Removable ear bands in 1915?

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Steve Jelf
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Removable ear bands in 1915?

Post by Steve Jelf » Sat Jun 15, 2019 3:22 pm

While contemplating the question of what seems to be excessive adjustment in my 1923 touring, I got to thinking about the removable-ear bands.Would they be any better than the early bands in my 1915, or would I still have to remove the hogshead to change them? If they will work with the 1915 I might as well put them in while the transmission is apart.
The inevitable often happens.
1915 Runabout
1923 Touring

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Ruxstel24
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Re: Removable ear bands in 1915?

Post by Ruxstel24 » Sat Jun 15, 2019 3:38 pm

I believe if you cut the old bands or drill/cut the rivets on one ear, you can go to detachable ears without removing the HH.
I have a few pin style for sale.

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Steve Jelf
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Re: Removable ear bands in 1915?

Post by Steve Jelf » Sat Jun 15, 2019 4:47 pm

I don't have to cut anything or alter any parts. I have some removable-ear bands I can install while I have the transmission out of the car and apart. The question is whether I should make the change. Will they work with the 1915 hogshead, or will I still have to remove the hogshead if I need to change them? It's probably a moot question. Either way, the linings are likely to outlast me.
The inevitable often happens.
1915 Runabout
1923 Touring


Erik Johnson
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Re: Removable ear bands in 1915?

Post by Erik Johnson » Sat Jun 15, 2019 5:29 pm

You'll need to cut the clutch pedal shaft.

See this thread:

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/33 ... 1386590814


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Re: Removable ear bands in 1915?

Post by Jim Sims » Sat Jun 15, 2019 5:42 pm

If you try this, you will need the bands with the button type latches. The blade type will not work because of interference inside the hog head.


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Re: Removable ear bands in 1915?

Post by Rich Bingham » Sat Jun 15, 2019 5:48 pm

Don't do it.
"Get a horse !"


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Re: Removable ear bands in 1915?

Post by Scott_Conger » Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:12 pm

Cutting the Low Pedal Shaft on an aluminum hog's head equiped car is the fastest way to wreck the hog's head there is. Now that one end of the support is gone, the left-most bushing (now the only bushing) has to keep the shaft from torquing/twisting, and bears 100% of the rotational wear.

Given the fact that you believe the bands will outlast you, if you did use removable ear bands, their use would be moot unless the shaft is cut. My opinion and practice is that on Aluminum hog's heads, the shaft is supported on both ends and I "update" them back to original configuration.

Cast iron, later hog's heads are a totally different story.
Scott Conger

Full Flow Float Valves - deliver fuel like Henry intended!


Original Smith
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Re: Removable ear bands in 1915?

Post by Original Smith » Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:14 am

If you have an aluminum hogs head, you have to remove it to replace the bands regardless of the type of band you use. There were aftermarket bands made that will work, but it is still a pain in the butt. Remove the hogs head!


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Re: Removable ear bands in 1915?

Post by HaroldRJr » Sun Jun 16, 2019 4:44 pm

For what its worth,...our club recently had a "work party" to help one of our members put new bands in his '23 touring, and we had an awful time,...in fact, it turned into several saturday afternoon work parties to get it done. Long story short, his '23 touring is sort of a "bitsa" car, and whatever hogshead was on that car worked fine with the original factory stock bands, but was NOT compatible with removable ear bands. We got it all back together and found that everything was "locked up" and we could not even turn the engine over with the hand crank. Found out that the inside of the hogshead had a sort of "bump" inside that unknown to us during assembly, would bear down on one of the removable ears! One of the guys obtained another hogshead that worked O.K. I don't know what year hogshead was on this "bitsa" car, nor what year car the hogshead we finally installed was, but perhaps some research would be in order to make sure of "compatibility" so you don't have the trouble we had.

In other words, I guess any hogshead will work with original bands, but not necessarily with the removable ear bands,.....FWIW,....harold


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Re: Removable ear bands in 1915?

Post by HaroldRJr » Sun Jun 16, 2019 4:47 pm

....in re-reading this thread, I think Jim Simms explained the problem that we experienced, as it WAS the blade type removable ear bands that we had installed in place of the original stock bands,...FWIW,...harold

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Re: Removable ear bands in 1915?

Post by RajoRacer » Sun Jun 16, 2019 6:28 pm

Although not correct, according to the Ford "bible", one can install the removable ears on the passenger side BUT it can be difficult to install the detachable ear when the opposite side is up against the internal pedal boss so you can install them one at a time back at the rear of the brake drum and then slide them forward - I'm fond of the "button" type myself - I have sets of the other style if anyone is in need !


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Re: Removable ear bands in 1915?

Post by Luxford » Sun Jun 16, 2019 7:29 pm

I'm surprised no one has picked up on Scott Congers theory that you wreck the hogs head. It does not affect it.
On a LHD HH cutting of the low speed pedal shaft is the only modification needed.

One could just replace the pedal with another one and keep the original if needed.

None of the pedals are supported on their ends, the reverse and brake both have nothing touching them for support. They are threaded and slotted for the washer and its matching adjusting nut.
The low speed pedal has clearance, its length only locates the band ear, that's why the later ones were modified to have a reduced end instead of being hollow.
All the loads have always been taken by the bushing on the left side of the HH.
On the RHD HH the controls are opposites. Only the low speed pedal has the inside adjustment and the reverse and the brake need to be cut shorter.

I did this over 40 years ago to my 1911 aluminium HH I have both button and blade type bands (two sets one of each which I replace with another if needed.)
The blade type work OK in my RHD though on the brake band I had trouble getting the lower blade hook into it's slot due to the tight gap between the drum and HH, so I modified it by opening the slots as per the diagram.
Attachments
band_edited-1.jpg
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Re: Removable ear bands in 1915?

Post by Scott_Conger » Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:29 pm

Peter

on Reverse and Brake, the outside of the hog's head has the cast pedal supports whose ramps bear nearly 100% of the cross-axis force when applied. This is a big difference compared to the Low pedal. With the right side unsupported, the support length is far shorter and much greater force is seen by the lone support bush in the hog's head. In fact, the bush is now free to see wear across it's rotational axis where originally the wear is entirely along the "far" side of the bush and remained axial. It absolutely makes a difference.

If I hold a rod in my hands with each of my hands a hand's with apart from each other and then invite someone to grab the tip end of the shaft sticking out of my hand and try to pull on it, one hand is pulled and the other is pushed they will not succeed in wrestling it from me. Now let me hold the same rod in only one hand and invite someone to try to twist it. I will end up with a sore wrist or worse.

This is the difference in dynamics of having the shaft supported by one bushing. Cast iron deals with these forces far better than aluminum
Scott Conger

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Re: Removable ear bands in 1915?

Post by Luxford » Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:51 pm

Maybe someone else can see Scott's explanation as OK
But as I see it the shaft is not clamped both ends as in Scotts two hands on shaft, as the adjuster is a loose fitting not a grip in the shaft so can't affect the movement of the pedal as it turns and pushes sideways.
All the loads are taken by the shaft bearing on the left.


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Re: Removable ear bands in 1915?

Post by Scott_Conger » Sun Jun 16, 2019 11:30 pm

Peter it is obvious I will not sway you, so will let this drop after this post, but the original low shaft IS supported on both ends and thus load is shared in two places. The original shaft has a reduced diameter at the end that fits into a receiving hole in the adjustment screw. It is by design, and definition a bearing surface. I will let you try to prevail on this subject and will not try to convince you further of the obvious, since you are not inclined to see it.

low pedal shaft.jpg
Scott Conger

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Re: Removable ear bands in 1915?

Post by Luxford » Mon Jun 17, 2019 12:01 am

Agree with you Scott,

one last comment if Ford saw fit to alter the design in the later HH so the shafts ( RH & LH ) so the end did not get supported obviously it was not a problem you see. Never in 55 years of Model T Ford envolvement have I heard of this as a problem.

Still thats the purpose of the forum idears and thoughts for everyone to help work out an answer.


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Re: Removable ear bands in 1915?

Post by Nv Bob » Mon Jun 17, 2019 12:28 am

If you do you want use the teens hogs head as stated the clutch shaft is supported better
Aluninum covers are easy pull and replace so why would you need them
Just my 2 cents


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Re: Removable ear bands in 1915?

Post by Allan » Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:10 am

I have a question. A number of posters have referred to wear in the bush in the hogshed. Do USA LHD alumimium have bushes? Our Canadian sourced cars, and the earlier ones of these were US parts, do NOT have bushes. The shafts run in the alloy housing. I fit bushes and oil seals when rebuilding the hogshead to take out the wear that has occurred in the alloy covers.

I am inclined to give credence to Scott"s theory. A well worn shaft/hole at the pedal end will allow the pedal shaft to engage in the hollow end of the adjuster. Perhaps not initally, but with wear I have seen it occur.

Allan from down under.


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Re: Removable ear bands in 1915?

Post by Scott_Conger » Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:08 am

Allan

no, there are no bushes...just the base aluminum...I may have inadvertantly used the term and if so, was sloppy in it's use. Aluminum is a crummy bearing, but I think the material was cheap and economical to cast. I've always been amazed at the number and complexity of aluminum castings of that time period.
Scott Conger

Full Flow Float Valves - deliver fuel like Henry intended!

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