Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

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Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

Post by babychadwick » Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:16 pm

While not a model T I believe this is on topic. Recently a friend who passed and loved old cars had a funeral procession so we (my son and I) took the '38 Zephyr (4 door sedan). A message was just delivered to me that if I was seen driving the car with him in the back seat (he is back there with the doors locked) the police would be alerted and I would be arrested! Normally I wouldn't pay much attention but he happens to be involved with the fire department. I have spoken with the police as we are often driving the car and they are aware of the vehicles construction and that he rides in the back unrestrained. Where we drive the maximum speed is 45 and its a divided straight road so we aren't talking highway speeds.


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Re: Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

Post by Humblej » Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:32 pm

I do not understand. All states require young children to be in the back seat. Although that may be an airbag thing, the back IS where kids sit. If his issue is there are no seatbelts, well, old cars are grandfathered out of that, so again where is his beef? I would chalk it up to an unknowledgable but well meaning citizen, who has no authority to issue a ticket or recommend arresting anyone. Stupid people are everywhere, dont let it ruin your day.
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Re: Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

Post by John kuehn » Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:41 pm

Maybe the guy was thinking that the kiddo should have been in a belted car seat. Your suppose to do that in Texas. Don’t know about anywhere else. But the car didn’t have factory seatbelts in it .Depending on the judge it would be a judgement call. I have a feeling he would rule for the kiddos safety. But again it would depend on the judge if it went that far. My opinion of course.


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Re: Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

Post by Dallas Landers » Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:42 pm

Sounds like long nose do gooders. A ticket would be the 1st order if the law would support such a thing. Not sure about our local laws but my grandkids ride in my old cars and never had a problem. I guess I would have a few choice words for the do gooder but I wouldnt go looking for them. It would suprise me if they had kids of their own. Usually those are the ones telling everyone else how to raise their kids. Keep that young man interested in this old iron, he will be the future.
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Re: Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

Post by henryford2 » Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:57 pm

Lock me up
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Re: Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

Post by Henry K. Lee » Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:14 pm

Well, The DOT laws do state that antique/vintage vehicles follow the "Rules" of year of manufacture! So what is the beef? I had an issue once with my 1960 English Ford Zephyr, yes a child is to be restrained in the back seat, if the vehicle has a restraining device and mounted per instructed by the manufacture.

Some People!

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Re: Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

Post by babychadwick » Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:18 pm

The point being he may be in a position to convince officers to give me a hard time as opposed to some random citizen.


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Re: Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

Post by Bmettli » Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:19 pm

:roll: My 4 year old daughter sits in my lap all the time and helps drives the car down our quiet neighborhood blvd. cop has come past before and given a wave and smile.

Kids bounce around all the time in our car IF it’s in the neighborhood on sides streets. HOWEVER I wouldn’t dream of taking them on the open road in traffic. People are plain nuts, scary enough driving them in a normal car :)

Throwing a stroller on the car running board is a whole different animal!
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Re: Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

Post by Oldav8tor » Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:43 pm

Another consideration is that an improperly installed car seat is often worse than no car seat at all. In Michigan, the rules apply are those in force when the car was built....that doesn't mean you can't be hassled by ill-informed officials, but it won't stand.
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Re: Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

Post by BHarper » Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:57 pm

On our way to prison:


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These grandchildren of mine call the grandfather on their father's side "Grandpa."
They distinguish me as "Grandpa Model T."


If we do not introduce children to our cars who will be interested in them after we are gone?

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Re: Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

Post by KWTownsend » Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:33 pm

Chad-

Tell them, "I appreciate your concern regarding the welfare of my children. I take care of my children as I see fit, as I'm sure you do with yours. As a mandatory reporter of child neglect and abuse, I'm sure you would understand those are the instances when I would stick my nose into the business of someone else raising their kids. I hope you can join us on a tour someday."
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Re: Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

Post by Burger in Spokane » Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:37 pm

So, the do-gooder had the pistachios to put his name on the note ?

When a situation like this comes up, I want to be securely in a position to take on a
challenge. In this case, I'd dig in to know the law forward and back, and perhaps even
keep one of those legal eagles in my sidepocket, in case the do-gooder decides to
become a crusader. Then operate well within what you know to be a legally secure
position, and let your do-gooder go pound sand.
More people are doing it today than ever before !

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Post by FreighTer Jim » Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:46 pm

Will your local law enforcement let you share a cell with the Young Uns’ .... 🧐

Cause then you can do the Hokey Whilst In The Pokey ... 😎


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Re: Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

Post by jachady » Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:49 pm

In Wisconsin children under 5 must follow child safety seat and restraint laws. If the car doesn't have the proper measures to restrain, then they can't ride. Over 5 and the child has to be restrained if there are restraint devices (factory standard or aftermarket).

Its going to be so hard not to take my little girl out in the T for 5 years. :(

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Re: Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

Post by ewdysar » Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:10 pm

I guess that it depends on the traffic laws in your state, but most states have laws like this:

In Georgia: Child Car Seat Laws
Children under 8 years old must ride in an approved safety seat or booster that is suited for their height and weight.
Children 8 years old and under must ride in the back seat...
Children over 8 years old must wear a seat belt.
Any child over 4 ft 9 in may use a seat belt in lieu of a booster seat.
Kids not requiring child seats may ride in front, provided he or she is older than 8 years old.

Current California Law:
Children under 2 years of age shall ride in a rear-facing car seat unless the child weighs 40 or more pounds OR is 40 or more inches tall. The child shall be secured in a manner that complies with the height and weight limits specified by the manufacturer of the car seat. (California Vehicle Code Section 27360.)
​Children under the age of 8 must be secured in a car seat or booster seat in the back seat.
Children who are 8 years of age OR have reached 4’9” in height may be secured by a booster seat, but at a minimum must be secured by a safety belt. (California Vehicle Code Section 27363.)
Passengers who are 16 years of age and over are subject to California's Mandatory Seat Belt law.

It’s pretty easy to google the child car seat laws in your own state, these were the first two that came up for me without specifying a location.

While seat belt restrictions are generally waived for vintage vehicles that were not originally equipped, I have not seen a similar waiver for car seat use for small children, regardless of the vehicle.

So whether or not we personally choose to comply with the law, breaking the law may result in tickets and/or fines. Whether one exceeds the posted speed limit, uses their cell phone while driving, or carries small children in any car without restraint, recognize that you run the possibility of getting the attention of the local constabulary. Maybe they will care, maybe they will not. But as various police officers impressed upon me in my younger days, “ignorance of the law is no excuse”, and in my experience, willful disobedience fares no better.

I am not supporting either side of this discussion, just providing facts for consideration.

Eric

PS. My daughter who just turned 3 has only been in my Ts when parked. Her mother won’t let her ride in the car(s) illegally.


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Re: Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

Post by babychadwick » Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:21 pm

Eric those laws are for most every state just as seat belt laws are for every state. They do not address that there are no mounting options for cars that never came with restraints. As old v8 stated it may be more unsafe to place a child in improper restraints. Placing a child in a car seat is fine so long as a car seat is restrained. As the law states a child "must be in a seat" but that seat has no means of restraint and tying someone into a seat in a moving car will injure that child unless some restraint is fabricated. Much testing is done in order to make restraints safe. I for one don't intend to offer my car up for testing and am not an engineer so it might as well be restrained with dental floss.

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Re: Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

Post by AndyClary » Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:45 pm

What it comes down to is the mood of the officer involved. The laws don't say car seat if vehicle has belts, it says must be in a properly secured car seat. If the car seat can't be properly installed then the law can and probably should say the child can't ride in the car. It's probably an unpopular opinion on this forum, but it's not safe for a baby/toddler to ride unsecured.

Andy

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Re: Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

Post by ewdysar » Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:48 pm

I think that John C. got it right for children that require a suitable car seat with “ If the car doesn't have the proper measures to restrain, then they can't ride.” Once you get to the age and/or size that they can legally use just a seat belt, then the YOM considerations start to apply. But that is merely my interpretation of the laws as stated above. Attempt to argue the seat belt exception into car seat requirements at your own risk.

Eric


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Re: Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

Post by Scott_Conger » Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:58 pm

Chad

In part, from Florida Drivers' Handbook: The driver and front seat passengers must wear seat belts. The seat belt law applies to passenger cars manufactured beginning with the 1968 model year, and trucks beginning with the 1972 model year. All restraint requirements are subordinate to the beginning statement above.

In any other instance, in FL it's a $60 ticket and a few points on your license. As far as "giving you a hard time", they can only give you the hard time that you allow. I would imagine an appology and pleading the case that you were not aware would relieve you of 1/2 of all stops if you are polite. If the officer has indeed got it in for you, You're required to show license and insurance and registration, then sign the ticket. You don't even have to speak to them. Certainly do not argue. They cannot make it any worse for you than that. Period. No arrests. No searches. This isn't Cuba or Venezuela. Yet. Remind your "friend" of that. Any such ticket recieved in that car could easily be beaten in court. Though the police are expected to enforce the law as written, with the plethora of laws that can be broken, and the myriad of details and variances of those laws, it places the officer at as much disadvantage as the motoring public.

I know that most folks do not know what the Constitution says, but we still live in a free country and are free to keep our mouths shut. It's a skill few have mastered, as it isn't easy or natural for most.

Don't lose sleep over this and enjoy your car with your son. I've never read anything from you that indicates that you are reckless or have anything but sound decision making ability. Do what you believe is prudent.
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Re: Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

Post by Mark Osterman » Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:26 am

I can’t imagine driving a model T with anything in my lap.


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Re: Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

Post by DHort » Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:03 am

Mark, try to imagine a small child in a Speedster. As long as they can sit still, but then that is only down the block at a very slow speed. You at least have sides in your car.


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Re: Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

Post by Allan » Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:36 am

I was anti the child seat restraint laws introduced for old cars in the eastern states when they were introduced. No restraint, no ride until the kids are 8 years old. Then they brought it in in our state.

My son and I devised mountings in the back seat of my 1924 tourer, two sets actually. The loops are welded to an angle iron frame, the frame is screwed down to the seat base and the seat base riser. The child seat comes with the belts to make the connection. The tether strap which stops the seat tipping forward, goes between the back curtain of the top and the back of the car and is attached to spare tyre iron which is bolted to the frame. The actual fitting on the tyre carrier is one taken from a modern car. My son's auto engineer friend suggested all we need for the fitting to pass inspection was to link the angle iron frame to the car frame underneath. We may do that yet. All of this is unseen when the seat is removed.

I have overcome my initial opposition to the law. There is nothing quite as re-assuring as knowing our precious cargo is restrained in one place and does not require constant checking. He gets to see more of the countryside from his raised seat, and when he gets bored with that he nods off just as he does in the modern.

As our engineer friend said, our set-up may not be engineered to failsafe expectations, but if it ever gives out, we are already in deep trouble. Meanwhile, the good officers have been satisfied.

Compliant Allan from down under.


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Re: Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

Post by John kuehn » Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:53 am

Without even thinking about it or seeing pictures of folks driving along with small kids in their lap I wouldn’t drive any vehicle much less a Model T with kids in my lap. That ain’t smart.


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Re: Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

Post by Adam » Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:18 am

Read the state statutes for your state instead of asking opinions here. They are the factual information you need and are available online on your state’s website.

To my knowledge, most states can not prevent children from riding in a car without seatbelts if seatbelts were not original equipment.

Did you know: It is a violation of FEDERAL LAW to sell any car in which you have installed seat belts that have not been Federally approved! (I think this tells you what the Federal Government thinks about the safety of “Homemade” seatbelts)


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Re: Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

Post by Burger in Spokane » Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:47 am

One more reason to own a TT flatbed. Pile the kids up and strap 'em down like a
load of lumber. Too easy ! :shock:
More people are doing it today than ever before !


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Re: Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

Post by Derek Kiefer » Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:47 am

My response to that would not be appropriate for this forum.


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Re: Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

Post by John Dow » Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:55 am

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Re: Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

Post by Russ T Fender » Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:16 pm

I think Florida deleted the exemption for cars not originally equipped with seat belts, at least as it applies to children and the use of car seats. That is what a police officer told me when he pulled me over for having two of my grandkids in the back seat of my touring. He just gave me a warning but it sure ruined things for my grandkids. If he was wrong I'd like to know about it because my grandkids keep begging me for rides.

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Re: Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

Post by ewdysar » Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:06 pm

Hey Val,

I think that the officer that gave you the warning is probably correct. Seat belt requirements and car seat requirements are not the same thing. While many states (maybe all states) have waivers for use of seat belts based on OEM or YOM, I’m not aware of any state that extends those waivers to car seat requirements. As you can see in my first post in this thread, while most states have car seat requirements for small children and those requirements are similar in intent, each state has different criteria for when a child can “graduate” to using just a seat belt. So check your local DMV/DOT regulations to see when your kids or grandkids qualify for using seat belts alone, then the YOM seat belt waivers go into effect and they become “Model T eligible”. I recognize that this is a conservative interpretation of the laws as stated, but I don’t think that here is any chance of running afoul of the law by following these guidelines.

We’re all free to obey laws as we see fit, just be prepared for the consequences of those decisions.

Keep crankin’
Eric

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Re: Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

Post by RustyFords » Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:18 pm

I don't take threats very well...like...not well at all. I'm one of the most pleasant, happy, smiling, generous people you'll ever know....until you threaten me or my loved ones (or any random child or otherwise helpless person).

After that, I get quiet and mean. But that's just the me that the military and my grouchy old grandfather created. My wife has asked me to work on this character flaw, and I've tried, but at 50 years of age, neither she nor I hold out much hope of it changing in any significant way.

So...I wouldn't have handled the threatening note you received very well at all.
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Re: Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

Post by ewdysar » Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:09 pm

Hi Don,

I’m going to start by saying that I am not judging the person who wrote the note nor your response.

But I found your statement “ until you threaten me or my loved ones (or any random child or otherwise helpless person). ” worthy of discussion. It sounds like you are a straight forward, upstanding guy. So if you observed a situation where you felt that a random small child was being put in harms way, would you a) confront the situation physically in person, b) write a note to avoid the possibility of blowing the situation out of control, or c) walk away and do nothing.

Consider that the person who wrote the note apparently thought that Chad was putting a child in harms way and that he did not want to get in Chad’s face about it, but also could not just walk away in good conscience. So just think about what you might have done if you were him... To me, that guy sounds like a lot of good people in this group, and if we heard the story from his perspective, we might be commending him for trying to right a wrong without causing a scene.

Again, I’m not judging anyone’s opinion here, just encouraging everyone to think about all sides of whole situation. If after doing so, your position doesn’t change, then good. You’re probably living up to your personal moral standards. And I will admit that I am not always the man that I would like to be, but I’m trying....

Keep crankin’
Eric

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Re: Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

Post by RustyFords » Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:19 pm

Eric. I'll be concise.

1) The child was not in harm's way.
2) If the do-gooder was a real man (or woman), that person would've respectfully spoken to the driver instead of leaving a note.
3) The do-gooder wasn't a real man (or woman), but that person could've still written a constructive note, suggesting alternatives. But no...they threatened to get the law involved and incarceration.
4) I said I don't do well with threats to children. The child was not being threatened. Not even close.

My reclusive neighbor's yard started looking like hell recently. He was in clear violation of the HOA deed restrictions. We're not an uppity neighborhood, but we don't want it to look like the the houses are abandoned. Instead of threatening the neighbor with a report to the HOA, I went and spoke with him respectfully. He said he'd been neglecting the yardwork, partially because his mower is a piece of junk and said that he'd get on it asap. I helped him mow and edge that weekend. We had a beer. No threats. Looks like the magneto in his mower is filthy and needs cleaning/adjusting. I'm going to fix that for him as soon as I get a chance.
Last edited by RustyFords on Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:06 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

Post by babychadwick » Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:50 pm

The message delivered was not in the form of a note. He went to my ex to have her tell me (I have full custody). Yes, he knows me. Yes, he had ample opportunity to come over and talk to me as we had been waiting for the funeral procession to start with all the cars stopped and people walking around for maybe an hour.

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Re: Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

Post by Fordwright » Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:08 pm

I think antique cars are exempt from most safety regulations in most places, which constitutes a special privilege to those allowed to drive them on public roads. It also entails a responsibility to keep yourself and your passengers as safe as possible. Remaining on back roads and streets, and limiting the number of trips you make, particularly carrying passengers helps reduce the risk of serious injury.

For someone wanting to drive their vintage car as their every-day vehicle, they should consider mitigating some of the risks by upgrading features like lights, axles and brakes, hopefully in ways that don't alter the vintage appearance of the vehicle too much. Replacing the original plate glass with safety glass is also an excellent idea. Seat belts are also a very good idea.


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Re: Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

Post by Sparknwire » Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:25 pm

Personally speaking I would tell that busybody to rub rock salt and bite me. Old cars never came with seat belts just like turn signals. It’s your preference if you want to put them in

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Re: Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

Post by Henry K. Lee » Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:31 pm

So it is OK for your child to play contact football, get CTE, be a burden on society and only talking about all the good times in high school football days. Un fit for military service due to a school sport injury. I think those same morons are in government passing these seat belt laws!!!?

Hank

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Re: Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

Post by ewdysar » Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:33 pm

Good enough Don.

After your concise and careful introspection, I can see that you are strong, just, and righteous, and the other guy was weak and scum. In your judgement, the child was not in harms way. In his judgement, the child was in harms way. You are Right, and he is Wrong. I can live with that.

Anyway, I’ve got no dog in this hunt. I usually know better than to step into this kind of conversation.

Back to lurking...
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Re: Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

Post by Charlie B in N.J. » Thu Oct 31, 2019 4:21 pm

I am always totally amazed at how many of you completey ignore and (worse) make light of common sense safety when it involves children. Don't you realize that even if a child is in an approved safety seat properly belted in and correctly used in a Model T the chances of coming out unscathed in an accident are just about zero? What the heck don't you understand ? Driving with a child in your lap ? I wouldn't have the pits to even tell anyone I did that never mind posting a picture of it. You need to be locked up not waved at. It's damn near child abuse. Does something horrible need to happen ? Because you're begging for it. Don't bother trying to justify stupidity either.
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Re: Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

Post by steve plowman » Thu Oct 31, 2019 4:28 pm

As the youngest of 4 sons i rode in the back of a station wagon sitting on the spare wheel as a kid with the dogs for company, as a father both my kids had proper seats and were in the back. Times move on but its a hard call. I lost my son at the age of 20 in a car accident (when he was driving) after 20 years of trying to keep him safe but do not regret letting him ride in the back of a pick up or sit lap belted in the back of a classic car when he was younger.
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Re: Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

Post by Susanne » Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:11 pm

If I'm in a roadster, does this mean I have to lock my children in the turtledeck, strapped to a carseat? Since, of course, they can't be in the front seat...

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Re: Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

Post by aDave » Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:17 pm

NH Rules...yours may be different:

TITLE XXI
MOTOR VEHICLES
CHAPTER 265
RULES OF THE ROAD
Special Rules
Section 265:107-a
265:107-a Child Passenger Restraints Required. –
I. No person shall drive a motor vehicle on any way while carrying as a passenger a person less than 18 years of age unless such person is wearing a seat or safety belt which is properly adjusted and fastened. Except as provided in paragraph II, no person shall drive a motor vehicle on any way while carrying as a passenger a person less than 18 years of age unless the motor vehicle was designed for and equipped with child passenger restraints in accordance with the safety standards approved by the United States Department of Transportation in 49 C.F.R. section 571.213.
I-a. No person who is less than 18 years of age shall drive a motor vehicle or autocycle on any way unless such person is wearing a seat or safety belt which is properly adjusted and fastened.
I-b. No person shall drive a motor vehicle on any way while carrying as a passenger a person less than 7 years of age unless such passenger is properly fastened and secured by a child restraint system which is in accordance with the safety standards approved by the United States Department of Transportation in 49 C.F.R. section 571.213. If the passenger is 57 inches or more in height, the provisions of this paragraph shall not apply.
II. A person shall not be guilty of a violation of this section if the motor vehicle the person is driving is regularly used to transport passengers for hire, is a school bus weighing more than 10,000 pounds or is a school bus weighing less than 10,000 pounds that was manufactured without safety belts, or there is an individualized education program statement contraindicating the use of restraints, is a vehicle manufactured before 1968, is a motorcycle as defined in RSA 259:63, is an antique motor car or motorcycle as defined in RSA 259:4, or is being operated in a parade authorized by law or ordinance, provided that the parade vehicle is travelling at a speed of no more than 10 miles per hour.
III. Any driver who violates the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a violation, and shall be subject to the following fines:
(a) $50 for a first offense.
(b) $100 for a second or subsequent offense.
IV. A violation of this section shall not be used as evidence of contributory negligence in any civil action.
V. A conviction for violating the provisions of this section shall not preclude prosecution of any other offense for which violation of this section might constitute an element.
VI. [Repealed.]
Source. 1983, 45:1. 1987, 240:1. 1989, 302:1. 1993, 21:1. 1995, 6:1. 1997, 244:1-4. 1999, 227:1. 2000, 19:1. 2003, 55:1. 2005, 177:24. 2006, 142:1, 2. 2008, 274:32. 2013, 246:1, eff. Jan. 1, 2014. 2015, 222:6, eff. July 1, 2015.


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Re: Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

Post by Dallas Landers » Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:21 pm

Chad, yes you should be upset! This is getting way out of hand. Bashing others and attacks on character. This thread will probably be gone soon so I am giving you my opinion to your question.
Please keep the young ones involved in the old cars. Its funny how government control becomes normal even in the older generation after many years of having it shoved down your throat. Common sense will keep you from harm most times the way it has for generations. Come on, we all grew up without seat belts and survived riding in the back of pickups. In 35 years as a fifefighter I have seen traffic accident deaths down. Not as much seatbelts as crumple zones built into vehicles. I have seen seatbelts save lives and take them. Some here would have a fit if the seen what Amish kids do on the farm and roads . Ok, now some can start burning me down for my opinion but there it is. Bottom line , keep the kids having fun in the old cars because they are the future of this great hobby.


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Re: Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

Post by Scott_Conger » Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:25 pm

Val and Chad:

State of Florida Seat Belt Laws
In a car crash you are much more likely to be killed if you are not wearing a seat belt. That is why Florida has seat belt laws. The law states that the front seat passengers must wear seat belts. This law applies to any car manufactured since 1968. in addition, all passengers under 18 years old must wear a seat belt or be otherwise restrained by a child car seat. It is against the law to operate a vehicle if all the passengers do not meet these standards

https://www.dmvflorida.org/florida-traf ... -belt-laws

As I had stated previously, most law enforcement is not going to know about this. Regarding child restraints, they all require a seat belt and mandatory installation/use of seatbelts in FL are for cars manufactured 1968 and later
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Re: Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

Post by Russ T Fender » Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:47 pm

Well I guess my grandkids won't be able to ride in my cars until they are 18. Hope I live long enough to see that day. Right now I would have to live to be 91 and that assumes I won't have more grandkids! There is a risk in everything we do and a reward associated with that risk! Depriving me and my grandkids from an opportunity to bond and enjoy a hobby that I would like to pass on to them seems to be a situation where the risk pales in comparison to the rewards! Just my opinion!


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Re: Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

Post by Scott_Conger » Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:51 pm

Val

you must not have looked at my link. They're perfectly legal in FL.
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Re: Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

Post by Charlie B in N.J. » Thu Oct 31, 2019 6:07 pm

adave's post; you cannot give rides to 18 year olds or younger unless the vehicle was designed with proper belts & restraints. They are not wrong and yet still folks here are still justifying their actions. Your kid can't ride in a roadster ? Well no. Not safely. You lived through riding unstrapped ? Just luck. That's all. And if you didn't you wouldn't be bragging about it here. I stopped giving rides years ago after the rash of single car accidents posted on this Forum. I'd rather be dead myself that be responsible for crippling or killing one of my Grandkids. Not going to happen. Wise up people someone will get hurt or worse. It's happened before.
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Re: Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

Post by It's Bill » Thu Oct 31, 2019 6:21 pm



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Re: Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

Post by Scott_Conger » Thu Oct 31, 2019 6:22 pm

You're a hard sell, aren't you Charlie? First, let me say how sorry I am that you have to live in New Jersey, and second, that I see that your state has indeed removed all parental input on this topic.

With respect to the OP:

Florida has seat belt laws. The law states that the front seat passengers must wear seat belts. This law applies to any car manufactured since 1968.

Above is direct cut/paste from the law.

Any adult in a supervisory role over a minor may not believe it is safe, and may not allow it, but it is not illegal

Someone should tell MTFCI that they are supporting illegal goings-on with the Jimmy Walker Award. Not.
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Re: Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

Post by aDave » Thu Oct 31, 2019 6:41 pm

Charlie,
One must read ALL OF THE RSA...
look at Roman Numeral II and see these words (please)...

II. A person shall not be guilty of a violation of this section if the motor vehicle the person is driving is...........a vehicle manufactured before 1968,........is an antique motor car or motorcycle as defined in RSA 259:4,............

All "true" Model Ts are exempt in New Hampshire....if you "modify" a '26 Sedan (or any or vehicle made in '68 or earlier) all bets are off.

The problem is not all folks read all the laws in their entirety.

Dave

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Re: Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

Post by Susanne » Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:01 pm

Charlie B in N.J. wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 6:07 pm
adave's post; you cannot give rides to 18 year olds or younger unless the vehicle was designed with proper belts & restraints.
I took my driving test in a '15 roadster without seat belts (or turn signals... or back up lamps... or 2 tail/brake lights... or NHTSA approved rollover protection) at the ripe old age of 16 - guess the government should be sued for putting me in such grave danger by having me take a driving test in such an inherantly unsafe vehicle... (or at least for putting the general public in danger by issuing that driver's license issued under such heinous and dangerous conditions...)

I still miss the good old days before we lived in a fear-based litigatuous society that we have to prohibit anybody from doing everything.

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Re: Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

Post by Fordwright » Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:08 pm

Safety is being aware of the risks and dealing with them safely.
Safety has little to do with piling on endless rules, and expecting everyone to respect them all.


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Re: Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

Post by Russ T Fender » Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:56 pm

Scott I am confused. I read your link but the cops told me that the exemption for seat belts in cars built prior to 1968 does not apply to children. It is true that I don't need seat belts but according to the police I do have to have them if I want to take my grandkids in the car.
I have been stopped twice and got the same story each time. The cops may be wrong but that doesn't stop them from pulling me over.


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Re: Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

Post by babychadwick » Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:29 pm

While there are many for and many against child restraints the fact of the matter is that they MUST not be allowed.

Once you go down the dark road and agree that restraints are required, modifying a vehicle to install them based on the law then you must require that they be installed AND tested properly. If you go down this road than EVERY vehicle MUST have restraints for every person in the vehicle and these restraints must pass DOT inspection.

It is impossible to test every antique car's restraints as most vehicles would fail period!

In my mind this is a dark road that will give teeth to the politicians that desire to remove antique cars from the roads completely.


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Re: Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

Post by Bmettli » Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:34 pm

Boy, talk about out of hand, CHARLIE. You’re right, I guess I need to do locked up. This post thread is off the rails with insidious comments such as that. In the meantime, I’ll continue letting the entire neighborhood and families enjoy riding along in the car, along safe and quiet roads, while the long noses judge from the side. Completely uncalled for - I’ve been on this forum for a long time, and it’s the ones that fling poo that give the T community a bad name.
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Re: Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

Post by Norman Kling » Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:03 pm

I don't know how many will scroll down far enough to read this, but I think a very important point has been ignored. The point is that if a child should be killed or seriously injured in a crash, not only will the driver be devistated, but might also face a criminal sentence for driving without proper restraint.

My grandchildren are already adults and my great grandchildren all live over 1,000 miles from here, so we don't often have opportunity to drive them in the T's, but I would only let them ride in the driveway or very short trip on local roads. If they accompany us for a longer drive we would have them ride in another car which is properly equipped. This would be same if they don't come to visit with proper car seat.
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Re: Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

Post by babychadwick » Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:19 pm

The future of the hobby is dependent on the next generation.

Of course riding in an antique car is dangerous, this goes beyond children. If as an adult you can't be responsible for your own choices (seat belt laws) than your passengers are your liability for riding in an unsafe car. Personally I think riding in a smart car is dangerous. I think it is far more dangerous to tailgate than to ride in an antique car with a proficient driver.


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Re: Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

Post by Scott_Conger » Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:23 pm

Chad

I'm not a lawyer...I simply have an average reading comprehension and the law in front of me.

regarding
The cops may be wrong but that doesn't stop them from pulling me over.
, you are absolutely right...there is a myriad of issues for which a stop can be made...depending on the part of the country, some are more legitimate than others. What I do know, is that police, like me, and you, are neither Legislators nor Lawyers and the patchwork of laws and exemptions within those laws makes their job pretty difficult at times.

If you really want to go 'round and 'round with an officer, try YOM tags on your car in some (legal) places. Many officers, particularly younger and non- car-savvy ones will absolutely without a doubt argue that you cannot register an old tag for your car. Here in WY, I have just discovered that if your car "did not come with a factory mounting arrangement on the front of the car" you don't have to display two tags out here. That came out in 2015 and I'll bet that not 1 in 10 officers will know that.

Sounds like you need to visit a lawyer/friend to understand the law better than us amatuers, and then carry a copy of the law with you...or quit driving kids around. If you do visit a lawyer, and he's worth his salt, he'll review the RCW (as mentioned earlier in a different post) and conclude that it clearly states that since you cannot strap your kids into something that doesn't exist, you don't have to strap them in, and that the fact that automobiles built prior to 1968 were not required to have restraints, you are bound to use only those safety devices the car originally came with (none). Many moms and dads will not be happy with that, and they (still) trump all. And if they do, then good for them...it is their right and responsibility to raise their children as they see fit.

I don't encourage any harmful or hazardous actions by anyone, but do wonder just how crowded New England would be if everyone off the boat had officials like our legislators around during westward migration and insisted all children be strapped to their Conestoga, or left home. No one would have made it past the Mowhawk Valley. I don't doubt that those parents loved their children, and yet embarked on a journey that was somewhat more hazardous than a trip to Tastee Freeze.

Isn't it ironic that the gov't ENTIRELY exempts itself from requiring children in their custody (school bus) to be buckled in? Roughly 17,000 children under the age of 19 visit emergency rooms each year for injuries associated with school buses.

There comes a point in a country's existence where when the citizens fear the gov't, there is....

Some would say we're there.
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Re: Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

Post by babychadwick » Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:47 pm

Governments should fear the people, people should not fear the govt. Or the difference between a citizen and a subject?

I have been given a warning for no brake lights (59 tbird). The officer said he did not see brake lights when I was stopped at the light. I asked him if he saw my brake lights come on when he pulled me over, he response was "yes, im giving you a written warning" I was pulled over in a '28 roadster for not having turn signals and informed all cars in FL must have signals. After a while in his car he came back and confirmed I was right and proceeded to do a safety inspection. I received a ticket for a boat I had at anchor for missing registration numbers (they were painted on) and another for no anchor light (at 1PM). Upon confronting in court the officer "couldn't remember the details" and dropped the charges. There are many more from friends of mine where we are given the chance investing our time and money to prove our innocence. I try not to make waves and ruffle any feathers with the locals.

Back on topic I was also stopped in the 59 tbird with my son in the front seat (no car seat seat belt) and told that I probably shouldn't have the window down and something to attach a car seat wouldn't be a bad idea. Considering he is in the front seat I would toss his seat in and thow a strap around the seat. Totally unsafe in the case of an accident. In the Zephyr I was approached by a cop (had out of date YOM plates still on as I was waiting for DMV to finish the plates, it was registered with the paper plate in the window) at school and the topic of registration and my son came up. He informed me that it was legal and that they had received 911 calls regarding it. My concern is this do gooder being part time volunteer firefighter might be able to make things harder than an average do gooder.


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Re: Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

Post by Scott_Conger » Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:12 pm

My concern is this do gooder being part time volunteer firefighter might be able to make things harder than an average do gooder.
Frankly, I cannot imagine how, but you know him/her and we don't.
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Re: Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

Post by D Stroud » Fri Nov 01, 2019 6:41 am

Damn, I don't know how all of us kids survived back in the '50's/'70s riding in the back of pickups without seat belts, in the back of trucks hauling grain without seat belts, riding on top of a load of hay on a truck without seat belts, riding on tractors without seat belts, riding bicycles without helmets, riding behind a car(or truck) pulling an upside down car hood in the snow without seat belts, drag racing on a local highway(we never did it when there was any traffic), etc.,etc. We didn't need any Government or State regulations, we just used common sense. It seems like that is becoming a thing of the past. JMHO Dave
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Re: Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

Post by Oldav8tor » Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:57 am

In my opinion, common sense is not that common....at least not these days. One reason for all the safety devices is the "unexpected." Who leaves home planning to slip off the road and hit a tree? On our color tour last weekend we passed a modern car that did just that - hit it so hard the front end nearly wrapped around and touched. The teenaged driver was standing beside it trying to figure out how to explain it to his dad. Back in the days before crumple zones, seatbelts and airbags, he'd have probably gone thru the windshield and suffered life-threatening injuries. A few years back we had a case of grandpa letting his 5 year old grandson ride on the tractor with him while he mowed.... kid slipped and fell into a flail mower......

While I agree that in some cases the authorities have gone overboard, we must admit that we are at greater risk driving our T's than a modern car. We're adults, we accept the risk. Where kids are involved, we need to understand the risks and do what we can to mitigate them. That is my definition of "common sense."
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Re: Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

Post by Fordwright » Fri Nov 01, 2019 12:22 pm

Considering the slower speeds, the limited amount of driving and the comparative lack of traffic congestion in the days of the Model T, the number of car accidents and related injuries was shockingly high.

http://www.observationsblog.com/odds-n- ... -the-1920s

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Re: Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

Post by AndyClary » Fri Nov 01, 2019 2:15 pm

Getting back to the original post, yes, you are right to be upset. Regardless of the opinion of whether or not to secure a child the author of the note approached the situation wrong. By using threatening wording he escalated a situation that did not previously exist. So, chalk it up to bad manners and move on.


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Re: Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

Post by Fordwright » Tue Jun 02, 2020 1:10 pm

I'm not sure that getting upset is the answer. Recognizing the risks and doing something about them makes more sense.


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Re: Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

Post by tdump » Tue Jun 02, 2020 2:00 pm

I think the whole problem for the original poster was a horses backside fireman working with his EX to make life just a tad bit more miserable for him. as in, "don't take my child in that old car" type thing.
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Re: Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

Post by VanEpsFan1914 » Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:20 pm

Sorry to hear about the whole reason for this thread (funeral processions mean someone worth remembering is gone from us.) Requiescat in pace.

I haven't got an "antique" yet (though I'm planning for it one day) but my very old and slow Toyota Corolla will be one next year: sunk it in a ditch a few months ago, lost control of it on a dirt road & put it right off the side of the road. I was going 28 miles an hour-ish as the speedometer tends to exaggerate.

When it stopped moving, I got out & realized the nose was down & the back wheels were up in the air. Had it been a Model T I would probably have been fine too. But if it were an older touring-car, the nose going down would have added a catapulting effect when it tossed the back up, and anyone back there would have gone out or over the sides.

I was able to put it back in the road in perhaps twenty-five or thirty minutes by corduroying a ramp together out of logs & jacking it up progressively; had it been an antique car it would have been too easy just to come out. Not sure what year of Model T switched away from the front-seat gasoline tank & went to a cowl tank, but if the cushion is just sitting on the frame there, I guarantee you a jolt like that would have put it out of its place. And as a Ford has a lot more room in it than a Corolla I can see how you could get hurt pretty severely even in a low-speed collision.

Yes, there are a lot more dangerous things for your kids to be doing, than riding around in an early car. But yes, automobiles are not safe (even when they are parked, they still are a terminal drain on the pocketbook.) I'd say the neighbor might have overstepped a bound of commonsense but if you don't know, then let's quit reviling the neighbor. I mean, I've seen people swear up and down they were scared of horses & wouldn't ride unless they were pointing a gun at the back of the animal's head. They were also rather ignorant, growing up among people who were either abusive or ignorant or both towards their animals.

I'm 21 now. I didn't come into a world of antique tech like you guys. To me, it's all been a big discovery & a lot of fun once I learned; used to think windup clocks were a hassle and double-barreled guns a slow & clunky waste of time, that gramophones ate records and that rotary phones weren't practical. Now I've got a little bit of all that stuff. (Except crank phonographs. I have too many of those & like it this way.) It was getting familiar with the tech that convinced me it was O.K. to use it every day, and so I do. Most of my things are pre-1950 except for clothing and well, we're working backwards in time there too. This is a cheaper & more relaxing way to live.

Why I bring that up is, most people who criticize an old car and the idea of hauling kids in it probably never saw one up close before. I used to think a 1930s car was scary & slow but got a lift in a '36 Ford Deluxe--honestly I'd love to have a car like that but can't afford it. Even the upholstery was stock original & it smelled like history in there.

Get your nosy neighbors hooked on vintage things & they may understand that some risks are worth taking. I wouldn't criticize them super harshly yet... They might just think the '38 Lincoln is a death-trap (and compared to modern cars all of the old-timers are) but seriously, it's OK to wish for someone else's safety. They just went about it in a high-handed and petty manner by deciding to bypass commonsense with a straw man threat that the cops are going to laugh off.

As far as anonymity, maybe they're like me & just kind of shy about stuff unless they actually know you right up in person. I mean, they might think of old-car hobbyists as street rodders who frequently are aggressive (Probably some on here that are OK but I've never seen a very pleasant street rodder in my life.) Oh well.

If the Police Department is OK with hauling kids in antique cars, and you guys are riding in a literal funeral procession, I don't see a huge issue with it. And a 1938 Zephyr sounds like a much safer car than a Model T--and is a very pretty car by the way; congrats on preserving one of those!

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Duey_C
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Re: Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

Post by Duey_C » Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:16 am

My grandson's were in the box of the modern pickup many times after school last fall. On private properties no less.
They prefer to climb on up and in. Fresh air and the world at their fingertips.
I worried at first about being turned in and then the middle fingers on both of my big hands started getting hard...
A friend said a bit last October that really spurred me to write this mess here.
If it was raining or snowing or I needed to run to town, In the back seat, boys. Let's start a movie. We did.
Or we enjoyed the outdoors, the bumps on the driveway and the tree branches... Good times.
Some of you would turn me in for letting a little boy ride IN the garbage can on Mondays. Sometimes...
He thought that was the coolest ever! Yes. The garbage can trailing behind the truck.
My goodness. What have we become?
WE do our own thing out here in Greater MN. As Maw and I see fit.
At least on my turf. As I see fit. And we'll pile 'em all in a model T again! A Runabout!
I refuse to drink the kool-aid they're trying to give.

Shoot, I'm the only one that ever gets injured anymore anyway... :oops:
Heck, little kids get antique tractor rides too! Here.

Please excuse this if this off base. I respect you all very MUCH but some things...
Since I lost my mind mind, I feel more liberated

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Kaiser
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Re: Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

Post by Kaiser » Thu Jun 04, 2020 5:51 am

Someone said something in an intervieuw i read last weekend that really hit me, it was a mother who lost a daughter after a hitchhiking incident (the daughter was murdered by someone who picked her and a friend up on a long trip they made hitchhiking through Europe),
I have to translate this from Dutch but i think i got it right, she said;
"The amount you really live is determined by the amount of risk you are willing to take"
I think she hit the nail on the head and i think it was a very brave thing to say from her perspective,
In a way I guess it can be applied to our hobby too, wether you just drive in parades with your grandkids or take your speedster on the Montana 500.
Keep on T-ing (however you see fit ;) )
When in trouble, do not fear, blame the second engineer ! 8-)
Leo van Stirum, Netherlands
'23 Huckster, '66 CJ5 daily driver

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John Warren
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Re: Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

Post by John Warren » Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:43 am

My grand daughter use to go with me occasionally, I have a 26 touring car and a 25 rpu. Her mother was fine with her riding in the seat of either but I let her ride in the back of the topless rpu sitting down with her back up to the front of the bed, this was only while were idling down the Las Vegas Strip, and her mom wouldn't let her ride with me any more. My grand daughter was 14. Sadly that was the last time she has been in a model t. I loved being able to spend some quality time with her. So I guess I'm saying that be sure and ask first. I have competed with my race car and in order to do so, I had to have a seat belt. Not a big deal to install. I know If you put a seat belt in your car for your son, it would be installed well. I remember when seat belts were first becoming a thing, many were installed with just big body washers under the floor of the cars. On our old cars, I kinda wonder if it makes them any safer. Good luck and keep your head up! Obviously a touchy subject, and you are correct that every time we give a little, the noose just tightens a little more. Good topic.
24-28 TA race car, 26 Canadian touring, 25 Roadster pickup, 14 Roadster, and 11AB Maxwell runabout
Keep it simple and keep a good junk pile if you want to invent something :P


fschrope
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Re: Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

Post by fschrope » Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:07 am

I'm wondering how you're are supposed to get your newborn baby home from the hospital.

Car seat in the back seat of the car????


Rich Bingham
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Re: Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

Post by Rich Bingham » Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:12 am

:o the midwife don’t deliver at home ? :o
"Get a horse !"


John kuehn
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Re: Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

Post by John kuehn » Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:16 am

Your grandkids riding in our old cars falls into the same category of letting them play or roll around the floor playing with your pet pit bull dog.
If your not careful there can be disastrous consequences.
Your taking a chance and in the end if there is an accident it won’t be because of the Model T or the dog.


Dallas Landers
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Re: Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

Post by Dallas Landers » Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:33 am

I would not let kids ride on the running boards on my T! Never! If its ok with the parent and they have a place to sit then pile in. Let kids be kids. My grandkids even ride bikes with no helmet or bubble wrap.

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Fordwright
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Re: Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

Post by Fordwright » Fri Jun 05, 2020 11:18 am

I grew up riding in vehicles without seat belts and in the back of pickups before it was illegal. You learned to hang on, especially when someone decided to make a turn at the last second.


jmemjr
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Re: Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

Post by jmemjr » Fri Jun 05, 2020 5:02 pm

These photos tell you what side of the fence I fell over on...
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pic 5 (2).jpg
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pic 1 (2).jpg


John Codman
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Re: Am I right to be upset? Children in old cars

Post by John Codman » Sat Jun 06, 2020 5:39 pm

I will admit that I have not read all of the above posts. I don't think that I am callous, unfeeling, or reckless. Any time that I have a person in the T for their first ride I tell them that the T was designed to be a replacement for a horse and wagon more then 100 years ago. Virtually no thought was given to it's crashworthiness. If that is a problem, don't get in. Somehow, I don't think that a funeral procession would be a problem. Any person who would involve him/her self in that is an idiot. Sorry, but that's my opinion.
Update: I checked the Florida seat belt law and it states that it does not apply to any vehicle not required to be equipped with seat belts under Federal law. I could not find the section of Federal law that states which vehicles are exempt (life is too short), but I doubt that even the Feds are not dumb enough to require belts in a vehicle that was not structurally designed to have them. The individual states may have their own laws as to whether children have to be belted in; in that case, it might be possible that small children might not be allowed as passengers in a vehicle not equipped with belts. It's something that you probably should check in your state.

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