1915 Parts

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Vrayfoster
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1915 Parts

Post by Vrayfoster » Tue Nov 19, 2019 2:05 pm

Three questions:
I have a mid June 15 touring car with magneto headlights. The steering column was never made to hold wires or a button for a magneto horn but it has the wooden block under the upholstery to mount a bulb horn.
1. Is a single twist Rubes horn correct for my ca?
2. I have a single twist Rubes horn, no front screen or screen ring. Where might I find the front screen mounting ring?
3. Are high F hubcaps the correct ones, and if so does anyone know where to get 3 of them as I have 1 already.
Any assistance would be appreciated.


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Re: 1915 Parts

Post by Original Smith » Tue Nov 19, 2019 5:11 pm

Those horns are pretty plentiful. Many times they are interchanged incorrectly. A true '15 horn has a scalloped bracket. As far as I know all 13-15 horns have the same hole spacing. For detailed information contact Jim Lyons in West Virginia.


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Re: 1915 Parts

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:31 pm

I am surprised Larry Smith did not comment on the "high F" hubcap. As I understand it, the high "F" hubcap was a one year only about 1913, and they are difficult to find in good condition. The '14/'15/'16 brass hubcaps are very similar to the later ones, with a slight difference in the outer edge of the outer end. The rim edge for the brass era caps is slightly thinner if I recall correctly, similar to the "high F" cap. Later caps have a slightly thicker rim edge. Sorry, I do not have any photos I can post that would help.

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Re: 1915 Parts

Post by Corey Walker » Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:34 pm

Here are some pictures. You can see the scalloped mounting bracket, also the 90 degree elbow that screws on instead of the straight tube used previously. The 1915 bracket is different than previous years as well. There is a brass tube not pictured that covers the reed and holds the bulb.
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Re: 1915 Parts

Post by Steve Jelf » Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:48 pm

In the encyclopedia Bruce says the electric horn was introduced early in 1915, so I don't know why your June car doesn't have the small tube and the button on the steering column. Maybe the column has been changed.

Whether you go with bulb horn or magneto, if you want to be heard you'll add a mechanical horn. That's what you see in a lot of Model T photos from the teens. An aftermarket mechanical horn is considerably louder than either of the factory installed horns.
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Re: 1915 Parts

Post by Original Smith » Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:53 am

There are two styles of high F hubcaps. 1913, and 1914-17. The 1917's are nickel plated. The 1913 hub cap is very much like the 1914 style, but the F is much larger and bolder. It takes some practice to get used to the two styles.


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Re: 1915 Parts

Post by Terry_007 » Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:38 am

I believe the "Rip Van Winkle" 17 has the tall F hubcaps. Hopefully someone has a photo they can post. My 14 has them.
Terry

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Re: 1915 Parts

Post by Steve Jelf » Wed Nov 20, 2019 1:41 pm

Screen shot 2019-11-20 at 12.36.34 PM.png
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Re: 1915 Parts

Post by Vrayfoster » Wed Nov 20, 2019 4:58 pm

I do have the wrong rubes horn by the responses received. Thanks to all who responded, I appreciate the time you took to assist me. Now as to my steering column could have been changed, I have a picture, circa 1941, of my car in a field with gas headlights and 14 rear fenders on a late June 15 car, so that is a very real possibility.

I might have one correct high F hub cap if someone could look and say yea or nay. I think Larry saw my car in Mill Valley and he said something about the hub caps being different. I've been looking for the correct high F caps to buy but they don't seem to be available, so.

I went to a trophy shop and asked if they could laser engrave the hub cap lettering on a flat cap. They said yes. My next stop will be at a weld shop to see if they can fill in low F hub caps with brass and I can flatten the tops then back to the engraver. However, the hub cap metal is very thin so I suspect it will warp when brazed and this idea will fail. Likewise, I have no idea what the cost of engraving or brazing might be.

Another option. There is supposedly a sheet metal shop in El Monte that makes the EJ 9 brass tail light top for a 15 car. If enough people were interested in high F hub caps maybe the shop could be located and the owner might make a few.
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Re: 1915 Parts

Post by Colin Mavins » Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:21 pm

this is an easy fix for your hub cap problem ,just leave your hub caps you have on your car when someone tells you you have the wrong caps on your car tell them if they find the right ones you will put them on. you will either get the right ones or they will leave you be . I remember we had a 14 tail light on the 12 in Calgary . that is what Dad said 3 weeks later the proper tail light came in the mail. Cheers from great white north


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Re: 1915 Parts

Post by Vrayfoster » Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:43 pm

Colin:
I like that!

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Re: 1915 Parts

Post by Steve Jelf » Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:52 pm

Assuming that what you propose to do is possible, I expect it will be ungodly expensive. I would leave them be as Colin suggests or go with the brass caps available from the parts dealers. If you insist on exactly the right caps, go with these while you look for them. Most people, even Model T people, won't know the difference.

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Re: 1915 Parts

Post by Jim, Sr. » Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:58 pm

The 1915 horn does not need to be a Rubes horn. Standard and Nonpareil also supplied the bulb horns to Ford. These two horns were made by Standard. The black horn pictured has a reed, and is actually quite loud.
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Re: 1915 Parts

Post by Hap_Tucker » Thu Nov 21, 2019 8:41 pm

For Victor,

It sounds like you have a desire to make your car as close to the way it left the factory as possible. If that is your desire, I would suggest you consider purchasing the Model T Ford Club International “Judging Guidelines 7th Edition.” They are available from the vendors (Lang’s at: https://www.modeltford.com/item/JG1.aspx ). Also obtaining a copy of Bruce McCalley’s “Model T Ford.” It is out of print, but his widow still is making the digital version available see: https://www.mtfca.com/phpBB3/viewtopic. ... ley#p45271 I would also recommend an earlier book “From Here to Obscurity” which also contains additional photos about the cars. Note – it as well as all the other books often contain some inaccuracies. We are still learning more and more about the cars.

Finally, for a good thread on the 1915 horns please also see: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/17 ... 1307324170 It also has some information on when the dash shield was changed so that either a bulb horn or a magneto horn could be used with that dash shield.

Respectfully submitted,

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Re: 1915 Parts

Post by Hap_Tucker » Thu Nov 21, 2019 8:43 pm

For Steve,

I always enjoy your comments and they are almost always “right on.” But in the case of a Jun 1915 Model T, I believe Bruce and others indicate a bulb horn could still easily be a factory item and for that matter we cannot rule out an electric horn either.

You are correct that Bruce says the electric horn was introduced early in 1915. But he also shares some additional comments about their introduction and use:

From https://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/1915.htm Bruce states:

The bulb horn, now mounted under the hood, was replaced with a magneto powered electric type beginning in January 1915 on some cars, and in all production by October. (There is no evidence of a klaxon horn ever being supplied on a Model T Ford as factory equipment.)
The key phrase “…beginning in January 1915 on some cars, and in all production by October.”

And From: https://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/doc15.htm it has the following clarifying information:

JAN 23, 1915 Acc. 575, Box 19, Ford Archives
Will use 10,000 electric horns. If satisfactory, these horns will be used to replace bulb horns in manufacturing. A note to reduce the stock of bulb horns.

JAN 30, 1915 Acc. 575, Box 19, Ford Archives
T-7915 horn wire. T-7916 horn switch wire. T-7917 horn switch wire. T-5018 electric horn mounting bolt. All for use in the 10,000 cars referred to in the letter of January 23. (According to another letter dated April 17, 1915, the bulb horns were still being used on some production at that date.)

OCT 16, 1915 Acc. 575, Box 19, Ford Archives
Electric horns specified for all 1916 cars. Notes that 10,000 electric horns were used in 1915 but the wording is such that there may have been more.

My reading of The Model T Ford Club International “Judging Guidelines 7th Edition” indicates they also support that either style could have been used in a Mid Jun 1915 Model T (ref page 9 of the 1915 section).

Again, Steve – thank you so much for your many many excellent and accurate comments and your great support to our club and hobby! Your "one man tours" across America are an inspiration to so many of us. Thank you!

Respectfully submitted,

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Re: 1915 Parts

Post by David Tipton » Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:21 am

Victor,
I have a 1915 Touring serial number 909707 which puts the assembly date in mid September 1915. The car only has a bulb horn and a steering column with no holes for an electric horn. I realize the column could have been replaced at some point in time however I don't believe it was. Mr. Ford was insistent that all parts be used before new modifications/changes were used, perhaps this was the case with your and my car.

I'm open to any different opinions.

Dave Tipton

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Re: 1915 Parts

Post by WayneJ » Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:32 am

My runabout was also built mid September, 1915. My steering column also shows no evidence of holes for an electric horn button.
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Re: 1915 Parts

Post by Original Smith » Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:05 pm

Those hubcaps are easy to get confused on, especially the difference between a true '13 and '14. Keep in mind, Ford had different suppliers for those. The depth of the octagon can be different. I probably have more 1913 hubcaps than anyone, and there are differences among them. For anyone interested, the "F" in the script is much bolder than the '14-'16 caps. The '16 style was carried over into '17, as I have nickel plated examples of those too. The easiest way to tell is to put a '13 hubcap next to a '14, and the difference will be apparent. I have the '14 style hubcaps on my 1915, but don't have any photos of them.
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Re: 1915 Parts

Post by Mountainrider » Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:00 pm

When I got my May built 15 I believe it still had the original firewall and it had the notch for the bulb horn and no holes in the steering column. It also has the grooved pedals and the hole for the speedometer swivel in the steering arm. Found no holes in the firewall to suggest a speedometer was ever mounted. My brake plates have the reinforcing ribs. My T did have an original long life when it was converted to a pickup and was used for deliveries from the 20’s to the 40’s. I’m sure many things were changed out to keep in running that long.


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Re: 1915 Parts

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:11 pm

In general, the 1915 in many aspects is classic Ford contradiction at its best. Many original factory "records of changes" still exist. Sales literature, brochures, and advertisements abound. Countless histories have been written. And hundreds of good survivors (both unrestored and restored) exist to this day. All that coupled with thousands of original era photographs, "should" give a clear picture of what is right! And what was done when. But it doesn't.
Original records and sales literature clearly state that the speedometer was standard on all cars! Surviving cars and era photographs say a lot of cars did not have speedometers. Written histories do offer an explanation. The manufacturers of the speedometers could not keep up, and due to shortages, Ford offered a small rebate if a buyer elected to accept the car without a speedometer. So one could say that works.
The horn is not so clear. Numerous sources clearly say that electric horns began on cars early in the '15 model year. That is true. On the enclosed body cars. But just when did electric horns begin on the open cars? That is not so clear. Many people reading from many sources are convinced that their spring '15 T should have an electric horn. But I don't think so. Can't say I "know" the right answer. But I do know that bulb horns were used on many open Fords much later than expected. I know this because a very good friend of mine years ago had a June '15 touring car that had nothing more than a cosmetic restoration and an engine change back in the '50s. Except for the engine change, not much on that car had ever been taken apart. The original engine number was still on the original title (dating the car to late June), and the original firewall and body side panel had all the markings of a bulb horn. The car had had a hand Klaxon for many years.
Since then, I have looked at literally hundreds of era photographs of open '15s and '16s.
Another detail to note. Is when did the lamp trim switch from brass to black? This detail has also been sorted out a bit closer. Although the answer isn't clear-cut, it is clear that the HCCA's old rule (long since abandoned) that all 1915 Fords to qualify must have brass trim on the lamps (I knew people back in the '60s that had to change trim to qualify!). Original records, era photos, and survivors, all indicate that the black trim began showing up on cars leaving the factory fairly early in July of 1915. Just how long did cars also leave the factory with brass trim? Is not so clear. Most era photos are not dated that way. No accurate record actually exists. Unfortunately, much of the empirical record (original survivors) was destroyed by complying to the HCCA's silly rule. However, there is some good evidence (mostly empirical) that brass trim did leave on cars as late as September of 1915. In a past forum discussion, one car owner had evidence that his October '15 car had brass trim from new, but that may still be debatable.
Brass trim and horns are connected, in that many era photographs show bulb horns on cars with black trim on the lamps! Just how late were bulb horns used from the factory on open cars? We may never get a solid answer. However, there is a fair amount of empirical evidence on surviving cars that bulb horns were not rare as late as September or October of 1915. Again, in a past discussion a couple years ago on this forum, a couple people claimed that very original open Ts in their possession had clear evidence of bulb horns as late as January of 1916.
My guess would be that a bulb horn in January '16 would be the exception, not the rule. Even in December of '15, I would expect far and away most Ts had electric horns. But if someone wanted to put a bulb horn on their December or January restoration? I wouldn't say they were wrong.

Much of the preceding IS my opinion, based upon hundreds of cars I have seen, dozens of owners I have known, thousands of photographs I have looked at through a magnifying glass, and numerous discussions on past forum threads.

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Re: 1915 Parts

Post by Susanne » Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:12 pm

I'll jump in. My August 15 car has no electric horn nor the button for it. As it was technically a "branch" car (parts shipped to a branch and built there, although this one was from the exhibition line at the PPIE) I'm not surprised... then again, Typical Ford SOP was apparently "use whats on hand", and this would have been no exception.

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