.....The Battle Continues....!

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Cigarboxrob
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.....The Battle Continues....!

Post by Cigarboxrob » Sun Dec 22, 2019 5:40 pm

....Hello, my Model T ‘family!’ Happy Holidays to all!

....I’m having a blue Christmas. That’s bleeding green-As in: “Money.”

....As many of you have PM’d me about “my” car, I was and am the victim of illegal title jumping on a closed title. Neither the previous owner nor the eBay seller have come forward-Not even so much for the promised, but *worthless* “Bill of Sale” in the State of New Jersey, where: “Bonded Titles” are illegal as well.

It looks like I may have to sue.

Did I mention that the car is still in no danger of starting? As our company’s 1918 fires over on a 1/4 crank, I replaced the starter switch, (Which was broken beyond reasonable repair.) checked all connections and with the: “New Battery” the seller installed shortly before shipping, finally got *one* complete revolution of the engine-A slow: “Lug.”

...So much for: “Needs nothing to run and drive.” It’s all in the auction description, as many have painfully reminded me-To those who bid on the car? Be glad *I* clicked the: “Buy it now.”

Checking the battery on my 6V tester, it shows at 95%.

Looking at the Generator, I noted something: Damn if it doesn’t look like the: “Cut out” hasn’t been replaced! Not only does it look like it’s replaced, but the stampings look *identical* to the 12v conversion kit being sold on websites.

Is there a relatively foolproof way to test whether or not the 12v conversion was performed? I should mention that the car has a coil/distributor setup...If so, could it be that the seller inadvertently installed a 6V battery on a 12V system, which is causing the one single “chug,” of the starter and nothing more?

I’ve given up contacting him after two weeks have gone by and I haven’t received his useless: “Bill of Sale.” Fellas and ladies, I think I’ve been formally *had.* Thoughts? (Other than: “Sorry, you’ve been ‘had.’”)

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Re: .....The Battle Continues....!

Post by Henry K. Lee » Sun Dec 22, 2019 5:54 pm

Robert,

I think I can say for others too on this matter, Very sorry this happened to you! It just SUCKS.

I personally always tell people, do not purchase the car at market or fair price unless the seller can show proof of a real title in their name. If they can not, parts vehicle price only. Sad facts of life. I and many such as yourself have been stuck in these situations with great remorse.

Again, Sorry for all the grief!

Merry Christmas!,

Hank


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Re: .....The Battle Continues....!

Post by Cigarboxrob » Sun Dec 22, 2019 6:30 pm

Thanks, Hank!

...Any ideas how to check for a prior 12V conversion? Based on the lack of honesty thus far, I believe that the car may have been converted in the past and the seller simply got caught up in his own lies and forgot or simply didn’t know....And the “....New 6V battery” is really under powering the system-Hence, a new starter switch, 95% battery power and a lone: “Chug” from the starter while on a charger.

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Re: .....The Battle Continues....!

Post by Ruxstel24 » Sun Dec 22, 2019 6:43 pm

Sorry bout the bum deal Rob...
With a distributor, the coil should be marked 6V or 12V.
If it is 6V, all the connections need to be checked first. Everything clean and tight, from the battery to the switch, to the starter and make sure of a good ground at the battery/frame, also the ground wire has to be a large enough gauge...12V is a little more forgiving, but everything needs to be clean and tight still.
Good luck and Merry Christmas !
Dave


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Re: .....The Battle Continues....!

Post by Scott_Conger » Sun Dec 22, 2019 6:46 pm

What is 95%?

a 6V battery should register about 6.4V...anything less is basically dead.

as for what's wrong, place your hand on all of the components while cranking. Whatever is "hot" is a good place to start looking.

Personally, I wouldn't do a thing to a vehicle that I did not have a title for and was in the process of sueing the owner. If he'd take it back and you pay shipping, that's probably a cheaper alternative to sueing.

If you intend to persist in your attempt to start, Your starter is made for 6V. There is no such thing as a 6V "system" or 12V "system" other than you have a 6V battery and matching cutout or you have a 12V battery and a matching cutout. Properly maintained, the 6V battery will start your car well, and a 12V battery will slam it and spin the engine over far quicker than necessary. 12 volt batteries are installed for one of three reasons: the car owner wants brighter lights, or cannot figure out what is really wrong with the starter or cabling, or has no functioning magneto. Neither of the first two reasons are a good reason to switch over, as 6V lights properly grounded and focused are nearly as bright as 12V and with respect to slow starters, it is never a good idea to overcome any defect with more "oomph"...far better to simply fix what's ailing it.

This will sound harsh though not meant to be, but since you apparently are not at all acquainted with a T starting or ignition system, you REALLY need an experienced T owner helping you or your untitled car will end up as untitled parts on the floor very quickly
Last edited by Scott_Conger on Sun Dec 22, 2019 7:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: .....The Battle Continues....!

Post by tdump » Sun Dec 22, 2019 6:53 pm

Well I would check first to make sure he made it negitive ground.Some folks still think T's are positive ground.
Then I would connect a 12 volt battery to the starter switch and ground and not to the rest of the car,use it's battery and ignition switch,see if the engine turns good with the 12 volts hooked to the switch.use jumper cables to eliminate the majority of the wires in the car as a problem.

Edit,disconnect the wire on the starter switch going to the battery,then connect your positive jumper cable to that post on the switch.sorry I forgot that.
Last edited by tdump on Sun Dec 22, 2019 6:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: .....The Battle Continues....!

Post by Cigarboxrob » Sun Dec 22, 2019 6:59 pm

....Scott, I agree-Except that I’m not paying a *dime* to ship it back for a *lie* on *his* part-Plus? “...He has a brother in law in the towing business.”


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Re: .....The Battle Continues....!

Post by Cigarboxrob » Sun Dec 22, 2019 7:02 pm

....To make matter a worse? Once the dealership found out about the title issue from the title clerk? I lost my: “Garage.” I now have to pay for storage.

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Re: .....The Battle Continues....!

Post by Henry K. Lee » Sun Dec 22, 2019 7:14 pm

I do not know the laws where you are at, but hopefully it was the same state. If you have proof such as he stating he had the title or was getting the title like on eBay, then pursue under false pretenses is a good start. But make sure you let eBay know and print off all messages, ads, etc. Selling a car or other vehicle requiring a title on an internet site and falsifying about the title is a trend that a lot of State Attorney Generals are cracking down on. This may be a good weapon of choice by informing him of your intensions.

Hope this Helps,

Hank


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Re: .....The Battle Continues....!

Post by Cigarboxrob » Sun Dec 22, 2019 7:20 pm

....Hank, I’m about to do just that. I have *pages* of texts-Plus the auction description itself. Plus? Photos of the cashier’s check made out to him, and so much more. His rear end? Is *Toast.* Sadly, I think I’m *done* with Model T’s. This was the *second* bad title I’d encountered-The first was in my home state and the seller was at least *honorable,* and refunded my deposit, albeit after a small fight.

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Re: .....The Battle Continues....!

Post by Henry K. Lee » Sun Dec 22, 2019 7:28 pm

Robert I know the feeling, been there, done that! It really sickens you and you can lose hope in the human spirit. Don't give up on T's, just find good people like in this club.

Have a Merry Christmas and try and get it off your mind,

Hank in Tin-A-See


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Re: .....The Battle Continues....!

Post by Billdizer,Spencer In » Sun Dec 22, 2019 8:21 pm

Contact eBay. You have rights thru them, and they can enforce them, including getting you your money back! Call them!


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Re: .....The Battle Continues....!

Post by tdump » Sun Dec 22, 2019 8:54 pm

It aint the poor little T's fault.It just wants to be drivin.IT is the jurk you found online that is the bad apple.
Most folks in this hobby will bend over backwards to help you out and do it honest.
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Re: .....The Battle Continues....!

Post by TRDxB2 » Sun Dec 22, 2019 11:15 pm

A Cut-Out is just a simple switch that is normally open - to disconnect the battery from the starter when the engine is turned off. When the car is started the generator starts to put out voltage; the switch (original design is a solenoid will close - new design diode only allows voltage to pass in one direction) and power is then sent through the electrical system. Don't recall you mentioning any ammeter reading.
There is more of an issue with it as positive ground versus 6V or 12v. Would help to see the bottom of the cutout too - some repro's have indicators that may identify it. This link may help you check out your system
https://modeltfordfix.com/troubleshooti ... patterson/

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Re: .....The Battle Continues....!

Post by TRDxB2 » Sun Dec 22, 2019 11:31 pm

This may help you find a State that you can initiate a title from a Bill Of Sale because of the cars age. You'll need a relative, close friend, Ford Dealership (trade-in) living in that state to pull it off ;-) Then you can use it to purchase it later in NJ.
https://www.hagerty.com/articles-videos ... your-state

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Re: .....The Battle Continues....!

Post by Ed Fuller » Sun Dec 22, 2019 11:53 pm

Rob,

Like I said in our email conversation, you have two options at this point.

Option 1 - Drive to the guy’s house you bought it from, knock on his door, and tell him you will drive him the the nearest DMV and have him title it into his name so you can transfer it to yours in NJ.

Option 2 - Take the car and title back to him and ask for your money back either on your own or through eBay.

Unfortunately, both options are not convenient and they will both cost you time and money. There is no easy way out at this point.

As far as getting the car to run. Have you checked the ground connections and battery cables? If you can’t get the car to turn over with the starter try starting it with the hand crank. If you are unable to turn it by hand or if you are unsure of attempting to start it that way, then the next option would be to tow start it as suggested by others in your previous thread.

I am sorry this experience has changed your attitude towards Model T ownership. I wish you the best and hope you can get everything resolved. If I can be of any more help, please let me know.


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Re: .....The Battle Continues....!

Post by principal6553 » Mon Dec 23, 2019 7:58 am

eBay will get you a refund! They have a protection plan. Contact them ASAP! Good luck!!!


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Re: .....The Battle Continues....!

Post by Banjoe » Mon Dec 23, 2019 8:28 am

Robert,

Thank you for sharing your disappointing battle.

Like T parts, it seems that honest people are getting more scarce every day. My rip offs have been for relatively small amounts but they certainly make you question every person and transaction that comes up. Basic honesty and social responsibility that were around when our cars were young have thinned out in these days of long distance transactions. Your sad story reinforces the absolute necessity of dealing with proven honest folks as well as sharing the downsides of the activities of the growing margins of simple dishonesty to help us all learn of possible snake pits.

Thanks again for this dose of reality and try to have a very merry Christmas.
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Re: .....The Battle Continues....!

Post by Cigarboxrob » Mon Dec 23, 2019 8:39 pm

Hiya, Scott and all-I was upset last night, but I never consider anything you say: “Harsh,” rather a bit of: “Passed-down experience.”

....As far as being unfamiliar with starting a Model T, I work for a dealership that uses a 1918 “Speedster/Pickup” hybrid body that was homemade by one of our body shop guys for the local parades-I’ve already changed the transmission bands on our dealership truck, and even in our cold garage, it usually takes two full revolutions of the engine and 1/4 crank to get it going under magneto; Perhaps the lack of the coil box has me confused as I can’t hear the familiar “buzz” on mine....I think that the point that was lost as many have PM’d me was that they remember in the auction description that the car: “Didn’t need anything to be a driver, unlike so many out there.”

The seller hand-wrote a few pages of notes-The first was: “Change the oil immediately, as its 10w-40. I changed it upon arrival to 0w-20. He also wrote that he would recommend switching to 12v for more reliable starting-As the previous owner of a hand-cranked Land Rover Series I that was a true: “Field find,” that I ended up driving 82-miles daily, I’m not a stranger to diagnosing and correcting problems-My “gripe” is that the car was represented to: “Need Nothing” to be a: “Reliable running car.” In the hand-written notes, it read: “The starter switch is suspect, so I’ve included that in the box of parts.” As I personally witnessed the old switch smoke under only a few seconds of contact, it seemed suspect.

....So, I replaced it. The engine actually sluggishly turned one whole revolution. A first.

...Granted, a non-running engine can’t give an accurate ammeter reading, but it’s simply stuck at zero. No way to gauge the magneto’s strength, or lack thereof....Unless someone can give me a: “Walk through.” He sent a video of the engine running, but also told me that he: “Changed the battery with a new one for me.” That was the day after I paid for the car, but three weeks before it was shipped. I’m well-aware of the starter situation, and honestly don’t care to convert-It was only a thought that as the car was converted from timer and coils to a distributor, and the valves were supposedly replaced and hardened seats installed, might someone know (Since a few members seem to recognize the car.) if the car was indeed converted to 12v and the starter rebuilt with rewound coils....Noting what appears to be a brand new cutout, it seemed a feasible thought that the original owner had performed the conversion, and perhaps the seller unwittingly installed a new 6v battery, which is causing the: “Lugging.” You hit the switch-Even the new one. You get *one* turn of the starter. That’s it. It then acts like a dead duck. Nothing, except for the blat of the horn. I’ve checked all connections for corrosion and tightness, save using a voltmeter.

....As suggested, and in a *normal* world, while I *could* show up at his front door and even offer to pay *half* of the fees, the problem is that this person owns multiple businesses and is well-established. Since his fictitious: “Bill of Sale” has yet to arrive after several weeks, I’m guessing a knock on the door lands me in the back of a police car and a restraining order. With several specialty licenses under my belt and knowing: “Small town” police (My son is a cop.) I won’t risk showing up. It seems my only recourse is through the legal spectrum-Which involves more expenses...But let’s get back to the more pressing issue for the moment: “Do I go through all of this hell for a car that won’t start reliably *AS ADVERTISED.*”

Today, the temperature in lovely Cape May reached a sunny 45-degrees; I spun the adjustment knob 1/2 turn and grabbed the front fender on our dealership Model T. With the key: “Off,” I turned the engine 1/4 turn at a time, until I was over entirely. I turned the key and the coils buzzed merrily-The pitch! Boom! Over she went. A few moments later, I leaned out the mix and advanced the spark. No problems.

...The original point of this post is to get a supposedly: “Reliable car that won’t need a lot of work as most of the others out there” running. At this point, we all know the title issue-But I’m prepared to fight for it-If the car is a: “Runner.” As of now? It appears in no danger of starting. Tow-starting is not an option, as the car will be impounded for fictitious tags in New Jersey-Even if the tow vehicle is legally registered. If two wheels touch the ground? You can legally have your car impounded. My local police department has their hands tied behind their backs after all of the illegal: “e-bikes and motorized bicycles.” It’s the law.

....But, after the holidays, I’ll gladly accept advice and pointers-Is anyone local to Wildwood Crest and would accept payment for a: “Diagnostic?”


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Re: .....The Battle Continues....!

Post by Cigarboxrob » Mon Dec 23, 2019 9:07 pm

....After 30-hours on the charger, the engine sluggishly turned two complete revolutions. No start. So much for the: “New Battery.” It’s most likely sulfated, (Although, in all fairness, it does look new, but I’ve had “brand new” batteries test defective-Only our dealership tester is only good for 12v, so I’m lacking the proper equipment.) which makes me believe that parts may have been switched or sold off....Such as the top irons that; “Hadn’t been sorted out.” I’m sadly still giving the seller a slight benefit of the doubt, but as someone said: “It’s not the poor Model T’s fault.” You’re right-It isn’t. But I’d placed a $4,000.00 deposit on a Depot Hack that the seller maintained had: “Good title.” It was bonded. New Jersey won’t accept a bonded title. The original seller hemmed and hawed: “We made a deal, you bought a car!” I had to remind him that he promised good and clear title-Eventually, after losing two other Model T’s from “Legit” sellers, he agreed to refund my deposit-Under the penalty of a lawsuit. It’s not that I *don’t* have: “The bug.” I do-But based on the number of title issues I’ve encountered, since many Model T’s were merrily chugging along before titling became law, there’s just a *lot* of problems with draconian law states-Like New Jersey. *That’s* why I was suggesting I quit.

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Re: .....The Battle Continues....!

Post by Steve Jelf » Mon Dec 23, 2019 9:28 pm

I've had no problem getting two vehicles from out of state titled and registered in Kansas with just a bill of sale (one of them hand-written). The lesson in this is that the legislatures of various states differ in their approaches to making life difficult. Some choose to make vehicle registration a Hell of Byzantine complexity, and some choose other approaches to harrassing their citizens. I hope you can get the title and registration mess sorted out without a major hemorrhage of cash, and that you find somebody nearby to help you sort out the starting problems.
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Re: .....The Battle Continues....!

Post by TRDxB2 » Tue Dec 24, 2019 12:13 am

I'm sure someone can answer this questions.
What will eventually happen to a 6 volt starter attached to a 12 volt battery? Especially if is cranked to long.
What are the symptoms of a dying Model T starter.

If your starter switch was smoking it may have been a sign tat you starter is fried.


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Re: .....The Battle Continues....!

Post by NealW » Tue Dec 24, 2019 9:51 am

Steve Jelf wrote:
Mon Dec 23, 2019 9:28 pm
I've had no problem getting two vehicles from out of state titled and registered in Kansas with just a bill of sale (one of them hand-written). The lesson in this is that the legislatures of various states differ in their approaches to making life difficult.
Steve, that may have been the case in the past in Kansas, but not any more. When I bought our out of state 21 touring and 15 runabout restoration project, the Kansas Highway Patrol would not inspect that the "VIN" and title for a match and provide the required paperwork for the DMV, unless I had a signed over title, or an out of state title in my name. I had those, so it wasn't a problem. I looked at the Kansas registration requirements for antique vehicles, and currently you can use a bill of sale without a title only if an antique car is purchased within Kansas.

Know the laws in your state before going to the DMV, because the workers there sometimes don't! When I registered the 21, I brought in a restored 21 KS tag to use. At first the lady said that I couldn't use a restored plate. She was wrong, because you can restore them, as long as you paint them the same color as the original. The next problem was that her book on antique KS tags didn't have a picture of a 21 tag, but it said it was orange with black lettering. Well I painted mine golden yellow, which matched the best I could the colors of actual 21 KS tags that I found online. I had several pictures of others saved on my phone and showed them to her. Her boss approved the tag and it's been on the car ever since. I had no push back when I brought the 15 paperwork in and also had a restored 15 KS tag to use.

So be familiar with the registration requirements of your state before you go to the DMV!


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Re: .....The Battle Continues....!

Post by Cigarboxrob » Tue Dec 24, 2019 7:23 pm

48-hours later, I heard: R-R-R-Ruh-Ruh-Ruh-Ruh.....

....Then? The heel of my shoe caught on fire. The BRAND NEW starter switch was smoking hot enough-Once again, and I’ll provide PHOTOS of both the *auction,* and his “Hand-written notes suggesting I: “Convert to 12v for more reliable starting.” The kill switch seems suspect, but honestly? I’m *done.* This car was *advertised* (As many of you have pointed out.) As: “Turnkey ready.” Meanwhile, I cranked the engine on my dealership’s 1918 two times, heard the familiar: “Buzz” at let on, and damn if it didn’t fire over on 1/4 turn...In an unheated garage.

....I’m suing this lying *prick.* It must *suck* to be a millionaire and prey off the: “Working Schlub.”


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Re: .....The Battle Continues....!

Post by principal6553 » Tue Dec 24, 2019 8:04 pm

Again, eBay has protection in place when you buy through them. I’m sure the clock is ticking though. Get that process going and you’ll get your $ back!

The new starter switches are not good! Find an old one that is serviceable.


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Re: .....The Battle Continues....!

Post by Scott_Conger » Tue Dec 24, 2019 8:41 pm

Robert

now it's mentioned that there is a kill switch. You're parsing out information at a slow rate which is certain to elicit hopeful/helpful and at this rate, perpetual responses and suggestions, but this is the reason I suggested getting someone there that knows Model Ts.

It is not implausible to think that you have a myriad of issues with the electrical system (and with other things with near certanty) which are waiting to break as each becomes the weak link in turn.

I cannot understand why you are not on a plane to eBay headquarters to personally fill out the paperwork to get this car back to the other guy. The more you do to this car, the less it resembles what was shipped to you and in my opinion, the less likely you will have a case to persue.

The first rule of getting out of a hole is to quit digging!

Do your best to smile at your family tomorrow and enjoy the day. Then work the eBay angle with a vengance. Best of luck and Merry Christmas.
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Re: .....The Battle Continues....!

Post by Sparknwire » Thu Dec 26, 2019 5:28 pm

As far as eBay hood luck on this your probably going have to sue them for falsely advertising and fraud if they still exist


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Re: .....The Battle Continues....!

Post by Scott_Conger » Thu Dec 26, 2019 5:49 pm

Per eBay protection rules in part:

Vehicle Purchase Protection

you must meet multiple requirements, which include

Cut/paste from eBay - You obtain the VPP Administrator's prior written consent before altering, repairing, selling, or releasing possession of the vehicle before a determination is made on your reimbursement request.

Working on the car has likely voided the use of the VPP with eBay

What the VPP will NOT cover:

Cut/Paste from eBay - Receiving a title that is not signed, is improperly assigned, or receiving a title but not being able to register the vehicle (unless you are unable to register the vehicle due to an undisclosed lien against its title).

Not good news.
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Re: .....The Battle Continues....!

Post by Mark Gregush » Thu Dec 26, 2019 9:52 pm

If it is hard to crank over, by hand or starter; could be the bands are too tight also check to make sure it is really going into neutral. Pull the door off and make sure the fingers are loose when you pull the hand brake lever back. Reading everything you have posted re cranking sounds like something is dragging in the transmission area. Also make sure the link between the low pedal and arm is in place. Another thing to check, jack the rear end up, does not matter which side, with the plugs out, hand brake lever forward, is it still hard to crank over? In the description I do not see anything that suggest that the rods were taken up or new rings were installed only something about valve work being done. Could also be that the starter was on it's last leg and has just giving up. If it is the starter and not an issue with dragging, you can still use the hand crank.

Sorry about the issues you have been having, but please watch your language. Some word used above might be fine when we are with our friends in person, but do not fit here, and no I am not a prude when it comes to blue words, but not here on line.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1926-Ford-Mode ... 7675.l2557
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :roll:

1921 Huckster
1925 Cut down pickup

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