I finally bought a T!

[SB Nelson]

I've been following the forum off and on for a few years gaining knowledge? and have finally pulled the trigger and bought my "first" Model T, a 1919 roadster. It's an older restoration (1980's) that runs (kinda), drives, and stops (almost). It definitely needs some TLC. It appears to be mostly correct for the year, other than the wood firewall has been replaced with a metal one. But, I do have a question. It has a January of 1919 engine number, and I was under the understanding that a starter was an option beginning in 1919. This car doesn't have a starter, nor is there any provision for one on the transmission cover. But didn't all engines by then have a mounting provision for a starter whether or not one was installed at the factory? Or, do I possibly have an earlier transmission cover? I'm sure I'll have many more questions as I dig further into this thing. Who knows what I'll find?

[Tom VanMeeteren]

Steve, welcome aboard. You will find lots of information and help on this forum site. Your T looks great and like you mentioned, just a little TLC is needed.

[TXGOAT2]

I see a '53 lurking nearby.....

[John kuehn]

Steve welcome to the forum! As a new T owner be sure you get the Ford T service book that’s available from the T parts suppliers.

To help you answer T questions about the on going changes that occured from 1917 to 1925 go to the home page on the MTFCA website and then go to resources. From there go to the old version of the Encylopedia. There you can find all the answers to your T questions when the ongoing changes that occured with Model T’s. Remember more than a few T parts in the 17-25 years would interchange so it’s not surprising to see that done on Model T’s that have been restored.
But do be aware that T owners through out the years updated their T’s when parts became available. To answer your question about the wood to metal firewalls, Ford offered the metal low cowl firewalls from their dealerships so owners could update their low cowl T’s to the metal firewall.
Hope this info can help but do study the T encycleopedia on this website has lots of information about your T.

Good luck

[Steve Jelf]

The old-style front spring clip ended with the 1919 cars, making the 1919 model year believable. After the metal firewall was introduced in 1923, it became the standard replacement part for earlier wooden firewalls. That's why it's not unheard of to find one in a car earlier than 1923. The lack of a starter hole suggests an earlier hogshead, but that's not the only clue in dating the power train. An engine later than 1918 should also have a place for a generator, even if one isn't present.

[kmatt2]

Steve, The early 1919 open cars continued using the non-starter type engine block and hogshead. By around late February 1919 the last of the non-starter type blocks were used in TT production. Is your block non-generator type or generator type ? By late February 1919 the open cars would be produced with block offs for starter and generator. A special note for this time period is that Ford had a large surplus supply of non-generator type timing covers and used a special generator block off that mates up with the non-generator timing cover. So your January 1919 engine could very well be original with an iron non-starter hogshead. Is the clutch operated by the hand brake lever drilled through the hogshead on both sides, or only drilled on peddle side ? In 1917 they are drilled through and in 1918 are drilled peddle side only and clutch shaft fits in a machined pocket in side of the hogshead on the non-peddle side at least in USA cars.

[kmatt2]

Steve, Posting some pictures of your engine would he helpful.

[kmatt2]

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[speedytinc]

Does it have a bolt on generator piece thats replaceable for a generator mount with the earlier timing cover?

[bobt]

Steve. When I bought my 1915 touring I bought all the parts to add a starter and a generator. (HUGE job!) Then I found out how cool it is to hand crank the T. People LOVE it. I JUST gave all the starter parts to a man who is 87 years old. I'm 75 and have no problem cranking. Remember that many women hand cranked a T.

[Wayne Sheldon]

Looks/sounds like a rare bird. A narrow window crossover open car when the enclosed cars became standard with demountable rim wheels and the starter package. However the open cars didn't get those as an option for another couple months.
Very few 1917 through 1919 model T Fords are "properly" restored. Hobbyists since WW2 have mostly opted to add later conveniences or more readily available later parts. The true early 1919 is very rarely seen today. You may want to make an effort to fix it up really right!

Regardless, it is a fine looking T!

[SB Nelson]

I see a '53 lurking nearby.....

It's not mine; these pictures were taken at the seller's place. But, I do have a '50 sedan that I'm also working on.

[SB Nelson]

Steve, Posting some pictures of your engine would he helpful.

This appears to be a non-starter, non-generator engine, which is fine. I don't mind cranking, I'm still a young 61. When I get to the state that I can no longer crank, I probably shouldn't be driving anyway! I'll let my grandson do it then. Now, if I only had a grandson...

[NoelChico]

I strongly suspect you don't have a ring gear on your flywheel. Putting one on is a major teardown job. If you had one, you could, in the future, put a starter hogshead on the car and forget about the generator. The battery can be recharged by the magneto. A well-tuned T starts fairly easily with the crank anyway, unless it's winter in the northern climates. But you won't likely be driving much in the winter anyway. I see you're just NW of me near the ND and Canadian border. I own an August 1919 Roadster (1920 model year) that I enjoy. Have fun!

[TWrenn]

I strongly suspect you don't have a ring gear on your flywheel. Putting one on is a major teardown job. If you had one, you could, in the future, put a starter hogshead on the car and forget about the generator. The battery can be recharged by the magneto. A well-tuned T starts fairly easily with the crank anyway, unless it's winter in the northern climates. But you won't likely be driving much in the winter anyway. I see you're just NW of me near the ND and Canadian border. I own an August 1919 Roadster (1920 model year) that I enjoy. Have fun!

I'll chime in here by saying that simply looking at it it is likely in need of an overhaul anyway. Yeh cosmetics don't mean a thing but my money is on that it needs it. So there's his chance to make it "starter ready" by adding a ring gear and at least the starter hogshead. Just block off the openings of course. Like you said a generator ain't really needed. But often a starter IS! I'm doing that either Clara my '13 this winter. Well, Joe Bell is...I just pay the bill!

[John kuehn]

You could have an original magneto only T. Probably not many basic T’s left. I don’t think I would upgrade it to a starter car. You could see if it has a ring gear if you remove the transmission cover and shine a small flashlight inside the transmission to see if it does.
It’s your car to have fun with and good luck with what ever you do!

[Russ T Fender]

Starters are highly overrated and, along with generators, are more trouble than they’re worth as far as I’m concerned. I’m 79 and always crank start my T’s, even the two I have with starters. If you take the time to set them up correctly they’re easy enough to start on the crank. I certainly wouldn’t add a starter to your car unless the engine has to come out for a total rebuild and even then I’d just add a ring gear and leave everything else as is. If it ain’t broke don’t fix it.

[NoelChico]

"Starters are highly overrated and, along with generators, are more trouble than they’re worth as far as I’m concerned. I’m 79 and always crank start my T’s, even the two I have with starters. If you take the time to set them up correctly they’re easy enough to start on the crank. I certainly wouldn’t add a starter to your car unless the engine has to come out for a total rebuild and even then I’d just add a ring gear and leave everything else as is. If it ain’t broke don’t fix it."

Val, It's a little harder to crank start a T in northern Montana in November than in Florida, even with 5-30 oil.

[Steve Jelf]

At 83 I'm distressingly weak. I need to find somebody with a T that will let me know if I can still start by hand. I think I probably can, but you never know what you can do until you do it.

[SB Nelson]

Val, It's a little harder to crank start a T in northern Montana in November than in Florida, even with 5-30 oil.

For sure! When it gets to 30 or 40 below zero, riding in an open car with the wind blowing through my hair, isn't my idea of a good time...

[Russ T Fender]

Hey Noel, it certainly is easier in Florida but I have cars in Upstate New York too that I run in the winter but admittedly I wouldn’t venture out often these days when the temperature drops below zero even if I had a starter. For cold weather starting up north I jack up a rear wheel and use a short blast of starting fluid. That’s been working for me so far. Don’t get me wrong, my comment was somewhat tongue in cheek but I do think that a well tuned T should be easy enough to start on the crank for most people.

[YellowTRacer]

For cold weather starting, first off, always leave the car stored or parked with the emergency brake in the forward position (unless you're parked on a hill and need the emergency brake set) as it keeps the clutch discs clamped together, keeping the oil from getting in between them, so when you pull the brake lever back separating the discs there's less drag from thick oil when cranking. To crank start, put a chock block in front of a front wheel. Leave the brake lever in the forward position (high gear). Jack up a rear wheel high enough so that it can spin freely. Open the carburetor rich and lean mixture knob (on the firewall or dashboard) a half a turn (counter clockwise). Turn the ignition on, retard the spark lever and set the hand throttle about a quarter to a third the way down. Now, grab the crank handle, pull out the choke wire and hold it out while you pull up on the crank once or twice. Now, release the choke wire, pull up on the crank or spin it and it'll fire right up. Now it's running, advance the spark lever, maybe a little less hand throttle and begin pulling the brake handle back at least to the neutral position (vertical straight up and down). By now it's running a little rich turn the rich and lean mixture knob back to normal running position (clockwise) without killing the engine. Slowly pull the brake lever back until it finally stops the rear wheel from turning, without killing the engine. I don't care how cold the weather gets that'll start your model T. Remove the front wheel chock and go for a drive.

Ede aka #4

[YellowTRacer]

Make sure you remove the Jack!!!

Ed aka #4

[Oldav8tor]

I have a 1917 - When the engine was overhauled we replaced the flywheel with one that had a ring gear and installed a later hogshead. I converted to 12 volts, installed a modern WOSP starter and keep a odyssey battery charged using a simple "Hot Shot" charger which converts some of the magneto output to pulsating DC to charge the battery.

[Steve Jelf]

Everybody who is relatively new to the Model T world, pay attention to Ed's procedure for cold starting. That's how I do it, except I leave the ignition off when choking (and never try to "spin" the engine).

The post telling how to keep the battery charged on a hand-start car is on the money. I would rather use a simple mag charger than try to remember charging between drives. I don't know why more people don't take advantage of that choice.

[Oldav8tor]

Steve, owning a 100 year old car with little or no maintenance history require that you take a careful look at it. You ought to take a spark plug out or remove a valve cover and try to see whether it has two-piece valves. The problem is discussed here <https://mtfca.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php? ... es#p342218> I'd also pull the transmission cover off and ask a friend to slowly turn the crank so I could inspect the drums for signs of surface cracks. The latter means an engine pull. If you don't know whether the thrust washers in the differential have been replaced with Bronze it would be prudent to take a look. Failure of babbitt thrust washers can lead to loss of power and brakes - not to mention damage to the gears. And so it goes.....

Our club routinely does car surveys to look for potentially expensive problems. We'll help buyers and sellers. If you are new to Model T's, you need all the help you can get. If you can connect with a Model T club they can be a great source of advice and help.
Pay a visit to Steve Jelf's excellent resources at <https://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG52.html>

[YellowTRacer]

Yeah boys and girls, Steve is right. I inadvertently left that out of my instructions. Don't turn the ignition on until you've choked it.

Ed aka #4