"The best laid schemes of mice an' men...

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Steve Jelf
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"The best laid schemes of mice an' men...

Post by Steve Jelf » Fri Jul 26, 2019 9:22 am

...gang aft agley.

The plan was to drive to the Flatland T's meeting in Hesston, stay in Hesston or Newton overnight, and spend today and tomorrow exploring Santa Fe Trail historical sites.

IMG_3298.JPG
The first fifty miles were just a lovely ride through the countryside. But after stopping for gas in Eldorado I had to start on MAG because some electrical glitch had killed my battery (bought new in April).

IMG_3300 copy.JPG
About six miles up the road a loss of power accompanied by a certain noise told me I was running on three cylinders. I stopped and replaced the defunct spark plug, but couldn't get the car started again until a passerby with a tow strap got me going. Less than a mile after that a very bad noise underfoot had me stopped again.


IMG_3301 copy.JPG
See what's missing? It's attached to the half low band sticking out at the top of the picture.

IMG_3302.JPG
Waiting for Wally. I called my cousin to come and fetch us home. I'll go back this morning with the trailer and get the car.
The inevitable often happens.
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Re: "The best laid schemes of mice an' men...

Post by Rich Eagle » Fri Jul 26, 2019 9:30 am

I'm sorry for your problems but love the last photo.
Rich
When did I do that?

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Re: "The best laid schemes of mice an' men...

Post by RajoRacer » Fri Jul 26, 2019 9:44 am

What IS that at the top of the photo ? And, is that band material all wadded up ? Your reverse adjustment nut is not engaged into the washer.


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Re: "The best laid schemes of mice an' men...

Post by Dallas Landers » Fri Jul 26, 2019 9:47 am

Steve, your co pilot has the same disgusted look as you in the photo. I had a little trouble wednesday. Was going to town in the RPU to get some parts for work from the hardware. About 1 1/2 miles from home it started running ruff. A quick carb adjustment and smoothed out. About 1/4 mile and the same thing. This time nothing helped, it was sputtering and died. Gas was dripping from carb. I have had trouble keeping needle seat for carb adjusment in place. Well under the car I go. Sure enough the seat was laying in the bowl. Fixed that and now its flooded, wont start. A fellow stopped in a 40 ford pickup to see if I needed any help. Thanked him and said Im good, hoping that I was. Well out came the plugs and they were soaked. A quick spark from my lighter and burned off the plugs and then I sparked each cylinder to a nice yellow flame that poked its head out of each hole once in a while. I had a couple more offers for help by now and assured each one that I was going to get it going ,still hoping I was right. Well after buttoning everything up, I put the three tools away and jumped behind the wheel. Kicked the starter over and it roared to life. A little carb adustment and I turned it around and headed home. I will dive into carb later and see why the seat wont stay in.
Yours is a bit more serious than mine Steve. Aint these things fun? Every trip is an adventure in luck and skill wrapped in joy or disapointment. Hope its not a difficult fix for you as OCF is coming fast.


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Re: "The best laid schemes of mice an' men...

Post by Rich Bingham » Fri Jul 26, 2019 9:50 am

One of the million and one ways Model T machinery can fail I guess ?!?

So sorry for your trouble Steve. Shorty looked so happy to set out on the adventure too. I know we will all be very interested in the post mortem when you get to it. I suppose part of the fun of traveling via T-Ford is the "buzz" one gets from the thought that not everything may go well. I've found increased hearing loss has made me more comfortable with my Lizzie on long drives ! :lol: If something goes really wrong, you'll know it soon enough! :shock:
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Re: "The best laid schemes of mice an' men...

Post by Original Smith » Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:17 am

You have a real problem there. I have never seen band material all bunched up like that in all my life. You have to address the issue further. That almost looks scary!


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Re: "The best laid schemes of mice an' men...

Post by Tiger Tim » Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:26 am

Is that about half of the low speed band up at the top of the picture? Yikes!

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Re: "The best laid schemes of mice an' men...

Post by RustyFords » Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:28 am

Yikes.

Is that safety wire at the top of the photo?
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Re: "The best laid schemes of mice an' men...

Post by Kuhner » Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:58 am

Almost looks like part of a piston ring.
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Re: "The best laid schemes of mice an' men...

Post by Adam » Fri Jul 26, 2019 11:07 am

Looks like the band ear broke loose. It either wasn’t latched completely, or tore itself loose. Occasionally, bands have hairline cracks thru the latching lugs that could allow that type of failure.

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Re: "The best laid schemes of mice an' men...

Post by RajoRacer » Fri Jul 26, 2019 11:09 am

Now I realize that THAT is the remains of the low band - holy Crap - 40 + years in the hobby and that's a 1st !

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Re: "The best laid schemes of mice an' men...

Post by cudaman » Fri Jul 26, 2019 2:31 pm

So sorry about your misfortune, Steve. Hopefully there isn't any more serious damage. :(
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Re: "The best laid schemes of mice an' men...

Post by Ruxstel24 » Fri Jul 26, 2019 2:43 pm

That's a drag !! :(
I hope you can get it together without an engine pull.
Was it a button or slotted Band ?


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Re: "The best laid schemes of mice an' men...

Post by philip » Fri Jul 26, 2019 3:11 pm

guys look closely its not a wire you are seeing its the band from the edge way view. philip


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Re: "The best laid schemes of mice an' men...

Post by philip » Fri Jul 26, 2019 3:14 pm

likely caused by the tow strap. philip

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Re: "The best laid schemes of mice an' men...

Post by Steve Jelf » Fri Jul 26, 2019 3:31 pm

You have to address the issue further.

I'll say. So far none of the anti-Kevlar folks has said, "See? I told you so!" Yes, that's band lining material bunched up on top of the drums. The missing band ear is still attached to half the broken band, which is that piece sticking out at the top of the picture. And yes, this will be an engine pull for sure. I expect there's band lining fuzz everywhere I'll have to clean out, and I'll have to inspect all the transmission parts to see what went haywire. Chances are there will be several things to fix or replace.

IMG_3303 copy.JPG
I just got home a half hour ago and I'm sitting in front of a fan cooling off before I unload. I put the car on the trailer backwards so it would unload nose first into the shop. That made me a bit nervous about whether I had enough tongue weight, so it was a slowwwww drive home. I kept a speed limit of 40 mph.

IMG_3304 copy.JPG
I'll roll the thing into the shop, and maybe do a preliminary look-see, but really digging in will have to wait while I take care of some other chores. If my cursory inspection shows anything I'll post a picture.
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Re: "The best laid schemes of mice an' men...

Post by adave » Fri Jul 26, 2019 7:03 pm

Shucks !!

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Re: "The best laid schemes of mice an' men...

Post by thom » Fri Jul 26, 2019 9:30 pm

Steve, sorry you had trouble. I wish I had been there to lend a hand. It would be an honor, sir.

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Re: "The best laid schemes of mice an' men...

Post by Steve Jelf » Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:16 pm

IMG_3305 copy.JPG
Got it off the trailer and in the shop.

IMG_3306 copy.JPG
How do you anchor the come-along? Drill a hole.
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Re: "The best laid schemes of mice an' men...

Post by Ruxstel24 » Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:33 pm

philip wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 3:14 pm
likely caused by the tow strap. philip
I have pull started several Ts over the years and never had any issues. I always use high, not low.
I guess if low was used, maybe. Steve will have to tell us...

When I was a teenager, I took up a set of rods for a friend of my dad's and got a couple a little tight. Starter would not turn it but a little, so we drug it down the road. I popped it into high and slid the tires....got momentum again and hit the starter at the same time and she fired up !! Never heard of any problems later.

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Re: "The best laid schemes of mice an' men...

Post by Steve Jelf » Fri Jul 26, 2019 11:15 pm

No, this wasn't caused by the tow strap. It's been coming on for awhile. It explains why the low pedal had needed more than the normal amount of adjustment.

And yes, you do pull start in high gear.
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Re: "The best laid schemes of mice an' men...

Post by Steve Jelf » Sat Jul 27, 2019 1:08 am

Houston, we have a problem.

IMG_3307 copy.JPG
I was expecting a lot more lining fuzz in the oil screen...

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...but most of the lining stayed in one mangled piece.

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Here's one end of the low band.

IMG_3312 copy.JPG
The rest of the band is still stuck in there. That's it over the reverse spring. Meanwhile, it seems some of our drum is missing.
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Re: "The best laid schemes of mice an' men...

Post by It's Bill » Sat Jul 27, 2019 6:20 am

Ugh. I hope that wasn't the new engine. Looks like we should add the bands to items that should be magnafluxed during a rebuild. Good luck! Cheers, Bill


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Re: "The best laid schemes of mice an' men...

Post by Dallas Landers » Sat Jul 27, 2019 7:53 am

You think the drum let go and took the band with it?

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Re: "The best laid schemes of mice an' men...

Post by Thorlick » Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:33 am

Steve,

That is a real bummer. I have suffered broken drums like that four times... Until I stopped using Kevlar linings. I feel that there are only two kinds of Kevlar drivers, those who have broken a drum and those who will. Too bad you have changed categories!

I hope you have a replacement low drum. This might be a good time to explore the wonderful world of wooden band liners!

My ’27 is down also. I made a dumb mistake and wiped a rod bearing. Close inspection shows enough problems to rate an engine swap... Hopefully the original block will go back in to mine.

Best luck, TH[\size]
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Re: "The best laid schemes of mice an' men...

Post by Allan » Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:47 am

Steve, are you suggesting that a cracked drum may have been shredding the lining somewhat, causing the need for the frequent adjustments? I would then expect more fuzz. From the photo of your stopping place I presume you were in top gear, and thus the band was not even engaged. It reall is a puzzle.
Best wishes with the re-build.
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Re: "The best laid schemes of mice an' men...

Post by Thorlick » Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:13 am

Allan,

It is quite common for a broken drum to let go even when it is not in use by it's band.
I once backed out of my drive only to loose the drum about six blocks later.

Steve's drum was toast back just before he noticed it started needing low band adjustments. That tow may have accelerated the catastrophic failure but the drum was already destroyed. Steve just waited until the band joined the drum.

My take is Steve overheated his low drum and cracked it some time ago. It finally flew apart on the road trip.

Magnafluxing the band wouldn't help anything since the problem was the broken drum. (IMHO the Kevlar liner was the cause of the problem.)

TH
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Re: "The best laid schemes of mice an' men...

Post by Steve Jelf » Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:37 am

I suspect that the drum had been cracked for quite some time before it went to pieces, and that the crack had been attacking the lining, pulling it loose rivet by rivet. That would explain the repeated need for adjustment. With the lining gone the cracked drum attacked the bare metal band. When the band went the free piece jammed against the cracked drum and broke it. That's one theory of how it went. It will be interesting to see what else I find when I get it all apart.
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Re: "The best laid schemes of mice an' men...

Post by Rich Bingham » Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:43 am

Now it's out :o . Those who like Kevlar will adamantly deny a correlation, those who are leery of it will be even more suspicious. It would be great if there were a way to take a reliable poll on drum failures to see if a marked majority of them involved Kevlar linings - the result may or may not be conclusive, but could provide a better indicator for making a sound decision when choosing a lining material.
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Re: "The best laid schemes of mice an' men...

Post by cudaman » Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:00 am

So Steve, you're temporarily without a running T? How close to done is the runabout? If it's close, if it were me I'd shove the touring to the side for a while and concentrate on getting the runabout operational. :)
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Re: "The best laid schemes of mice an' men...

Post by Dallas Landers » Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:10 am

Been there Steve, one not done and other one broke! :(
Until the 1st of July that was my story. Both on the road now. :D

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Re: "The best laid schemes of mice an' men...

Post by Steve Jelf » Sat Jul 27, 2019 12:52 pm

...I'd shove the touring to the side for a while and concentrate on getting the runabout operational.

That's the plan. Not only do I need a running T, I need to get that runabout's engine out of the way and make some space before I start on the touring.
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Re: "The best laid schemes of mice an' men...

Post by Tim Rogers » Sat Jul 27, 2019 3:41 pm

Just to be clear- those are Kevlar linings, correct?
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Re: "The best laid schemes of mice an' men...

Post by Scott_Conger » Sat Jul 27, 2019 5:52 pm

Steve

Typically a cracked drum will feel very mushy underfoot and will lint up the screen very fast. Your lack of lint in the screen and symptoms of having to constantly tighten low band and yet no linting, and a broken band to boot, makes me wonder if in fact you had a cracked/broken band for a good while until it finally became two pieces and camed under the pedal boss and broke the drum.

Very sorry to see you sidelined by this.
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Re: "The best laid schemes of mice an' men...

Post by Allan » Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:05 pm

Scott, that was my reading too. Little lint, so no gradual scraping away at the lining by a cracked drum. Just a monumental let go and ensuing shredding in one big piece. It had to be a sudden failure to be able to bust the band as it did.

Allan from down under.

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Re: "The best laid schemes of mice an' men...

Post by Tim Rogers » Sun Jul 28, 2019 8:48 am

Mr. Jelf- have you made a decision regarding your rebuild/repair?
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Re: "The best laid schemes of mice an' men...

Post by Steve Jelf » Sun Jul 28, 2019 9:10 am

"I'll think about that tomorrow, back at Tara."
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Re: "The best laid schemes of mice an' men...

Post by Norman Kling » Sun Jul 28, 2019 9:31 am

It's surprising what can happen because of a dead battery! I wonder it that had anything to do with the other problems? You would have thought the magneto would have been affected because of parts floating around in the transmission.

I think it is just a co-incidence the battery was dead.
Sorry that you had so much trouble with your T. Hope you get one of the T's running soon. I have been through some of the same problems, except never had a broken band. My drum problem started because of bad low cam and notch which caused me to tighten the low band too tight which caused dragging on the drum even when the pedal was not engaged. The kevlar will take much more heat and not wear out as fast as cotton or wood, however when there is a constant drag will also overheat the drum and cause it to crack.

I am preaching to the choir, however.
I hope no more problems are found and that you get on the road soon enough to enjoy the rest of the summer touring season.
Norm

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