Winfield SR vs Zenith S4BF

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Winfield SR vs Zenith S4BF

Post by AdminJeff » Sun Jul 14, 2019 10:07 pm

My car came with the Winfield SR. It was in pretty bad shape. It leaked, the float wasn’t set correctly, the linkage was messed up. And the car ran like crap. I ended up buying a stock Holley NH on eBay and I refurbed it and while the car ran great, it was underwhelming to say the least. At least I had a benchmark st start from.
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A couple months later I bought a Zenith S4BF from Stan Howe.
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After a couple false starts (the float had a leak and one of the screws holding it together broke) I got it working well. Idle was good, and power increase over the Holley was noticible. A couple engine rebuilds later and a new transmission, and a new 280 cam and I could finally keep up with anyone on a tour with their “stock” engines. Last mont I added a Ricardo head to the mix and that was by far the best bang for the buck thus far. The low end torque was most affected by that upgrade - I can now climb my hill in with no Ruckstell and low band. Previously I had to use Ruckstell low band and inch up 1/2 mile of hill at 5mph.

Now the Winfield. The Winfield rebuild kits are hard to come by - I’ve emailed and called the guy who makes them a dozen times - he answered once and then I never heard from him again.. but Robert Weitzel had an extra kit and he parted with it after my pleading when he helped me rebuild my Ruckstell. So, yesterday I grabbed that kit and rebuilt the carb and got it all working. Today I battled with the friggin linkage for a few miserable hours and finally got it to the point I could test drive it. I had to richen the intermediate up a full 2 turns more than the 32 clicks starting setting on the intermediate to get it to even start.
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But, once I’d made a few on the road adjustments, holy cow. It’s night and day difference. Two places I really notice it - acceleration is seriously better and an increase in the top end speed which, frankly, surprised me. I didn’t believe the Stewart Speedo so I got my iPhone speed app out:
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Only once before have I been at 50mph and that was in Buelton on the 101 going downhill chasing Brad Lusk with the wind at our backs. This time I was on flat road, no wind.

My maximum top speed with the Zenith on flat road is about 45-47 mph. I’m NOT condoning driving at this speed in this car... but as a former racecar driver you always want to know what Bessie is capable of.

So, the Winfield will be staying on the car. It certainly is tricky to get those mixture knobs dialed just right and I suspect I’ll be fiddling with them for a good long time. Perhaps forever.

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Re: Winfield SR vs Zenith SB4F

Post by Craig Leach » Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:03 am

Hi Jeff;
The Vintage Ford volume 48 #4 July/August 2013 has a great article on the Winfield car adjustment.

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Re: Winfield SR vs Zenith SB4F

Post by AdminJeff » Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:30 am

Craig Leach wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:03 am
Hi Jeff;
The Vintage Ford volume 48 #4 July/August 2013 has a great article on the Winfield car adjustment.
You wouldn’t happen to have that issue would you? A pic of that article would be great...

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Re: Winfield SR vs Zenith S4BF

Post by noelchico » Mon Jul 15, 2019 9:02 am

Jeff, I wonder if the increase in top end is as much a factor of the different manifold as it is the carburetor itself. The later stock manifold has a moderate restriction compared to the earlier and the aftermarket manifolds that give "60% more air flow". At top speed, the Model T seems to be hungry for more air than the stock set up can give it. I think that at wide open throttle, the difference may be perhaps better air/fuel mixing but if the mixture of both are adjusted to be optimal, I suspect it's air flow volume. I admit I'm not an expert on carbs, or much else for that matter. I just enjoy running these old cars. Noel


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Re: Winfield SR vs Zenith S4BF

Post by StanHowe » Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:56 am

The S4BF was a great setup for stock t's in the day. A big part of their success was the manifold with the smaller ports where it mates to the block. This was zenith's answer to the poor quality fuel at the time. Those small ports act as a second Venturi to help break up the heavy fuel - kerosene basically - and get it to burn.
With today's fuels they probably don't do much.

Fwiw, I have a new old stock S4BF with the coating they put on them to keep them shiny in the displays. I wish I had the cardboard advertising board it was mounted to.
I also wish I had a source for new floats for them. My best success has been to make them or use one from a jaguar carb. I'd like to try blowing them from plastic bottles in a mold, too. Not enough hours in the day.

Anyway, Winfields can be tough to keep in adjustment but they really run!!!
Winfield and Miller Master are the hottest and Winfield is the best of those two imho.

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Re: Winfield SR vs Zenith S4BF

Post by jsaylor » Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:30 pm

Here is the article
2104WinfieldHV.pdf
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Re: Winfield SR vs Zenith S4BF

Post by AdminJeff » Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:26 pm

jsaylor wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:30 pm
Here is the article
2104WinfieldHV.pdf
ok, I have seen that and it’s been my guide all weekend. I drove the car to work today. Holy cow. what a difference.

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Re: Winfield SR vs Zenith S4BF

Post by Derek Kiefer » Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:35 pm

What do you have for exhaust?

My T has balanced crank, Z-head, 290 cam, etc. Top speed with the NH was 52mph. I put a Winfield 4H on a high-volume manifold, and went no better than 52mph... After I accidentally blew the muffler apart, I went 57mph with a bit more left in it! :o

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Re: Winfield SR vs Zenith S4BF

Post by AdminJeff » Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:58 pm

Derek Kiefer wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:35 pm
What do you have for exhaust?
Good question but I’m guessing it’s NOT a stock ‘21 muffler. It has an interesting little foot activated lever in the cockpit that opens and closes some type of valve in the muffler. I just keep it open all the way and removed the lever as it was an annoying source of a severe rattle (one of 1000’s).

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Re: Winfield SR vs Zenith S4BF

Post by kmatt » Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:52 pm

Jeff, In case you didn't know, in your picture of your Winfield SR the carb is missing the bottom half of the accelerator at the fuel bowl bottom. This is the part that gives the engine extra gas at quick throttle opening, like the accelerator pump on a more modern carb. On the Winfield S the bottom of the fuel bowl is rounded and doesn't have the accelerator at the bottom.


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Re: Winfield SR vs Zenith S4BF

Post by SurfCityGene » Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:33 pm

Ya And Jillian Robison, this years Montana 500 wining driver averaged 54.34 mph for a total of 495 miles with a Stock T and NH carb that passed the No-Go / Go gage tests!! I do have to say the cam shaft selection is one of the few options.
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Re: Winfield SR vs Zenith S4BF

Post by AdminJeff » Mon Jul 15, 2019 9:41 pm

kmatt wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:52 pm
Jeff, In case you didn't know, in your picture of your Winfield SR the carb is missing the bottom half of the accelerator at the fuel bowl bottom. This is the part that gives the engine extra gas at quick throttle opening, like the accelerator pump on a more modern carb. On the Winfield S the bottom of the fuel bowl is rounded and doesn't have the accelerator at the bottom.
Yup, I know. From all the research I’ve done it appears that some SR’s have the accelerator pump and some don’t. Mine doesn’t. Depends on how the dealer who sold the carb configured it.

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Re: Winfield SR vs Zenith S4BF

Post by kelly mt » Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:22 am

There is a guy in L. A. that makes kits for the SR, good quality. I ran a fuel pump and a regulator on my SR. My reading indicates a gravity float and needle and a pressure float and needle. I set the reg. at 1.5 psi. My SR has an accelerator pump and it works good. I get good mpg and it will idle good. Very good performance. I have to watch my speed as it will run right on up to 50 easily on the flat in this 27 Tudor.
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Re: Winfield SR vs Zenith S4BF

Post by AdminJeff » Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:57 am

Very interesting intake manifold... I like it. looks like mine was a hacked flange welded on to on a stock NH from what I can tell. Yours looks MUCH better, more volume. Would you mind getting me a close-up pic of it? I might get inspired one day and fabricate one like it.

My regulator pressure is set for 1 to 2 psi as well. Luckily I crossed that nasty bridge a while back when I installed the Zenith carb. I went thru 2 fuel pumps and 3 regulators before getting the Carter 6v pump and the Holley regulator.
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Re: Winfield SR vs Zenith S4BF

Post by kelly mt » Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:52 am

The manifold was an unfinished casting that I picked up on ebay. I had to make the carb adapter and the finish work on the manifold.
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Re: Winfield SR vs Zenith S4BF

Post by AdminJeff » Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:41 am

kelly mt wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:52 am
The manifold was an unfinished casting that I picked up on ebay. I had to make the carb adapter and the finish work on the manifold.
Wow. Really nice. Do you think the casting was one of a kind or mass produced? Ok I guess I need to start looking on eBay! I thought it was aluminum tubing at first.
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Re: Winfield SR vs Zenith S4BF

Post by kelly mt » Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:55 am

I think Smith & Jones used to sell them.


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Re: Winfield SR vs Zenith S4BF

Post by babychadwick » Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:03 pm

I just bought one a while back, Langs sells them.

https://www.modeltford.com/item/INTAKE1.aspx

On mine I increased the size of the mounts so that they can be drilled thru. This allows me to mount the exhaust manifold then mount the intake separate allowing for removal without having to disturb the exhaust.
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