McLaren Wires and Universal T Drivers --- Years of Tire Trouble

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BE_ZERO_BE
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McLaren Wires and Universal T Drivers --- Years of Tire Trouble

Post by BE_ZERO_BE » Sat Jul 06, 2019 6:36 pm

My tires keep rotating on the rim resulting in the shearing of the inner tube valve stem.
I have 30 x 3 1/2 Universal T Driver tires on McLaren wire wheels.
I have been fighting this problem for over five years.
I have a nice pile of tubes with no stems.
I have had this issue with and without flaps.
Just this last week I replaced three tubes and remounted the tires without flaps.
I put 65 – 70 PSI in them.
I made it about 20 miles before the right rear tire sheared the stem while doing about 40 MPH.
The wheel threw the tire and I was on the rim.
It was a real thrill bringing it to a stop with no traction on one side.

My Thoughts on this :
My McLaren wires are among the first sets that were manufactured.
Talking to others, I have heard that the Universal T Drivers may be slightly oversize.
I have also heard that the early McLaren wires may be slightly undersize.

Either way, I am going to buy four new tires this week (the grandkids are coming).
Of the available tires (Wards Riverside, Firestone, Universal Ribbed and Universal T Driver) which it the tightest and most difficult to get on?

Any thoughts on this will be greatly appreciated.
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Re: McLaren Wires and Universal T Drivers --- Years of Tire Trouble

Post by Scott_Conger » Sat Jul 06, 2019 6:59 pm

Bob

that is an interesting and frustrating problem you're experiencing. I'll be interested in the responses you get. I have the feeling that any increase in mounting difficulty or sticktion will pale in comparison to the forces involved in making these tires rotate on your rims, though. Best of luck, and am sending you an email.
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Re: McLaren Wires and Universal T Drivers --- Years of Tire Trouble

Post by BE_ZERO_BE » Sat Jul 06, 2019 7:27 pm

Thanks Scott for the words of encouragement.

Here is a photo of the left side after 20 miles.
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Re: McLaren Wires and Universal T Drivers --- Years of Tire Trouble

Post by BE_ZERO_BE » Sat Jul 06, 2019 7:30 pm

OK - Here's the photo !!

In this view, the direction of forward rotetion in counter-clockwise


IMG_1353.JPG
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Re: McLaren Wires and Universal T Drivers --- Years of Tire Trouble

Post by Mike Lebsack-Iowa » Sat Jul 06, 2019 7:35 pm

Hi Bob, I just sent you an email. Problem is not hard to correct. Mike


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Re: McLaren Wires and Universal T Drivers --- Years of Tire Trouble

Post by Mike Lebsack-Iowa » Sat Jul 06, 2019 7:57 pm

Mike from Vintage Wire Wheel here. I have been producing the McLaren Wire wheels for the past 2-3 years. The clincher rims themselves are very high quality. When I produce a McLaren Wheel I lightly knurl the inside edges of the rims so they basically grip the tire along the entire circumference of the wheel when inflated. Powder coating or heavy painting can fill in the knurling but I have not had any issues reported on any of the hundreds of wheels I have produced so I think the knurling is effective unless sanded off during the paint prep. I also know of one Forum member from Virginia who had the same problem with just one wheel. He previously used the commercial tire mounting “slickem” and upon remounting the problem fire found that there was still an abundance of this liquid trapped in the tire with the tube. He cleans the inside of the tire and remounted and has no issue since. I can talk you through a remedy if you wish. Hope this helps. Mike

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Re: McLaren Wires and Universal T Drivers --- Years of Tire Trouble

Post by BE_ZERO_BE » Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:24 pm

Mike,
Please resend the phone number you sent to me.
Thanks for your help.

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Re: McLaren Wires and Universal T Drivers --- Years of Tire Trouble

Post by Dollisdad » Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:25 pm

Had the same problem once with some original wood wheels once. Broke em down and took a chisel and gave the inner edge of the rim a good cross smack about every 6”. No more slipping.


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Re: McLaren Wires and Universal T Drivers --- Years of Tire Trouble

Post by katjack78 » Sat Jul 06, 2019 9:30 pm

One thing I noticed that will cause the problem you are having is the use of rubber stems. I believe you can eliminate your cut stems by changing to metal stem tubes with bridge washers, locking nuts, dust covers. I run Firestone (black) tires with metal stem tubes on 30x3-1/2 Buffalo wheels using 60 pounds air pressure. Suggest you try metal stem tubes.....they are typically about 2X the price of rubber stem tubes, but they are worth the extra bucks.


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Re: McLaren Wires and Universal T Drivers --- Years of Tire Trouble

Post by tman1913 » Sat Jul 06, 2019 10:52 pm

I had the same problem on a early set. The rims were powder coated and that was the issue. I had to use some course sand paper on the inside of the rim and rough it up a bit. Sure solved my problem, many many mile and never cut a stem off.

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Re: McLaren Wires and Universal T Drivers --- Years of Tire Trouble

Post by Steve Jelf » Sat Jul 06, 2019 11:57 pm

Original metal stems are often available at swap meets. I buy rubber stem tubes, cut off the stems, and install the metal ones. Much less costly than buying new metal stem tubes. Some details are here: http://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG110.html
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Re: McLaren Wires and Universal T Drivers --- Years of Tire Trouble

Post by Nv Bob » Sun Jul 07, 2019 12:07 am

I have nought a set from Mike at vintage wire wheel
Have had no bbn issues coming up on 200+ miles on them they are powder coated
60 to 65 psi rubber stem tubes ward riversides no flaps
I been watching my tubes as i have heard of this issue
With early sets


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Re: McLaren Wires and Universal T Drivers --- Years of Tire Trouble

Post by Allan » Sun Jul 07, 2019 12:54 am

Woah Bob! Dimpled and laced spoke wire wheels and NO flaps. This is just the time they should have flaps. I hope you at least have a good rim liner.

Allan from down under.

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Re: McLaren Wires and Universal T Drivers --- Years of Tire Trouble

Post by BE_ZERO_BE » Sun Jul 07, 2019 3:27 am

Allen, I do have rim lining.
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Re: McLaren Wires and Universal T Drivers --- Years of Tire Trouble

Post by HaroldRJr » Sun Jul 07, 2019 1:23 pm

Bob - I believe the conversation between you and Allen indirectly answers the question. Rim liners will not help in regard to tires slipping/rotating on the rims, but I believe flaps will make all the difference. Flaps are made of pretty thick rubber, and because they become pinched between the rim and the bead of the tire, I believe they will solve your problem. I'm thinking that this indirect suggestion by Allen will solve your problem,....harold

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Re: McLaren Wires and Universal T Drivers --- Years of Tire Trouble

Post by pete eastwood » Sun Jul 07, 2019 2:13 pm

I've had this problem with powder coated clincher rims.
Once I roughed up the painted surface of the rim so the tire could get some grip, the problem was solved.


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Re: McLaren Wires and Universal T Drivers --- Years of Tire Trouble

Post by Scottio » Sun Jul 07, 2019 3:58 pm

Um. 60psi ? I have stock wire wheels on my 26 Roadster and the manual says I should use 35psi. Is the difference because mine are stock and these others are aftermarket wheels? Thanks.

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Re: McLaren Wires and Universal T Drivers --- Years of Tire Trouble

Post by BE_ZERO_BE » Sun Jul 07, 2019 4:18 pm

HaroldRJr,
I have had the same problem with and without flaps.

Scottio,
The tires on '26 wire wheels is not the same as the earlier clincher tires.
The minimum clincher tire pressure is about 55 PSI.
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Re: McLaren Wires and Universal T Drivers --- Years of Tire Trouble

Post by Scottio » Sun Jul 07, 2019 4:32 pm

Thanks Bob.


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Re: McLaren Wires and Universal T Drivers --- Years of Tire Trouble

Post by Scott_Conger » Sun Jul 07, 2019 8:00 pm

Harold

if I am understanding your term "thick flaps" correctly, (https://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/Prod ... el-t/tires) I must respectfully disagree with you. Of the different products ( between tire flaps, and actual rim liners for wire wheels, the only product made of thick rubber are the product I've provided a link to...ie: tire flaps) These thick flaps are used entirely within the confines of the tire casing and do NOT mount or clamp between the tire bead and rim. They minimize or eliminate tube extrusion between the beads eliminating pinching and rubbing on rims. I know of no product which is pinched by the bead against the rim.

If I have misinterpreted what you said or you are refering to another product than I have shown, I apologise and would in fact like to know what that product is that you're speaking of...

Rim Flaps: https://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/Prod ... el-t/tires don't get captured by the bead/rim, either
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Re: McLaren Wires and Universal T Drivers --- Years of Tire Trouble

Post by ModelTMark » Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:27 pm

Scottio,

Just for the record, the Ford 21 inch wood spoke split rim and the wire wheels (first appearing in 1925) were not clincher style tires. These 21 inch tires, called "balloon tires" back then had a max PSI of 35. I run 30-32 PSI on my 27 Tudor. These are the same tires used on the 1928/29 Model A car too.

The earlier 33x3 or 33x3.5 inch tires where clinchers and required high pressure (60 PSI) to prevent them from rolling off the rim.


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Re: McLaren Wires and Universal T Drivers --- Years of Tire Trouble

Post by HaroldRJr » Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:40 pm

Scott C. - You are absolutely right! Now that I take the time to visualize the exact position of tire flaps inside the tire, they certainly don't in any way become "pinched" between tire bead and rim. Not sure what I was thinking, or maybe more correctly stated, I guess I just was NOT thinking! :oops: Thanx for causing me to give this more careful thought,....harold


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Re: McLaren Wires and Universal T Drivers --- Years of Tire Trouble

Post by ModelTMark » Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:37 pm

typo correction: clinchers were 30x3 or 30x3.5.


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Re: McLaren Wires and Universal T Drivers --- Years of Tire Trouble

Post by Nv Bob » Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:22 pm

This is non demountable clintcher being discussed
Allan no flaps tire beeds are thick and cover the rim completely
21" tires use 32-35psi clintcher use 55 to 65 psi
If you dont run right pressure on clintcher the tire will slip in the rim and i DONT mean check them once a year i check mine monthly
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Re: McLaren Wires and Universal T Drivers --- Years of Tire Trouble

Post by Scottio » Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:44 pm

Thanks Mark. I appreciate it. Three Ts and I’m still learning the academics.


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Re: McLaren Wires and Universal T Drivers --- Years of Tire Trouble

Post by Burger in Spokane » Mon Jul 08, 2019 1:15 am

You gotta think outside the box some times ...

Change some of the spokes, and tune the wheels into an egg shape. This will
hold the tire better, force slower speeds, and thusly cure the problem of tire
creep.

See ? Problem solved. Problem stays solved ! 😜
More people are doing it today than ever before !


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Re: McLaren Wires and Universal T Drivers --- Years of Tire Trouble

Post by Allan » Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:35 am

Fellows, the rim liners I cut from a used 13" tube outer diameter are approx 2.5" wide. Thus these do get jammed between the base of the bead and the rim. It may well help to jam the bead in an otherwise not-so-firm fit.

Allan from down under.

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Re: McLaren Wires and Universal T Drivers --- Years of Tire Trouble

Post by BE_ZERO_BE » Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:40 pm

Flaps do in fact make contact with the rim.
Below are photos of the flaps that were in my wheels.

1. As can be seen by the deformation of the flap, it was pushed down between the tire clincher walls.

IMG_1370.JPG
2. The red is wheel paint.
IMG_1371.JPG
3. This is how the flap seated in the tire.
IMG_1372.JPG
This may be different with other tires.
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Re: McLaren Wires and Universal T Drivers --- Years of Tire Trouble

Post by Scott_Conger » Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:09 pm

Bob

I think your experience will be similar on most if not all modern-produced tires. The old tires fit much closer together in the center...so much so that it was nearly mandatory to cut half-moon cutouts to clear the valve stems

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Re: McLaren Wires and Universal T Drivers --- Years of Tire Trouble

Post by BE_ZERO_BE » Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:41 pm

Scott,
I agree.
I have had to cut a "V" for the valve stem in the past.
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Re: McLaren Wires and Universal T Drivers --- Years of Tire Trouble

Post by Allan » Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:59 pm

I wish I had taken photos of the flat I just fixed on Henrietta. The wide beads on the old Olympic tyres do almost cover the base of the rim. There were cut outs in the bead from a previous fitting, but I did NOT use them, because they are unnecessary. If you fit the tyre, with valve stem in the hole, and BOTH beads at the same time, there is no problem getting the valve stem through the rim hole. The problem comes when one bead is fitted first, and then the tube is inserted. Naturally, as the unmounted bead of the tyre is pulled aside to get access to the valve stem, then the mounted side is dragged across the stem hole.
Resorting to cutting notches in the beads is a direct reflection of using a particular mounting procedure, not a necessity, even though it was sometimes advised in old literature.

Allan from down under.


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Re: McLaren Wires and Universal T Drivers --- Years of Tire Trouble

Post by Nv Bob » Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:56 pm

Allen i like that idea on the liner from a 13" tube
There is a big variation on tires the on inner seams
I seen them so fat you have cut a notch for the stem to so skinny there 3/4 opening
On my old wards im currently runnng i have a good 1/4"
Overage on the tire and width of the rim
Run them till they blow i guess
Lots variables to say this is a set problem
Pressure is key and if need rotate them sid to side if you notive stem walk
And burger if you stop churping those Tt tires off the line you get longer tire life


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Re: McLaren Wires and Universal T Drivers --- Years of Tire Trouble

Post by Luxford » Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:32 am

I agree all of the suggestions so far could be the answer to the problem but I see one more possible reason why this is happening and that is the rubber valves themselves. The rubber stems are not good enough to hold the high pressures. Putting the same type tube in ,same pressure and the same result occurs, if this is the problem the tire is going to still loose air no matter what, is roughened or used as a liner.

Sure, using metal valve stems will fix the problem but in the mean time the rubber stems are failing. So if you don't have metal stems you may need to look at the rubber stems themselves.

Putting 60-70 psi is way too much for the valve used on the new tubes we get.

Did the tire rotate and cut the valve or did the valve actually leak out the high pressure so the tire was well under inflated so it no longer had enough air to allow the tire to grip the rim? Any driving braking done when to pressure gets too low and the tire will rotate and rip off the valve. You assume the tire rotated maybe it just lost pressure first.

I found this problem when traveling across the USA in 2008, the valves have a metal stem which is only vulcanised ( or is it just stuck) only around the top end if the stem. Pressure can stretch the rubber and it can reach the tiny area where it is gripping the end of the valve stem. The pressure is so great the air breaks the seal and escapes and down goes the tire.

You can't tell this is happening when you are driving and unless it happens when you are stopped and you are close enough to hear the air leaking out. I had to buy small hose clamps to clamp around the valve stem. Once this is done the tubes will be Ok the pressure stays where it should be ( where you pumped it up to) I still have two tubes with the clamps on them from 2008. At one time I used a piece of welding wire twisted around a valve stem to get me home.
Her is a photo taken on the Pincer Creek tour in 2008 note the valve was cut along the stem, it was easy to peel it back away from the metal stem and only the very end is still stuck to the stem. You can also see the talcum powder which has snuck up along the stem with the air as it leaked out.
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Re: McLaren Wires and Universal T Drivers --- Years of Tire Trouble

Post by Allan » Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:20 am

Peter, are you saying the rubber stem tubes foisted upon us are not fit for purpose? Who'd have thunk it?
I put a couple of old valve stems to my wire buff a few days ago to rescue the brass for my scrap bin. They were vulcanized for the full length and the brass stems themselves were knurled for their full length for added grip.

Allan from down under


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Re: McLaren Wires and Universal T Drivers --- Years of Tire Trouble

Post by Dallas Landers » Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:26 am

That is what I found on my 33x5 tube on rear of mt TT. The leak was where the rubber meets the brass where the cap threads on. Very small leak. It has been inflated in my shop for 4 days now but smaller " less pressure" than when I put air in. The only way I found the leak was in my horse tank. Very nice tube with no patches. Installing another stem is the only way to save this one.


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Re: McLaren Wires and Universal T Drivers --- Years of Tire Trouble

Post by Allan » Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:14 am

Dallas, Peter's fix works. I have also used fine tie wire. Two rounds around the stem close to the tube and a repeat about 1/2" further out works well. Neither can be seen when the rims are fitted. Sounds crude, but it does work. Certainly worth doing if you re out on the road and wanting to get home.

Allan from down under.


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Re: McLaren Wires and Universal T Drivers --- Years of Tire Trouble

Post by D Stroud » Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:21 pm

Dallas, I agree with Peter and Allan, that fix works. That's the first time that tube has seen daylight since the late '90's. Dave
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Re: McLaren Wires and Universal T Drivers --- Years of Tire Trouble

Post by Dallas Landers » Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:25 pm

I may try it. I drove it a week before it went down.


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Re: McLaren Wires and Universal T Drivers --- Years of Tire Trouble

Post by D Stroud » Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:29 pm

Dallas, if you do end up replacing that tube, don't pitch it. It would be a good candidate for a metal stem. Dave
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Re: McLaren Wires and Universal T Drivers --- Years of Tire Trouble

Post by Dallas Landers » Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:30 pm

DAVE! I never throw anything away! Ask my wife😁


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Re: McLaren Wires and Universal T Drivers --- Years of Tire Trouble

Post by D Stroud » Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:32 pm

:lol: :lol:
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Re: McLaren Wires and Universal T Drivers --- Years of Tire Trouble

Post by AndyClary » Tue Jul 09, 2019 5:01 pm

I've heard of this problem on the McLaren wheels before. I've run a variety of clinchers, both 30x31/2 and 30x3 along with Buffalo wheels. I've never run over 55 pounds of air. Knock on wood, I've never slipped a tire. I couldn't imagine running some of the pressures recommended on this thread.

Andy

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