New spokes not fitting so well

[nathanw90]

First time wheel rebuilding. They're Hayes wheels, bought Hayes spokes. First problem was the tenon was slightly too big to press into the fellow. Turned one set down, as an experiment (before doing all 48). Got them pressed in.

Was all excited then decided to mount it on the car and spin, wobbly. About a 1/2"! So I check the felloe, it's true. I check the hub, it's true too.

So I decide to take the wheel all apart again and notice this is how the center looks. Seems odd to me?

Anyone who's done their own wheels have any input? I'd greatly appreciate it!

[Allan]

I have seen the term "clocked" to describe what has happened with your wheel. Sometime in the assembly/pressing the felloe has rotated a bit in relation to the hub centre, which causes the misalignment of the spokes at the hub. Somebody with more experience than I may have the solution to your problem.

Allan from down under.

[nathanw90]

I have seen the term "clocked" to describe what has happened with your wheel. Sometime in the assembly/pressing the felloe has rotated a bit in relation to the hub centre, which causes the misalignment of the spokes at the hub. Somebody with more experience than I may have the solution to your problem.

Allan from down under.

Like this! I'll have to try again

[Oldav8tor]

I give you credit for trying to do this on your own. Me, I chose to send my wheels to Noah Stutzman who has probably done thousands of similar wheels. I was very happy with his work and the price.

I've heard others complain about what you're experiencing and I think Allan and Jim are right on the money as far as what happened. I'm sure with patience and careful attention that you'll get a good outcome.

[nathanw90]

I give you credit for trying to do this on your own. Me, I chose to send my wheels to Noah Stutzman who has probably done thousands of similar wheels. I was very happy with his work and the price.

I've heard others complain about what you're experiencing and I think Allan and Jim are right on the money as far as what happened. I'm sure with patience and careful attention that you'll get a good outcome.

I appreciate the credit! I'm a very hands on person that can almost figure out anything. But this had me stumped!

I call Noah last week about sending them out. But $600 deep in spokes...

I decided to give it a whirl again. I'll try to press again tomorrow and see what happens!

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

First problem was the tenon was slightly too big to press into the fellow. Turned one set down, as an experiment (before doing all 48). Got them pressed in.

They are supposed to be too big! The idea is that they need to be pressed in and very tight in the felloe. They should not be turned down.

[browning]

The most true running and the easiest to assemble wheels I have done were those that I preshrunk the spokes for prior to assembly. I heated the spokes in the oven for two or three hours at about 300 degrees drying the wood to near zero moisture content. The reduced dimensions allow the spokes to be aligned with the “flats” unstressed as they are drawn together and the tenons are reduced such that they fit much more easily into the felloes. Obviously the spokes need to be returned to their original moisture content after assembly. If there is any interest I can detail the process of assembly, drilling and bolting and rewetting. If I was more of a whiz I would video the process but unfortunately I am technically challanged to the point that I can’t even take a picture that winds up being right side up.
.

[nathanw90]

First problem was the tenon was slightly too big to press into the fellow. Turned one set down, as an experiment (before doing all 48). Got them pressed in.

They are supposed to be too big! The idea is that they need to be pressed in and very tight in the felloe. They should not be turned down.

Oh I'm aware. There was no way these were going to fit in the holes at all! Pound the press up to a point where I couldn't even turn the nut anymore.

Not all wheels are the same!

[nathanw90]

The most true running and the easiest to assemble wheels I have done were those that I preshrunk the spokes for prior to assembly. I heated the spokes in the oven for two or three hours at about 300 degrees drying the wood to near zero moisture content. The reduced dimensions allow the spokes to be aligned with the “flats” unstressed as they are drawn together and the tenons are reduced such that they fit much more easily into the felloes. Obviously the spokes need to be returned to their original moisture content after assembly. If there is any interest I can detail the process of assembly, drilling and bolting and rewetting. If I was more of a whiz I would video the process but unfortunately I am technically challanged to the point that I can’t even take a picture that winds up being right side up.
.

Sounds like a good idea. But would this work with spokes already varnished? Like in my case

[browning]

It would still work but the drying and rewetting would take longer and the finish might not hold up to the heat. You
Could try one spoke as a test to check size and finish degradation.

[CudaMan]

There are two sizes of tenons available on spokes, 5/8 and 1/2. Maybe you had to turn your tenons down because you bought 5/8 tenon spokes and the holes in your felloes are sized for 1/2 tenons.

I guess I've been lucky, I haven't had the hub rotation during pressing issue on the wheels I've built (so far). The fact that the spokes weren't fully seated onto the hub due to the clocking may have also contributed to your difficulties. All you can do is take it apart and try again, good luck!

[nathanw90]

There are two sizes of tenons available on spokes, 5/8 and 1/2. Maybe you had to turn your tenons down because you bought 5/8 tenon spokes and the holes in your felloes are sized for 1/2 tenons.

I guess I've been lucky, I haven't had the hub rotation during pressing issue on the wheels I've built (so far). The fact that the spokes weren't fully seated onto the hub due to the clocking may have also contributed to your difficulties. All you can do is take it apart and try again, good luck!

Well again, these are Hayes wheels. According to Snyder, the tenon is a .550. Not 1/2 or 5/8. Either way, there's no issue there. The issue is the center! Giving it another shot tonight.

[Oldav8tor]

One of the things that sent me to Noah Stutzman was the cost of spokes. The added cost to have him put it together seemed minimal to me. The biggest extra cost was shipping, although a couple of times we were able to get wheels delivered or picked up which saved us some $$. A friend of mine enjoys visiting the area where Noah lives which has worked out for us more than once.

[jiminbartow]

It is common to have to take it apart and do it again several times. Each time you learn a little more until the last time when you get it right. Don’t Settle for less than perfect.

[NoelChico]

As an aside, Noah rebuilt my '16 non-demountable wheels last summer. I dropped them off on my way to Hershey and picked them up on my return. His son was also in the shop working. It looks like we'll have many more years of his family's quality work! Noel

[nathanw90]

So, I took it all apart and tried again. I was under the assumption the spokes would settle in the correct position as they compress. So I noticed one side going down further than the other. Stopped and smacked the hub on the high side and it leveled back out. Went slow and kept checking.

My holes no longer lined up, which is good. Meaning they're positioned differently.

No longer "clocked"

Mounted before drilling new holes. Has about a 1/4 wobble now. Acceptable for me on a rear wheel. I've learned a lot now, so hopefully the next three will come out mint!

These spoke sorta got beat up from the trial and error, which may be leading to the slight wobble. If so I'll Respoke it in the future.

Thanks for the advice everyone!

[Craig Leach]

Hi Nathan,
First the spoke tenons should fit very tight in the felloe, my experience was I had to rub them with bees wax so they would compress into the
holes. I had the same issue that you are having with the spokes trying to clock or rotate in one direction @ the hub. what I found was if you
support the spokes in the center & lay the tenon on the the felloe the spokes fit together @ the center very well. Measure the diameter of
the hole in the center. I think you will find it is smaller than the diameter of the hub. One would think the spokes should fit tight on the hub
but it is just as if not more important that the spokes fit tight against each other in order to hold the load. If they contact the hub before
they fit together they will try to rotate either CW or CCW. I had to carefully remove material from the center end of my spokes to get the
proper fit, fortunately one of the wheels on my B&D belt sander is the same diameter as a T hub so it was not overly difficult once I figured
out that was what was needed. If you have a way to shorten the spokes @ the tenon end that I would think will work as well. Also some rim
lock bolts will line up with the tenons & will not let the rim center on the felloe & you will need to remove some of the end of the offending
tenon. this can be very frustrating, I almost went to wire wheels over this. Now I'm supper happy with the new spokes. Good Luck.
Craig.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

One would think the spokes should fit tight on the hub but it is just as if not more important that the spokes fit tight against each other in order to hold the load. If they contact the hub before they fit together they will try to rotate either CW or CCW.

Craig.

Great explanation of the cause for "clocking"! This is the "problem" I have with the Regan press method. It depends heavily upon the spoke length to be exactly right. I would want to push the spokes down with an undersized hub, (or some similar device), then measure the resulting diameter of the hole and resize, it if needed, before pressing in the hub you intend to use. The hub must be tight in the spokes, but not so much that it results in skewing, (clocking), the spokes.

[nathanw90]

I now have two wheels done! This one I still have to trim down the tenons. I know I know, but it's the only way they'll fit! I also waxed them to allow the tenons to slide in easier. The spokes kept clocking no matter what. So I went super slow, loosening the nut on the bottom, then tightening the top. Slowly bringing the spokes to the center. This kept them flat against the hub base the entire time. Worked great! This wheel spins very true.

Time to get the other 24 spokes varnished

[Norman Kling]

I would suggest that you turn the hub so that when you get it aligned correctly, you can drill new holes between the opposite side of the spokes. Otherwise the bolts won't fit and the holes would need to be drilled bigger than they should be .
Norm

[SurfCityGene]

Here's a tip for others that might read this!!
One of our local Orange County club members, Dave Seiler right here in Brea Ca. makes some Very Nice wheels! He sells them Very Reasonable as well!! Many of our local guys are running his wheels and love the detail of his craftsmanship! He's also donated sets at the National Tours.

His Contact is: Dave's Wood Wheel Service & Wood Shop 412 S Flower Brea, Ca. 92521 Tel 714-501-7080 cell or email wheelguy221@yahoo.com.

[nathanw90]

UPDATE!

I found a process that works! You have to do the wheel facing down (outside down). Set the spokes up as a teepee, with a nut and some sort of holder below. Smaller than the outside plate so marks are covered.

Ideally, loosen the lower nut and then tighter the upper nut. While doing this, keep checking the spokes are flush, and no clocked.

It's a slow process, but works the best. Worry about pressing the hub in after. Got two more done with tiny 1/4 wobble. My only gripe is the quality of the spokes. Some spots chipped at the hub end.

[Henry K. Lee]

Persistence in self teaching has its rewards! Super Job!

[love2T's]

I give you credit for trying to do this on your own. Me, I chose to send my wheels to Noah Stutzman who has probably done thousands of similar wheels. I was very happy with his work and the price.

I've heard others complain about what you're experiencing and I think Allan and Jim are right on the money as far as what happened. I'm sure with patience and careful attention that you'll get a good outcome.

I'm with you Tim. By the time you spend over $144 for a spoke kit, fight with them, etc. I'll pay what little more it costs to have Noah do it, while I'm out driving in my other T! I guess I just don't trust myself either, and have read of far too many guys having issues with DIY just to save a hundred bucks. Not for me.

[TRDxB2]

Would the plate used (vs a hub) have caused the clocking by not keeping the spokes from creeping up? Also with a hub tilt be another cause?
https://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/1 ... 83733.html

[Original Smith]

I deal with Calimers. I wouldn't consider anything else. Perfect job every time.

[Oldav8tor]

My take is this.... If I was one of those guys who wanted to do everything, master all the necessary skills to maintain a Model T, I might try to re-spoke my own wheels. I am not one of those guys. In my opinion, sometimes it's just better to let an expert do it. I've never been disappointed by the result.

[Allan]

I am fortunate enough to have a good friend with a large hydraulic press with incremental foot control for the ram travel. Even with our Canadian spokes with the double taper, they can be a problem. With his press there is no chance of cocking the load on the spokes like the photo shows using the Reagan press. I set up the wheel in the press with the hub flange and the wheel felloe supported. The spokes are pressed down with a generator body as the driver. The press allows a decent drive to push the spokes home. The last one I did had shims on the tenon end, so it was extra tight. It was perfect straight off the press. Just had to bolt the outside plate on when finished.

Allan from down under.

[browning]

I keep posting but I'm pretty sure nobody ever tries it but oven drying the spokes prior to assembly makes them smaller in every dimension which solves the tight tenon and the clocking problem and produces the truest wheels I have ever assembled. They just have to be re-hydrated after assembly to swell the assembly back to the original sizes.

[nathanw90]

I spoke too soon! LOL

Of course the last wheel has to be the most difficult. After 3 evenings after work, taking apart, pressing, spinning, she was very wobbly.

So, after thinking a bit, I decided to give a try with using a hydraulic press. It work out quite well. Left the spokes in the teepee form, set everything up and pressed it down with the retaining plate on too. That way I could drill the new holes and bolt it down before releasing the pressure.

Not sure of its true yet, darn thing has to be!

Will find out tonight when I can mount it on the car.

[Dan Hatch]

All this is why the wheelwright I used would bore the hub hole after the spokes were in the fellow.
His wheels ran true every time.

[Allan]

Fellows, for your edification, Collins, the dictionary people advise that in American "English", "the circular rim, or part of a rim of a wheel, into which the outer ends of the spokes are inserted" is a felloe.
Felloes are made by fellows who build wheels.

Allan from down under, a retired school teacher.

[Dan Hatch]

Allan tell that to my iPhone. I got tired of correcting it.

[Henry K. Lee]

And "English" on a cue ball was explained to me while I lived in the UK as a polite way of striking someone in the jaw to do what you want them to do! And it works!

Allan....., LMAO!