Did I Fry My Starter?

[signsup]

Started and drove fine last weekend. Still on trailer and I went to start it up and nothing from Foot starter switch. Checked cables to switch and they felt like they were touching each other. Removed switch to install new one and noticed the little rubber flap that seperates the terminals on the old switch was pinched underneath one of the cable and it feels torn. Perhaps my two cables were touching each other? But, Wouldn't my starter be engaging all the time?
With old switch out, I touched my two cables , one from the positive battery and one to the starter to each other got sparks, but no bendix throw. Wouldn't bypassing the switch and touching the two cables together get a reaction out of the starter? I got nothing.

Any direction appreciated. I'll hang up and listen. It's a 27 engine. All other electrical accessories like horn and siren and ignition switch work.

[DanTreace]

Without the foot switch being depressed, no heavy positive current to the starter motor even with both of the cables suspected (?) maybe or not, touched together, the switch remains open if they don’t touch.

Brief touch of those cables off the switch won’t pass enough current to run the motor, that was the spark. Starter needs lots of current.

Investigate the starter , could be the Bendix is locked. Or could be depleted current of the battery that isn’t enough to start, but can honk horn or siren.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

Seems like maybe a bad starter switch. Touching the cables together and seeing sparks would be normal. Did you just tap the cables together momentarily, see sparks, and release them? If so, try touching the cables together firmly, for at least a second, and see if the starter reacts. Or, better yet, run a jumper cable from your positive battery terminal, directly to the starter terminal.

[Moxie26]

How old is your 6 volt battery?..... Take to. a. battery sales representative for a load test...... Is positive battery cable terminal metal touching battery holder to ground out?.... Defective generator cutout showing discharge on ammeter after key and lights are turned off?

[signsup]

New battery and all other accessories work directly off it. Yes, I touched the two cables together and got lots of sparks and backed off, I didn't want to fuse anything or melt anything together. The jumper cable sounds like a safer approach to me. I have the old starter switch and one off my shelf that I will have my son check with a volt or amp meter to see if the old switch is toast and the other one will work.
I'm relieved to hear that the sparking but no engagement does not necessarily mean a bad starter.
Fingers crossed. I'll report back.

But, while I have you. On my military 6v vehicles, I add a starter solinoid into the circuit before the starter switch to ease the shock to the switch. I see the vendors sell 6v and 12v solinoids and one says it can be wired to a button and start with a button on the dash and take the switch out of the equation. Another forum member likes the button on the solinoid to use as an emergency bypass if the starter switch goes bad. But I'm visualizing the solinoid being wired downstream from the switch to act as a bypass and upstream of the switch to act as a buffer. Anyone run a solinoid on their starter cars?

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

But, while I have you. On my military 6v vehicles, I add a starter solinoid into the circuit before the starter switch to ease the shock to the switch. I see the vendors sell 6v and 12v solinoids and one says it can be wired to a button and start with a button on the dash and take the switch out of the equation. Another forum member likes the button on the solinoid to use as an emergency bypass if the starter switch goes bad. But I'm visualizing the solinoid being wired downstream from the switch to act as a bypass and upstream of the switch to act as a buffer. Anyone run a solinoid on their starter cars?

Yes. A lot of people run solenoids. I have one on my Speedster. Works great.

[signsup]

Solinoid wired into circuit between battery and starter switch? That's how I do it on my other vehicles.

But, not good news on starter. Both old and new switch check out OK. I tried the jumper cable trick and get lots of sparking at the battery terminal but not even a clink at the starter. In the morning, I'll unstrap it from the trailer, spread the chocks and see if I can rock it back and forth and determine if my bendix is jammed. Or, I'll pull the bendix cover and examine it. My previous 1917 would jam the bendix every time that was most difficult to fix like car shows, displays, etc. It never did it in the garage at home.

I'll report back tomorrow. But I'll get a solinoid and wire it in before I reinstall my starter switch.

Fingers crossed.

[Moxie26]

If you cannot hand crank the engine with the wheels on the ground that Bendix is jammed to the flywheel

[signsup]

Yeah...not good news. Put car in neutral and hand crank goes all the way around, so not engaging stuck starter bendix. Don't see a need to remove bendix cover at this time. Both starter switches have continuity but I guess I can put one back in, connect up and charge up the battery and see what happens.
Otherwise, it looks like removing starter and taking to the shop.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

Yeah...not good news. Put car in neutral and hand crank goes all the way around, so not engaging stuck starter bendix. Don't see a need to remove bendix cover at this time. Both starter switches have continuity but I guess I can put one back in, connect up and charge up the battery and see what happens.
Otherwise, it looks like removing starter and taking to the shop.

Have you tried the jumper cable?

[signsup]

Yes on jumper cable attempt. Sparking but no action at starter, not even a click. While I'm putting a different starter switch in the car, I'm going to put a charger on the battery. Maybe, as was suggested, enought juice to run horn and siren and create sparks, but not enough to get reaction out of starter. I'm going to grind my ring terminal ends down a little as well to make sure they do not rub against each other at the switch and make sure the rubber flap between terminals is protecting them.
My battery box is on the running board, so one cable is coming in at a side angle and the other cable is going straight forward to the starter, so the cable ends are not laying side by side on the switch. I'll pay lots of attention to them this time.

Fingers crossed...I'll report back later today.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

I'm going to grind my ring terminal ends down a little as well to make sure they do not rub against each other at the switch and make sure the rubber flap between terminals is protecting them.

What kind of starter switch are you using?? A Model T switch does not have a "rubber flap between terminals", nor are the terminals spaced so closely that the cable ends could have a chance to touch each other,

[RajoRacer]

The new available "tractor" switches have a small rubber flap between the terminals.

[Moxie26]

Signsup.... Going back about 15 years or so. I did use Mr. Reagan's voltage regulator. I would go on several trips only to return home using my headlights. And if it was very late I would shut down completely and leave the car outside in the carport to cool down before putting in the garage. Using that voltage regulator I was very hopeful at first that I would no longer have anymore battery charging problems, but,... And re-starting that cold engine , the starter would not engage due to a exhausted battery. At that time I was using headlight bulbs with traditional filaments along with the tail light...... Since Mr. Reagan's voltage regulator had its problems and no longer is in existence, what are you using on your engine to recharge your battery ?..... Today, I am using LED bulbs and also a quality 6 volt generator and regulator from www.modeltstarters.com. ........ Did you have an opportunity to check out your 6-volt battery for a load test, and how old is your battery?.... And are you using the proper gauge cables for your 6-volt system?.... Pictures would be appreciated of your cables.

[John Codman]

Don't forget the ground side of the starter circuit.

[signsup]

Here is a pic of the two starter switches I have. Identical, but do not know if Model T or tractor switch. Both have rubber flap in between posts.
And, after two days of getting close to the ledge, it turned out to be low voltage on the battery. Charged battery today while running errands and reconnected original switch and it starts as before.
Never occured to me that the starter is a "go" "no go" thing. I"m used to slow starters or clicking or something when battery is low. To have the horn and siren work and the coils buzzing but not even a click on the starter is new to me.

But, looks like dodged bullet and learned something new so all is right with the world. Thanks to all who took the time to comment.

[DanTreace]

Good to have your report, and that the battery was the culprit


That footswitch is the modern reproduction, which uses a tractor type push switch.


Here is the original Ford design of the later footswitches.

And the guts inside, a simple flex bar that makes contact to the terminals when the button is pressed. The originals do get worn over time, a lot of juice goes when starting, reason enough to never hold down the footswitch for a long period, and also, with long cranking over the starter motor can overheat too. A good tuned T motor will fire over with a brief push of the switch.

[Allan]

The flex bar does look simple, but there is more to it than meets the eye. First it is laminated. That allows it to flex more, each lamination is free to flex as an individual piece. Multiple leafs allow a heavy current to be delivered.
Then there is the material used in the leafs. It is beryllium steel. Very tough and very springy. This helps the switch function well. The combined spring action of each leaf makes the break between contact on the terminals and off again really positive. This disconnect is also aided by the return spring on the foot plunger. I believe this is why many of the repop switches fail, that and the poor construction of the switch body.

Allan from down under.

[Moxie26]

There has been confusion on the correct battery cable size. 6. Volt systems use a 2/0 size copper cable. It is thick enough to properly carry the amperage needed for a strong starter. 12. Volt systems may use a number two size battery cable which is smaller in diameter and is able to carry less amperage. When used on 6-volt systems, problems will occur. Above all, 6 volt battery/generator systems are really mislabeled because they work more on amperage not voltage