake too. Plus the internal hub shoes are the modern lined shoes also, very effective.

Just use the brakes as any antique car, carefully, and observe road conditions too.

In heavy rain, or driving in water, these external brakes can become less effective, but just by laying on the pedal for a way, it will dry out the external linings and bring back the stopping effectiveness.

IMO the R-M external brakes are good safety accessory to have on your T. Once you drive a T without, and then add the R-M accessory, you will feel more confident in stopping, esp. in a unexpected occurrence.

[KellyJons]

Thanks, Dan, and everyone else, for all the great information. Looks like maybe I was wrong to be unsure of RM brakes, if they can indeed be set up (in tandem with the stock braking system) to prevent the car from rolling backwards and causing an accident.

Some may disagree, but I think this short conversation has been of critical importance to the safety and well being of anyone who drives a Ford Model T. My initial impression is that there are many confusions surrounding the correct and effective set-up of the stock braking system and the addition of Rocky Mountain or any other accessory brakes. I am very grateful for the experts on this forum.

Kelly