Strange request

[rbishop26]

Altho I’m a member of the MTFCA and have a couple Model Ts, I have the opportunity to buy a 1912 Metz Model 22. As you can see from my name, I live in San Diego and the car is in Cedarville, New Jersey. As explained to me, the Metz is a very different car to drive, much different from a Model T, and should be looked at and ridden in before purchase. The owner has offered, even encouraged, me to have someone look at it and watch him start it (crank) and ride in it.
Is there anyone out there in New Jersey who, without going too much out of their way, would be willing to look at the car for me? Just watch him crank it to make sure it starts, and go for a ride to make sure it runs? I would very much appreciate it and am willing to compensate you.
Thank you for your consideration.

[jiminbartow]

Why don’t you have the seller shoot a real time video of the car with a friend. Have them do a walk around, video taping the inside and out, underneath, in the engine compartment, the interior, preparing it for starting, start it up, then with the friend shooting the video, take it for a drive with the friend video taping how it is driven using foot pedals, hand levers and instruments. That way, you can stop the video and zoom in on areas that interest you. Good luck. Jim Patrick

[CudaMan]

Here is a link to a video of a test drive of a (different) Metz:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yn32nYsGRZM&t=331s

[signsup]

Could you search affiliate clubs in NJ and reach out to them directly for a member who might assist? Or, perhaps the sellers is a member of a car club that might have some contacts for you? Any car museums in that area that might have volunteers that could assist for a donation to the museum? Any civic organizations like Rotary, Lions, Elks, Optimists? etc that might know of someone. Reaching out to this forum is a start, but the tip of the iceberg, IMO.

[TWrenn]

I'm too set in my ways!! I'll stick with the Model T!!

[Dave Young]

Me and Scott Sheppard live near Cedarville,NJ and can go take a look at the Metz next week. Send me the guys contact info and we’ll set that up. Text is best way to reach me. 606-289-0677. Dave Young

[jiminbartow]

I’ll bet parts are hard to come by. That would be a major consideration for me.

[rbishop26]

Thank you guys so much for your help and suggestions. I’m trying to set something up with Dave Young for next week.

[hull 433]

That's a beautiful car, Bob. You should have no problem at all.

The Metz engine is very similar to a Model T, to the extent that some parts are supposedly interchangeable. Its transmission famously has about three moving parts, maybe less. You cannot find a simpler car or one that is more fun or easier to drive.

The car in your photo is in very nice condition, neatly and decently finished. Whoever restored this car had a great eye. With a few Fords under your belt, a Metz is a piece of cake.

[George Mills]

While I've learned to drive just about anything that exists...driving a Metz 22 is totally different and NOT at all akin to a T.

For that experience, I'd recommend that you search around San Diego and see if someone can offer you a ride in theirs.

The friction drive is a bit unique, actually a marvel to see in operation. It's an infinitely variable transmission...think of a 78 RPM record and the stylus arm. 1 rev has lots of different circumference possibilities, infinitely so.

Chain drive is a bit of a simplification over a T so no reason to chat about that...it either has good sprockets, or worn sockets...

Back to the friction drive, there is a clutch - sort of- but it is more of a variable pressure plate that can go from not kissing, to having the friction material near mushroom on the disc. It has a throttle in the same place as a T and works in the same fashion...but its meant to be a bit of a governor'd task, the majority of stuff handled with the stick arc location (sets where the friction wheel is circumferencially with about 70 degrees of full stick travel, and where your foot puts the pressure plate pedal where needed (4 or 5 positions if I recall correctly). The friction material is actually just a huge really really thick brown paper sandwich cut in the round.

I think this is why the warning you heard about driving one first. Anything can be learned, but if you are going back and forth between T's and a Metz you will really need to develop a second sense about how to do things as it is all totally different.

Good luck

[Moxie26]

Interesting facts there. George... Would it be possible to message Dave Young and have some pointers and conversation?

[George Mills]

Bob,

I think Dave already has my number? Prob best if present owner shows him how that one behaves in a big parking lot? They had a 3rd party magneto, Bosch I believe and I would not remember how to set that for start/run..

[rbishop26]

Thank you George. That’s about 100% more info than I was able to find before. It has ranged from “oh, it’s a breeze to drive”, to “you’ll be sorry you bought it!”
With practice, I think I can adjust to the pedals and drive. My biggest concern is I’m 6’5” with 13 size feet. The pedals seem to be further apart than a T, but I don’t know about head clearance? Right now I’m changing between my wife’s automatic, my stick shift (30 years of driving), and my Ts. What’s one more shift pattern to learn, hey?
Haven’t been able to locate a Metz in San Diego or close by. The seller has been very open and honest about the challenges of driving a Metz! I’m open to any advice you all have, and very appreciative of it. Thank you.

[jiminbartow]

The transmission sounds like an interactive display I saw at Bellm’s Cars and Music of Yesteryear in Sarasota, FL many years ago. It consisted of a heavy steel flywheel-like disc with a leather lined shifter wheel that was controlled by a lever. The shifter wheel moved across the face of the flywheel from the edge of the disc to the center and every point in between. Once the shifter wheel passed the center point, the flywheel would revolve in the opposite direction, throwing the car into reverse. The flywheel maintained the same revolving speed, but as the shifter moved toward the center, where the rpm’s were higher, the car would go faster. As the shifter moved toward the edge where the rpm’s were lower, the car would go slower. Does that sound about right George?

IMG_8701.png (278.19 KiB) Viewed 6149 times

[Dave Young]

Bob, my monkey fingers mis-typed my phone number this afternoon. The number is 609-289-0677. I had looked a Metz a few years ago in Connecticut and found it to be a very interesting machine!

[rbishop26]

Hi Jim,
It was explained to me just the opposite, if I understood the owner and you correctly (and that’s a big IF).
He said it moved from the center to the outside of the disc. The closer it got to the outside, the faster it went. The outside of the disc spins faster than the center of the disc because it has to make the big circle in the same amount of time that the center disc travels a smaller distance. I don’t know if I made that clear? Once it passed over the outside edge of the disc, it was in reverse. I don’t quite understand how you use the lever to go faster without going over the edge?
And Dave, I sent you a new text with the new phone number.
Thank all of you immensely for your help!

[M.Sinclair]

I believe to put the car in reverse you could put the driven disk (disk to wheels) past the center of the driving(off engine) disk as the “direction” the driving disk is pushing switches

[Erik Johnson]

When I was around seven years old, I was a passenger in a 1913 Metz that belonged to a friend of my dad when something let go in the friction drive assembly - rattle, bang, crash and a trail of pieces on the street behind us. I remember it vividly even though it happened over fifty years ago.

When I was an adult, I asked my dad exactly what happened. He said that it was discovered that there had been a previous repair involving welding that wasn't done correctly (or maybe shouldn't have been done at all and a good, original replacement or a newly fabricated part should have been used instead) . Whatever did let go also cut the fuel line. My dad said his friend and I were lucky that the pieces shot toward the ground instead of flying up through the floorboards.

[nsbrassnut]

A couple of points to ponder from a former 1912 Metz owner.

I used to have a slightly mixed up 1912 Metz. Overall a fun car, but a few things to be aware of going in. The 1912 is a one year only model with different wheels and rear axle than the '13 up Metz. It was the first year of the 4 cylinder Metz, and guess what, like many first year models it had a few less than desirable features that were changed for 1913.

The wheels are designed to be quick dis-mountable and are actually reversable to change the track. The wheel center has a straight bore that slides over the hubs (both front and rear) that are mounted on the axle. Then the wheel is held on by a SINGLE bolt that goes through the hub in an off center position to act like a key to keep the wheel on the hub. Similar in general principle to the very early Ts. As a result, once there is a little wear on the wheel center or hub the wheel will wobble going down the road. And if the single retaining bolt falls out, or breaks the wheel can come right off. It very nearly happened to me when one retaining bolt broke and only half a bolt was holding the wheel on and the tension of turning was holding it in place. Very nearly lost a front wheel at speed.

And it has an odd rear wheel brake design that are built in the axle ends and rear hubs. The brake assemble a multi-disc friction brake designed on the principle of the T transmission multi-disc clutch. On mine the grooves were worn in the axle and wheel hub and the brake discs would not move properly to provide good brakes. Similar to what happens when the T transmission discs wear grooves in the drum. The previous owner of mine had installed a mechanical band brake on the jack-shaft that drove the chains to the wheels. Similar to the T, if a chain broke the brakes would be lost. And there is no back up emergency brake either.

On the fun side, the car is light and nimble, but flat out on mine was 33 mph. And it was a bit scary at that speed knowing the wheels and the poor brakes. Changing the drive sprockets on the jack-shaft would have allowed it to go faster, but I didn't get that far.

By the way, the shift lever travels in a quadrant with notches to provide fixed gear ratios. It's not entirely a "infinitely variable" transmission.

These features were changed in 1913. The wheel hubs were more conventional like Ts and the rear wheel brakes more like other period band brakes.

I sold mine to make room for another project. Otherwise it might still be in the garage.

If you can live with these idiosyncrocies, then you will be fine. But I would recommend a good inspection to see if these features are on this Metz and perhaps a test drive before making a final decision.

[BHarper]

Hello Bob,

I have been reading this thread with great interest because I own a 1914 Metz Model 22. I live in New Hampshire and am a bit far from New Jersey to look at the car which you are interested in and way too far from you to schedule a driving lesson.

Your understanding of "drive ratios" between the drive disk and the friction wheel is correct.

As you have likely discovered, the Metz has a shorter wheelbase than a Model T and the car is lighter, that lighter weight and a true 22 horsepower engine give the Metz a sprightly performance. They are fun to drive.

They are also a handful to operate. The pressure pedal does require varying its setting to change the pressure of the drive disk against the friction wheel. The pedal locks into place with a ratcheting feature to relieve the driver from having to keep the right foot on the pedal. To release the pedal you rock your shoe using the ball of your foot to disengage the ratchet.
The brake pedal (left foot) serves as the service brake AND the parking brake. You depress the pedal as far as it will go and set the ratchet (as with the pressure pedal) and that locks the rear brakes. When driving and you need to slow or stop, you depress the brake pedal using the ball of your foot to avoid ratcheting into a fixed position. You genuinely must be on your toes while driving a Metz.
Oh, there is no ignition advance lever because the magneto timing is fixed. The hand throttle is in the same location as on the Model T, but it is reversed: down is closed and up is open.

After a day of driving my Metz the Model T feels like a modern car.


We all offer to anyone who is considering the purchase of a Model T our opinions about correct parts and completeness. I will offer my two cents worth about the picture which you shared.

It does look very nice. I don't think that it is a 1912, but rather a 1913. Some of the most notable features of a '12 Metz are 14 spoke wheels and this car has 12 spoke, also the hubs are different from the later cars. The '12 cars have the (speed) control lever outside of the body and rising through a hole in the running board splash shield. The Prest-O-Light tank was introduced for the 1914 model year, the earlier cars used an acetylene generator. The '12s had an externally mounted "potato" horn and the later cars had a long trumpet like horn under the hood. Now, with all of that said, this car could have been built in 1912 as a 1913 model year; Metz introduced their new model year in September, just like Ford.

This car does have the engine undercover which is a necessary part of the cooling system. Many Metz cars are lacking this cover and without it the car will overheat. There should be a cover enclosing the "transmission" area; it protects the drive disk and the friction wheel. The chain covers are absent in the photograph. Many Metz cars are without the sheet metal covers which enclose the valve area and without the covers the engine looks like an early Model T "open valve" engine.

An ad for the 1912 Model 22:

The 1913 model year is different:

29314644_10212777239080191_2465895622629130240_n.jpg (76.57 KiB) Viewed 6018 times

And my 1914. The turtledeck was new for 1914 along with some "1914 Improvements" as touted in the advertisements bragging about winning the 1913 Glidden Tour.

[nsbrassnut]

Oops. A correction. Mine was a 1912 with all the problem features. The 1913 had the improvements.

The 1912 has the gear shift lever on the side and the later models 1913 up had the shift lever in the center. Quick way to tell them apart.

[rbishop26]

Bill, brassnut and George,
Thank you all so much for all the info. I wish I was closer so we could all sit down and talk about this. I would love to hear your conversation. All this info answers a lot of questions and scares me half to death at the same time. Would any of you be willing to answer a couple of other questions I have in a private message?
Altho I think the owner has been very honest and upfront about the condition and differences of the car (and he did the restoration), and encouraged me to find someone with more knowledge about the Metz to look at it and drive it. I’m going to copy Bill’s comments (with his permission) and send it to the owner for his info. Again, I think he has been very honest with me, maybe just not the first hand knowledge you 3 have.
Again, thank you all so much for your help.
Bob
San Diego, CA

[rbishop26]

Bill,
I’ve sent you an email for your permission to copy your post without your name.
Thank you for your help and advice.
Bob

[BHarper]

For those of you who are following Bob's Metz exploration and education, I have replied to his email and we are continuing our conversation.

The beat goes on.

Another image of my '14 Model 22 Torpedo Runabout

[nsbrassnut]

Hi Bob

Feel free to send a PM. I did save some scans of Metz literature and information before I passed it along with mine when it was sold.

Metz can be a lot of fun if you find a good one. But remember, it was targeted at a lower price point than a Ford and it shows in some ways.

Drive Safe

[rbishop26]

Thank you brassnut. Yours is one of the several posts I saved, concerned about the safety of the car because of all the posts. I’ve been emailing Bill Harper (post above) and told him I found the listing on Hemmings. He checked the photos on the listing and has pointed out a number of things that indicates it’s really more of a 1913 than ‘12, which is good safety-wise. I have a lot more faith in the car now. Dave Young and Scott Sheppard will kindly be looking at it next week so we’ll see.
My concern now is squeezing my 6’5”, 220# body, and size 13 shoes into it I have enough trouble with my Ts!
Thank you again, and all of the above posters, for all your help. I’ve had questions answered I didn’t even think to ask. Again, the owner has been very honest and upfront with me! I just am fortunate to have a group of Model T guys who together have a little more first hand experience that helps someone like me greatly. Thank you all again!

[OilyBill]

I understand there is a company in Indiana or Ohio, the "Paper Pulley Company" which can still supply the friction drive pulleys for Metzes. They specialize in different pulleys, but they have all the equipment for doing Metzes, and have been supplying them for over 100 years.
I hope they are still in business. IF they are, I suggest you get a spare replacement while you can, as should any other Metz owner.

I really like Metzes and would like to find a "Metz Plan Car", which was sold with the premise that you would send in a payment each month, and they would ship you out that month's set of parts for your car, thus you eventually get a complete motorcar. This was on earlier Metzes, I think about 1909 or 1910. The engine on the "Plan Car" was only a two cylinder. What they were actually doing is liquidating the bankrupt Metz company by selling the parts kits, and when they were gone, they had cleared all the debts, and had enough profit to go into regular production of this "Bigger, Faster, More Modern Metz!" like the one you are thinking of buying.

I would LOVE to find a set of instructions for a Metz Plan Car! It would be cool to do a restoration based on the original plan, doing each group of parts in order. I understand that with the Metz Plan Car, the engine itself was the last item to be shipped.

[Model T Mark]

I have a plan car complete minus the steering column. It is partially restored now. I will get to finishing it some day. I’ll try to post a few pictures this weekend. This is a neat thread to read through.

[rbishop26]

Hey OilyBill,
I read about the Metz plan car too when I was trying to find more info about the Metz. It was the first “installment” car. Except instead of getting the whole car and making installment payments on it, you made a payment and they sent you a crate of parts in the order they were put together. When you saved up enough money to make another payment, they sent you another crate. I believe there were 14 in all, and the last was the engine with a lot of parts interchangeable with a Model Ts. Sounds like fun!
I’ll look up the company you mentioned. Thank you.

[Moxie26]

Dave and Scott.... Good luck on your Metz trip.

[rbishop26]

I had to pass on buying the Metz. My daughter was able to find a non-operational 1913 outside of San Diego that the owner allowed me to sit in this morning. My 6’5” body (all legs!) wouldn’t fit under the steering wheel. For anybody who might be interested in it, it’s listed on Hemmings as 1912 Metz. The seller could not be nicer, more honest, or more upfront about the car. I would recommend you see it in person and drive it.
I want to thank everyone who posted above with tips, info, and advice. That’s what’s great about the MTFCA, and this wasn’t even a Model T!

[Dave Young]

Scott Sheppard and I did go to see and drive this car earlier in the week and I felt it most prudent to advise Bob against the purchase. The little car is an absolute jewel and runs beautifully. The owner had rescued this car in shambles years ago and spent far more than the asking price in its flawless restoration. It truly belongs in a museum. I personally have run/driven pretty much every imaginable piece of equipment, except for aircraft, that men can be exposed to during their lives and consider myself an operator. This little bugger was absolutely terrifying to drive. The fact that uncoupling the engine from the driveline requires a series of exact motions below your ankle makes crashing highly likely. I’d much rather pull a wide load through Manhattan during rush hour than mess with a Metz again. The car is an adorable novelty. The current owner has driven it ONCE at an abandoned airport for maybe a half mile. Neat car, for sure. Not something to use on the road.

[rbishop26]

Thank you Dave and Scott for going out of your way to help me. Altho this was what Dave communicated to me, in addition to my personal experience, I didn’t feel it was my place to attribute that advice to them without their permission.
Again, I want to thank everyone who posted for their help and advice, especially Dave, Scott, Bill, and brassnut for their first hand experience! And thank you to the Model T forum.

[nsbrassnut]

Yes, Metz can be an interesting drive if you are not used to them. I took a friend for a ride. A converted street rodder now with stock Ts. He liked to drive on the quick side no matter what he was driving.

First time down the road in the Metz and he wanted off before I even got up to 20 mph. And never got him on it again.

[EJL]

I have a Metz I find it no harder to drive than any other car of that era. I will say they are quick.