New T owner with a few questions

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catfishunter99
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New T owner with a few questions

Post by catfishunter99 » Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:22 pm

So not exactly a new T owner, I've owned a 1922 TT fire engine that is currently for sale. I recently acquired 2 new to me T's as a package deal from an estate. A 26 Touring and a 14 Runabout. Both were amateurrly restored in the 60's and are in reasonably good condition and I did get both running.

My questions today are about the correctness of the 14. I have been reading up on the brass era cars since this is my first and it appears Ford ceased production on the open cars sometime in late 14 until 15.

The car is titled as a 14. The engine number on the car is 590057 which puts it in September of 14 if I understand correctly. Most of the attributes of the car are representative of a 14 including the carbide lights, cowl lamps, and rear fenders. The front fenders are of the 15 style which has me wondering if they are original. Also appears to have a 15 louvered hood.

Can you fine folks share your opinion on this as well as any other thoughts on the build month. I also wonder around what month production ceased on the open cars in 14? Thanks in advance for your knowledge! Many more questions to come as I learn more and enjoy both cars. I've added some pictures for reference. Excuse the dust that's exactly as I brought her home.
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IMG_20190520_165814.jpg
IMG_20190520_165800.jpg
IMG_20190520_165749.jpg
Last edited by catfishunter99 on Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.


Scott_Conger
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Re: New T owner with a few questions

Post by Scott_Conger » Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:33 pm

I have been reading up on the brass era cars and it appears Ford ceased production on the open cars in late 14.
Where did you read that?

Here's the straight poop on your car: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/1914.htm
Scott Conger

Full Flow Float Valves - deliver fuel like Henry intended!

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Ruxstel24
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Re: New T owner with a few questions

Post by Ruxstel24 » Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:09 pm

Nice !! Looks like it will clean up very good.
I'm not the expert, but my understanding is that's a 15 build date on the engine, does not mean it's the original engine...
Looking forward to after bath pics ! :D


Allan
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Re: New T owner with a few questions

Post by Allan » Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:39 pm

Loren, that is a nice find. 14-15, there will be an overlap period when parts could come up on either years which may be correct on individual cars, like 15 front fenders on on your car. I have seen 13-14 riveted diff halves on known 1915 cars.

There is something going on with the windscreen though. On 1914 cars the lower screen leans back and the top screen is vertical. The top screen folds back, and as a result there is a dogleg in the support to allow it to do so. Your two screens on the same plane and the straight suppports are not usual on any car. It is a problem easily sorted with the correct parts.

Allan from down under.

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Re: New T owner with a few questions

Post by Steve Jelf » Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:54 pm

The engine assembly date is Tuesday, September 29, 1914, which puts it in the 1915 model year. But as Dave says, there's no guarantee that it's the original engine. You can check the hood with a magnet. If it sticks, the hood is 1916 (steel). If not, it's 1915 (aluminum).
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Re: New T owner with a few questions

Post by kmatt » Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:57 am

Lorien, Your Sept 1914 engine could be original to the car. Ford had a delay in producing the 1915 style open cars.

1915
JAN 25 Acc. 509, Letter, Ford Archives
"New" Runabouts announced for delivery in a week to ten days.

FEB 6 Acc. 509, Letter, Ford Archives
New-style Touring and Runabout bodies shipped to branches for use as models, not for use in production.

FEB 8 Factory Letter
Branches asked to submit a list of inventory for 1914 parts left over after the change to the 1915-style cars.

FEB 10 Acc. 509, Letter, Ford Archives
New type (1915 style) Runabouts and Tourings now being shipped from the Highland Park plant.


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Re: New T owner with a few questions

Post by Scott_Conger » Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:55 am

It is a body made in 1914, with a later windshield and home-made windshield supports. It is an engine made in 1914. Odds are strong that the two left the factory together. The car came with a bill of sale and not a title, as titles came much later, at different times in different states. The owner had to produce evidence of ownership and then declared the car to be a "19xx" car, so even some original titles were not entirely accurate. Our February '13 touring still has it's original Indiana title from 1926 (as I recall) and it is a title that reads unlike any other title you'll ever see (and the old farmer called it a '14, as it turns out)

I get the fact that the fiscal year and calendar years are different, but honestly, it is splitting hairs and would be plain goofy to call this car a "1915" given that the car was made in 1914, and is a 1914 body style (1915 was markedly different)
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Re: New T owner with a few questions

Post by KWTownsend » Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:34 am

Although Ford's 1915 fiscal year started October1, 1914, the non-cowl 1914 body was produced through January 1915 and who knows how long at assembly branches. Regardless of production date, I generally date a car by its model year. Your car is a 1914 model. I wonder how many Nov 1914 to Jan 1915 cars were incorrectly restored with wrong bodies or engines. I would love to find more cars like yours from that unique era. I find Ford's transitional times really interesting. My transitional Oct-Nov 1911 has step-side body has been known as a 1911ever since it was new.

It looks like a beautiful car snd a rare treasure. Thanks for sharing. I'd love to see more pictures.

: ^ )

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Re: New T owner with a few questions

Post by twrenn » Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:52 am

I'm discovering it's a bit unique and even fun owning a transitional car. I have one, I call it my '25/26 Fordor. Definitely transitional, got all the "right stuff" from the two years of it that I like the most. In Lorein's case I hope the hood is at least aluminum, 'cause if it's steel, then well, maybe the car is starting to look a bit more like a "bitsa" car. My guess is, it's aluminum. Hope he lets us know. A slight concern is the RF hub is of the later style, but I find that to be fairly common while maybe even the left side is the correct hub with the thin shoulder. I think these cars hubs took a beating on the right side and ended up being replaced later on with what was only available, being the hub with the bigger shoulder. Another area of concern is the sidelamps...the bracket is of the '13 style, for as much as I can find in research, the '14 model year lamp brackets were integral to the lamp. Just some thoughts.

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Re: New T owner with a few questions

Post by George House » Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:30 am

Tim, I thought you were going to write about my observation when you mentioned cowl lamps. They appear very much like Victor #1 lamps and would match the painted bonnet headlamps as Victor #1s too. Combined with the straight windshield support arms this points to 1913. Of course the door style is 1914. Scott, my 1914 windshield appears like the picture. Push it forward a notch and it’ll be perfectly verticle. Lorien, your runabout is beautiful and you’ll get a great deal of enjoyment out of it. Check two things for us: does the top of the windshield fold forward or rearward...and...is the Ford script on the cowl lamps ‘raised’ or ‘recessed’. One more thing. Do you know for sure if the rear axle babbit thrust washers were replaced?
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Re: New T owner with a few questions

Post by Rich Bingham » Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:26 pm

What a great looking runabout !! No one has mentioned the after-market radiator, and I'm not "up" on '13-'14 differences enough to know if the crank handle changed from "curvey aluminum" to "straight taper steel" in '14. (??) It's always a question with a 105 year old Model T just how many later parts were added replacements during its using life, and just how complete it was before undergoing a restoration at the tender age of 50 . . . and how attentive to "authenticity" was that restorer ? I'm curious about the dash, possibly replaced in a 1960's restoration ? I believe the finish veneers run horizontal over a vertically laminated core originally.
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Re: New T owner with a few questions

Post by Drkbp » Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:59 pm

Do not try to move the windshield until until you turn the driver side hinge over the other way. It is on backwards.
The passenger side windshield hinge is on correct for it to fold to the rear. ;)

Then we can talk about a nice looking '14 :) with some Victor lamps we have to get lit! :D

Ken P


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catfishunter99
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Re: New T owner with a few questions

Post by catfishunter99 » Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:50 pm

Hi Guys,. Thanks for all the kind remarks and knowledge about the correctness of the car. I am having a blast learning as much about the old girl as I can. It sounds as though there are a few things that need to be addressed but all in all not too bad.

To answer a few questions.The hood on the car is indeed aluminum. For on the cowl lamps is recessed and reads Model-2. Windshield appears to fold back (once the hinge is reversed. Rear axle is the rivet style ( no idea if trust washers were replaced any way to tell?). Radiator is a replacement not sure of age or type.

Overall, I am enjoying learning and tinkering with the car and look forward to hearing more comments and questions regarding authenticity. I am a huge fan of original period correct cars but will enjoy this one regardless of it's pedigree!

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Re: New T owner with a few questions

Post by KWTownsend » Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:59 pm

Do you have the carbide generator for it? If not, I think there is one listed in the classifieds.

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Re: New T owner with a few questions

Post by Steve Jelf » Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:36 pm

The bad news is that the only way to tell what's inside the rear axle is to open it up and look. The good news is that it ain't rocket surgery. :) Get the MTFCA axle book and Glen will tell you step by step what to do.
The inevitable often happens.
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catfishunter99
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Re: New T owner with a few questions

Post by catfishunter99 » Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:38 am

I will definitely check out the carbide generator. There is a Prestolite tank mounted on the running board. Not sure if you can still get them filled?

On a similar note, a pair of the headlights below also came with the car and are in good condition. Any idea on what year these are?

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Re: New T owner with a few questions

Post by Mark Gregush » Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:59 am

As long as it is not the type with the gauge on the end, any place that sells/refills gas/oxygen cylinders should be able to fill it. Check to see if there is any acetylene left in the tank. From what I could find there is not really a shelf life on the gas, the tank yes. I am sure the tank will need to be re-certified when you take it in for refill, they can do that as well. Google welding suppliers for your area.
Also, it should have the outlet offset (not centered on top of tank). If the outlet is in the center of the tank it was not meant to be used on it side. Acetylene cylinders with center outlet are used in the upright position, the offset outlet type are used horizontally (like on the running board)
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Re: New T owner with a few questions

Post by Original Smith » Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:54 am

The '15 style fenders were used in late '14, but they still use the '14 bracket. Fairly common. Check the windshield hinges for the double dimple. It's the only year they did that. The support arms, as noted, are for a '13. They are difficult to find.


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catfishunter99
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Re: New T owner with a few questions

Post by catfishunter99 » Sat Jun 22, 2019 7:07 am

Here's the pictures of the additional headlights. Any idea on year?
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Re: New T owner with a few questions

Post by RajoRacer » Sat Jun 22, 2019 10:41 am

I have all matching Brown 16's on our '14.


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Re: New T owner with a few questions

Post by Drkbp » Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:13 pm

Lorien,
The John Brown 16's also "fit" your runabout. You have plenty of headlights! :)
I have a set on a my July 1913 '14 style touring. Most important part is the Mangin mirrors in them. The mirrors will also fit the Victor lamps that are on your car.
A fellow has a post on the HCCA that he goes to Hershey and re-silvers the Mangins if they need it.

https://hcca.org/BOARDS/viewtopic.php?f ... 58049a53c3

I haven't tried to have any silvered since I have a number of good mirrors. Has anyone used Joe to re-silver?

The John Brown 16's come left and right door opening but doesn't matter. Seems they got mixed even on the assembly line.
Which tail lamp do you have?

KP

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Re: New T owner with a few questions

Post by KWTownsend » Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:40 pm

Since you have a Prest-O-Lite tank, you are golden! I love mine! As long as it does not have a gauge on the bottom, they will test it, certify it refill it. They will exchange it for another offset tank, or if you want that specific tank back, they can probably do that for you, but it will be on their time frame.

More pics, Please!
: ^ )
Keith

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