Choosing a Body Style for CA DMV?

[Al Meadows]

Grab your registrations and let's talk.

My Grandfather gave me my car back in the sixties and my Dad helped me register it back then. Referencing pictures in books we called it a 1922 roadster (to get the "pay one-time only fee horseless carriage plates"). The "pay only once" DMV plan lasted but a few years. Later on, I found it was a touring car with the back half gone. It was somewhat of a bitsa car but I settled at 1920 which made most parts period correct and modified the rest including finding a back half for the car.

Now I am trying to correct the DMV pink and registration to reflect those changes. It turned out to be a project. The DMV required a CHP officer to verify engine # and characteristics of a typical 1920 touring car to my car sitting in front of him. We used my copy of "From Here to Obscurity" book. All went well until he got to body description. He said closest box to check was 4door. That's not it. Other choices were Roadster, convertible, sedan or 3door runabout (picure of Pinto). No touring available. The year was easy to change.

What body style do you touring car owners have on your documents, particularly in CA? Maybe convertible? I might be back to "roadster". The only other choice is "All other autos". There's no provision for write in. I must check a box.

Thanks
Al

[TXGOAT2]

Dontcha love bureaucracy? Call it a convertible. It's not a roadster, sedan, pickup, etc. It IS "convertible", so check that box, and be thankful it isn't a Cloverleaf.

[Southfork Creek]

I told DMV my 1915 roadster was a 1-door and my 15 touring was a 3-door. And I insisted I was correct. That really confused them!!

[Scott_Conger]

It's a 4 door

have a beer

don't worry about it

[John kuehn]

You said your Dad registered it in the 60’s. The key Is to get it registered!! Which ever is easiest to do and it’s pretty close do it that way. You may not get it exactly right as you want it. You may wind up causing the DMV to be more confused by trying to give them more information. It will depend on who you talk to at your DMV.
Here in Texas there is no specific way on the Texas forms that I know of. It’s either 2dr or 4 dr. That’s been my experience. My Coupe is a 2dr and that’s it. And it has a good title and registered. Same for my 1919 Roadster. Don’t worry about it and enjoy your T!

[speedytinc]

If its already registered, dont mess with it!! If it was registered but lost. Do a statement of facts. You are only opening pandoras box! If you are trying to straighten it out for a future buyer, they will understand, especially if the are among us suffering here.

My 20 touring is "SD". My 23 is "TR" My 27 roadster PU is "CP" This is a blue tag. I hated the idea of this originally, but it allows me to change motors @ will. No motor # reference on the title. I bought it with a 22 motor anyway. Could have ben a big mess. 22 PU?

Let sleeping dogs lye.

[Oldav8tor]

Michigan calls my 1917 Touring a convertible. They also call my Willys Army Jeep a two-door, even though it has no doors.....

[Norman Kling]

My 26 Touring is called a 4DR on the registration.
Norm

[KWTownsend]

It was a touring car that was converted to a pick-up so, it is, by definition, a convertible.

Just be happy that is their only issue!

: ^ )

[Professor Fate]

Leave it to the pointed heads at the DMV to screw up even the simplest of things while being rude.
I just titled my '26. And the DMV called a touring car a convertible. Go figure...

[TRDxB2]

If you really think about it there is little value NOW in trying to make a State's Title somehow match a vintage car. Definitions match current production styles, use VIN numbers etc. SUV's can be Titled as as an SUV but can get either passenger or truck plates. How many people can explain the difference between a Coupe, Sedan, or Cabriolet ; Hatchback, SUV or station wagon; what is a Roadster; what do you call a vehicale with a retractable hard top; coupe or convertible?

The purpose of a Title is to provide proof of ownership of a vehicle. A person can provide an ID and do a signature match, all a vehicle has is Make, Model, Year, Type and Identification Number. Pictures help - if you would show a 1915 ad of a Model T Roadster to the DMV inspector to compare to your vehicle and they were close, I'm sure he/she would agree. They don't car if it isn't "authentic".

What is important is documentation at time of sale, the history of change for the vehicle, doesn't matter if its 100 years old or 2. If the Title of a Model T said 1914 or 1915 would you trust it to be that? Proving what it is to the DMV is what every it is and the story you give to explain it. The more detailed you get the more it will fall into the category of "custom vehicle", "street rod" or something less attractive.
"let sleeping dogs lie"

[John kuehn]

Very well said TRDxB2! It’s always best to never assume the DMV’s know anything about old or antique cars. Remember most of these folks are 2-3 generations removed from cars over 50 years old. It’s a different generation antique car owners have to deal with since they think an “old car” is something built in the 70’s. Food for thought.

[Sarikatime]

I just finally got my 15 touring registered. Been to the DMV, in Arizona they have to be different and called the place MVD. Spent over two month of taking the car on the trailer here and there and back again, finally just allowing the inspector to tell me what year and model he is going to call it.
The girls at the counter all came out to the car cause they couldn’t understand why the touring only had three doors. They made a huge whatever about the missing body number tag that was supposed to be on the dashboard. They didn’t like firewall. Then I had an extra I.D. tag, stamped the engine number on it and riveted it to the dashboard. Those girls got all upset that that is a new tag and it can be changed out for a different tag any time. I told them that the fenders, seats and the motor can also be changed out very fast, so they threw me out for beeping a smartass. Zero sense of humor. So I had to make an appointment with a vehicle inspector who looked at the car, verified the engine number, did not look at the data plate, wrote down year and model T and told me to go and get the paperwork’s done, get a bond and insurance and come back for a license plate. I was lucky, it only took ten years off my life expectancy. Frank

[Henry K. Lee]

Cheaper to move and enjoy a simple life! Will never understand how some of our states with "State Employees" have to act like damn Nazis. I will stay with the good people, state employees too!

Humbled Hank

[Craig Leach]

Remember DMV, IRS, DHS, FBI, FEMA, DES & CPS all have a moto. We Are From the Government We are Here to Help You. To qoute a Monty Python show " run away run away" Sorry got caught up in the moment. I once spent three weeks getting a title for a model T and have no love for governmment Bureaucracy. Thier pay check should be 700 pages long and have all our names on it so they know who pays them. Sorry I'll try to stay off the soap box.
Craig.

[sweet23]

When registering my touring car in North Carolina, I noticed that there was no listing for touring car on the paper work. With the right helpful gal at the DMV she just had to make a phone call to have someone tell her how to insert the word "Touring" into the body style listing. Her only request was to see a photo of the car. Not that it had anything to do with the license or title, she had just never registered a car that old before and wanted to see it.

[Farmer J]

I’ve done all the titles for the MTFCA museum vehicles thru the Indiana DMV and over 10 of my own that are not well known brands. I’ve learned to not argue or correct them, but to accept any description that might describe the car. Just getting a clear title with a vin# that matches a number somewhere on the car has been a blessing sometimes.

[david_dewey]

When I registered my '15 touring we called it a 3 door car, because it is! There was no photo to go by. It is a shame you have started this proceedure, as the title was perfectly good before! Unless the car is stolen, the body style question would not ever come up. You could try for a "Body style change" as this was, at one time an option.
Nowadays I use a registration service--usually about $200 expense, but the paperwork sales through, no hours in line, arguing (and losing) with the clerk and all the stress that goes with it. Getting your T through CA DMV is a matter of chance--it really depends own who you get behind the window.

[Susanne]

CA DMV used to allow "Touring" on the title, about the same time you got your R&W plate as a "Roadster" - then again, it was all free form, done by hand, and not via a mindless, faceless computer mainframe in Sacramento...

It's a Convertable in current non-descript descriptors... true, it's only a 3 door, but that would make it a hatchback, which would be like a rear entry tonneau, whicn, called a tonneau, they would likely want to know how many tons the Tonneau is... so they could charge you for weight.(BTW - if you register your Roadster Pick-up as a Pick-up, they will consider it a commercial vehicle and want you to pay weiht fees... gotta love 'em.)

The way to describe it - Front Seat, Back Seat... Top goes up, top goes down. Convertible.

[Wayne Sheldon]

There are some body style terms with which I do have "issues". People should be able to understand that a "touring car" and a "sedan" are not the same thing. And the same holds true for coupes and roadsters. And they need to realize what the difference is. All too often people ask questions and get bad answers because they have read blogs or other modern day discussions by people that know nothing yet profess to be experts! They INSIST that they have a sedan when what they really have is a touring car, and all the answers they get are completely wrong!
Just last week on the AACA forum, someone new insisted he had a touring car and wanted help with replacing his door locks. It took some effort to straighten it out. However, hopefully, it now looks as though we are working in the right direction with his questions.
As far as the DMV is concerned? I don't care a lot what they call the car? As long as it is an antique and therefore exempted from modern rules it cannot possibly conform to. While I do not really like touring cars, runabouts and roadsters being called a "convertible"? In the model T era, "convertible" had a different meaning when it came to automobiles. Today, it is a mostly post-WW2 broad term for any car on which the top folds down. In that sense, it is not a wrong term for our antiques on which the top also folds down. If they okay my runabout as a convertible? I will be happy as a the proverbial clam!

[kmatt2]

I checked the current California State DMV vehicle VIN verification form on line. The current form under automobile body type codes does not have Touring but it does have Runabout 3 door Ford, code is 3D. The code for Roadster is code RD. By the way most of my Model T’s having been California titled over 20 years ago are titled as Sedan 2 door. code 2D, except for the 1926 coupe I got a few years ago which is as Coupe, code CP. If your Model T is pre 1926 and a USA car then code 3D should work for California. The California DMV form is form REG 31 rev date 10/2018. Another California body code option for a Model T Ford could be code LS which is for Low Speed Vehicle, I am just kidding on using that code LS. Your Ford Pinto would be Hatchback 2 DR and would be code 2H like a Chevy Vega hatchback would also be.

[jsaylor]

My 21 Touring that I registered in California in 1969 shows "Tour" in the body style box.
Another car, 1929 Model A Roadster Pickup, that was my father-in-Laws was titled "RDSTMDLA in 1952.
I am sure the forms have changed over the years. Probable best to go with Convertible as others have said.

[Steve Jelf]

Cheaper to move and enjoy a simple life!

Some legislatures like to make vehicle registration a nightmare of Byzantine complexity. Others are busy ruining their states in other ways.

[Al Meadows]

Thank you all for your thoughts on this matter. The main point seems to be "Why did you mess with the registration in the first place?". It was in early 2020 and since I had gone to such lengths to make my car correct in every way, I thought the title should accurately reflect this. My OCD got the better of me. DMV offices were closed so all correspondence was by mail. After 6 months of trying to resolve via mail, phone calls and even a professional DMV negotiator who also gave up, no charge, I contacted them again asking that we just put everything back like it was. I received a copy of my original request again with instructions on filling out. There was no going back. Now I see that few members place any great importance on how DMV describes their car. Lesson learned.

Having driven the car on National tour and around locally with expired tags this past year with no consequence and California's compassion for criminals I feel empowered to cross out the CHP's "4D' and insert "Convertible", probably the best fit. It's a big box. The officer thought 4D the best fit and I wasn't aware of other choices at the time. I promise a brief update if anything else ever happens.

Thanks again for the swift responses. It was two years ago I inquired about the state of my top bows and how they should fit. All the help I received resulted in my touring top finally complete in 2019.

Al

[Jeff Hood]

One of my T's has a Martin-Parry "Canopy Express" body which is basically a pick-up with a roof over the bed and canvas side and rear roll-up curtains. When I went to register it, the DMV people didn't know what to put for the description. I suggested pick-up truck. They disagreed because a pick-up doesn't have a roof. "Why does it have a roof?" I told them that it would originally have the roll-up sides, and they said,"Oh, it's a van!" So now it's a van, they could have called a lunar lander, I just wanted license plates!

As for the engine number, many DMV employees do not know, and will not accept an engine number. It takes a lot of talking and convincing, and talking to a lot of supervisors, etc. They want to see a frame number. I have four Model T's, and none of them are pristine factory originals, and at least two are assembled from parts of various years but represent the "year" that they are registered under. All four have had engines replaced at some point, and I realized that none of them had a number anywhere that matched the DMV paperwork! If and of them were to be stolen, or if I were to be stopped for a "verification" because someone else's car had been stolen, I could be out of luck! So, even though it isn't "correct" and probably not "legal" for me to do, all of my cars now have the number that is on the paperwork stamped on the right frame-rail under the floorboard.

[david_dewey]

Jeff,
One of my long-term projects is a M-P like yours. Mine was a complete car left out to rot. It was on a '26 chassis and there are M-P pieces to mate to the later hood. The guy I got it from wanted to keep the chassis, so I finally found a late chassis (with the bowed front axle even) for it. But back to the issue at hand;
Amazingly I "discovered" frame numbers on all my Ts, even the '16, on the right rail where Ford put them on later. No lousy blue & silver self-sticking VIN decals on my cars! The DMV clerks don't know when Ford started stamping frames, so these numbers work, as there book states "right frame rail by motor mount." Sad to say, Ford continued this on the Model A, but it's hidden under the splash shield, so you have to lift the body to find it--however I "discovered" that some were also stamped on the bottom of the frame too! Simplifies things.
As to how different one clerk can be from another; decades ago I had a 1946 "non-Ford" car with a cracked engine block. I replaced the block, and as the registration used the engine number, I went to the local office to update the registration. Well, they wanted to see the old engine IN the car, having it around wasn't good enough. The VIN number plate on this car was screwed to the inside front door pillar. Clerk said, "why is it scratched up? And why is it only screwed on, should be riveted!" Well, gee, in all the years since the car was new, I don't know how it got scratched up. They wanted me to post a bond and pay extra fees for new registration. OK, I'll go back and put the old engine back in and tow it up here was my story to them--ain't gonna happen! I went to another town, the clerk came out to verify the numbers. "Plate looks pretty good for it's age, and is held on with screws, correct for this year; I can't read the new motor number, would you read it to me?" "Let's go back in the office and finish this up" Back in the office, "How much are the fees?" "Oh no fees, we're just changing from engine number to VIN number, you paperwork should be in the mail soon, here's your temporary papers." OK, that probably wouldn't happen without fees nowadays, but that shows you how different your experience can be.
Another time I was registering my '25 T with YOM plates--which to a bit as my plate number started with a "C" so they thought it was commercial--"No, Commercial plates have COM after the number for this year" Once again, to avoid that horrid local office I went to a neighboring town, and we were all done except I didn't have a"proof of insurance" card for the car and the insurance company was back east and closed by that time. "No problem, here's your paperwork, just go into any office and show them your proof card and they will complete it, all the fees are paid." So I went to the local office with the card, thinking "no problem!" I should have known better, they figured out some way to charge me more money, even charging me for the little metal tabs they send for the modern stickers to go on the license plate holder since the YOM plates don't have space for them. "Replacement Plate" fees they claimed! I paid the ransom and left!!!

[Steve Jelf]

So, even though it isn't "correct" and probably not "legal" for me to do, all of my cars now have the number that is on the paperwork stamped on the right frame-rail under the floorboard.

I think you're safe. It's very unlikely that any of the DMV folks know that wasn't always part of Model T production. People unschooled on Model T's tend to assume that whatever they see on a T is original.

[TRDxB2]

Gotta say it again. The purpose of a car title is for proof of ownership not proof of make, model & year. That being said there needs to be some resemblance between what vehicle is described on the title and the physical appearance of the car. Its best to just meet the minimum requirements of your State, be friendly with the @MV agent remember they are not as knowledgeable out antique or vintage cars so don't try and teach them. Its likely they don't want to know. So find a strip of copper or aluminum and stamp your engine numbers on it and place it where your State expects it to be. Have a vintage ad that matches the shape of your car and displays the year you want your car to be on it as proof of vehicle year, done!
The tag looks "period correct" (numbers ) Zoom in on the ads Its a (Runabout) Convertible

[Al Meadows]

I just want to update all on the final outcome of my registration issue described in my original post and I want to thank everyone for your replies. They all varied in means to a solution and I now realize I should have never attempted to partner up with the State of California to rectify such insignificant details. That just can't end well.

To remedy my situation, I chose "Convertible" as the body style of choice from their checklist, crossed out 4D on the CHP form and wrote in the word "Convertible" next to it. I then mailed all 4 pages of documents to Sacramento for response. In 2 weeks my docs were returned with no explanation. OK. Forget this mail thing. I make an appointment at the local DMV office and bring in all my paperwork. After much discussion at all office levels, it was concluded that my crossing out the 4D on the CHP doc negated the entire process and they would need to see my vehicle and perform another inspection. No way! So I called back the CHP office, tearfully explained what I had done and what I wanted and without hesitation they understood. I picked up my new form amended as I requested the next day. I returned to the DMV with all paperwork plus the revised vehicle inspection form and after a great deal of additional inter-office discussion, I finally received my corrected pink slip and vehicle registration with current tag. All that was necessary was to pay last years fee, this years fee and $130 in fines and penalties. Complain? This is California. I wrote the check and exited quickly promising never to do such a thing again.

Lesson learned - $392 would have bought a lot of neat stuff at Lang's.

Al

[dobro1956]

In Arkansas it is pretty easy to get titles. But I did register a 1908 Reliable Dayton highwheeler with a serial number 12. It is the only one we had trouble with. The computers would not recognize the 2 didget number. It would just freeze up and not go any further. The main office in Little Rock had to have the computer software reprogrammed to accept my 2 didget number. Even tho Arkansas did not have titles till 1911, I still had to get a title to be able to export it to Australia.

[jsaylor]

I registered my 21 Touring in 1970 under the original California Horseless Carriage plate. "Body type Model" is still showing "Tour". Options might have been different back them and carried over.

[m_p_dean@yahoo.com]

Leave it the way it is! No states make mistakes, therefore they have very poor processes for fixing mistakes. Pursuing this path of having the state change information regarding the car can only lead to heartache and expense.

[John Codman]

My 26 Touring is called a 4DR on the registration.
Norm

So is my 27 touring car. (Florida, but Massachusetts simply said "Sedan" without specifying the number of doors).

[tdump]

Wow, when I took my T pickup I worked so hard on to the dmv for it's inspection, they said they would be calling it a replica, Which the title says it now, But once i found out from our local club pres that it would be ok for touring with the club with that on the title, I just told the inspector next time I saw him to call it a 1982 Ford Granada if that would help me make it legal to drive!

[Loftfield]

When registering a 1911 Maxwell recently purchased, I was asked how many doors does it have. I replied, "none". The nice lady then asked, "How many doors would it have if it had doors". Answer: "Two". Matter fixed!

[John kuehn]

Leave it the way it is. If you have a good title show the DMV this is what the car is and that’s it! Do not go into a long story about the car. Almost always the problems that come with getting an antique car registered or getting a title is with the DMV. Most of the people working there don’t have any idea what Model T specifics are and if you insist on wanting a title with a clear explanation and precise you will wind up having a big long lasting headache.

Be very happy with whatever is on the title and get it registered with what’s on it. Very few if any of DMV folks are still around that have a knowledge of old antique cars. If you find someone that has common sense you are very lucky and go with that person. Good luck!

[gustavomay]

Your car has an interesting history! With the DMV options being so limited, I'd say "convertible" is your best bet if it fits your car's setup now.
But, if anyone else is dealing with hassles, DMV States is a great site to quickly find what you need. I find it super helpful for me to navigate through different DMV websites.

[Kaiser]

Nothing to do with a car but, had to renew my passport a couple years back, when i went to collect the new passport at the county office i noticed they spelled my name wrong. I told the lady at the counter and asked her could she please correct the mistake, she told me she could not as it was not allowed to change personal data in a passport, it being an official state document. I told her that she or someone else had made a mistake at the renewal and it should be corrected, she insisted it was now official and could and would not be changed. Long story short it took almost three months and a lot of legal correspondence and money to have it corrected.
Lesson learned : if government officials mess something up, it is your problem and you have the legwork to do to correct the mistake, i guess that is the same worldwide

[signsup]

According to Georgia DMB, this is my convertible.

[jsaylor]

My 1921 Touring that was registered in California in 1970 with Horseless Carriage Plates, shows Body Type - Tour.

[Original Smith]

What do you expect in California? Everything is a mess from the governor on down. WTF!

[John Codman]

Massachusetts had my '27 Touring Car as a "4-dr", Florida has it as a "sedan." I don't care one way or the other.

[John kuehn]

Reagan said something like this : we’re from the government and we are here to help. Uhhh don’t think so!!!

[MarkS]

I bought my Model T touring in 2001, knowing next to nothing about these cars (like the engine numbers are typically used for registration). To register it in California with horseless carriage plates at the DMV, I had to first take it to a Highway Patrol (CHP) office for an inspection. I made an inspection appointment, loaded the car on a trailer the evening before and took a day off work. It turns out that day was 9/11 2001, so that morning I got a phone call from CHP saying all appointments were canceled as all law enforcement was on high alert. A few weeks later I took it to the local CHP office, where an officer looked it over, wrote down the body number from the plate on the firewall and told me to wait while he went inside. A few minutes later he came back and said he had called somebody that knows about these cars and confirmed that the number was consistent with a 1915 Ford Model T, gave me some paperwork which I then took to the DMV. They listed the body type as SD (sedan, I assume) and gave me new plates. The next person that tries to register it will have to deal with the body number vs engine number issue!

[speedytinc]

The next owner, if he's smart will leave as is.

My 27 roadster PU came Ca blue tag. (random assigned #)
I didnt like it, but knew better than to rock the boat.
The engine was a '21. What a mess that could have been.
As it turned out, I have had 3 different motors in the truck. No issue with motor #'s
My registration calls it "CP" Coupe?

As far as title & resale, I think everyone understands government licensing bureaucrats are the problem, not the car.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

I let the Sec. of State office, (DMV), call it whatever they want, as long as I get my title.