***SOLD***FOR SALE - 1911 / 1912 Engine

[Lcjudge]

If you've got an early T here's an engine for you. According to the T SN listing, this engine was in a car sold in Dec. 1911. There isn't a casting date on the engine (that I've found). The SN on it is 88211, So this was probably in a 1912 Model year car. However, it could have been in an 11 sold late. Here in Ky we didn't have a title law until the late '70's and the title year that got assigned was often either the year of manufacture or the year the vehicle was sold. I mention all this as there is usually a lot of discussion about "that's a X year not the year you say". Well, I don't know what it would actually be (and neither does anyone else). So, it is what it is, made in 1911 and installed in either a 1911 or a 1912 model year car.

OK, now to the engine. This engine was a spare and was to be installed in an early car but it never happened. All those that were involved in the effort are no longer with us. Supposedly the engine was rebuilt and never ran. I can't say that's correct or not. However, if you'll notice the valve cover panel that's off it looks new (with some surface rust) and looks as if its never been ran or had oil in it.

I'm selling this just like you got your spouse, what you see is what you get, for better or worse. Hopefully better. Let your eyes be your guide. If you buy this engine I wouldn't want to see you and it get a divorce!

The pedals on the transmission look like they're new or had very little use. I possibly have the cover that's missing on the valves. But I can't guarantee it. I'll look and if I've got it you'll get it. I don't have manifolds, carb, etc. What's in the pictures (with the exception possibly of the valve cover) is what you're buying.

I know the early T items are getting harder and harder to find. If this engine has been rebuilt, as I really think it has, the price is very cheap. Price is here at my place in Magnolia, KY and I can load it easily with a forklift.

Please contact me if you have any questions.

Price is $2850

Tommy Turner
Magnolia, KY

27 zero 76 five 95 four zero

Lcjudge (at) scrtc.com

[Lcjudge]

[Tbird]

Looks nice, it would be nice to see if the Head is an early one with no made in USA. Trans cover appears to be the early version without the reinforcements. Looks like 7 rivet pan. Can’t tell if the pan is an early version with the 2 rivet collar casting on the rear.

[Lcjudge]

I found the valve cover that's not in the picture. I also took the trans cover off to see what it looked like. Very clean and its obvious someone has been there before. The gasket had no oil on it so its never been touched since someone was into it.

[TrentB]

This what is called oil pocket motor. The ridge you see in the casting for the camshaft gear case was put there to collect oil and channel it down to an oil filler timer. Oil pocket motors appeared in the fall of 1911 but are considered to be 1912 model year motors (along with oil fill timers).

Respectively submitted,

Trent Boggess

[Lcjudge]

Looks nice, it would be nice to see if the Head is an early one with no made in USA. Trans cover appears to be the early version without the reinforcements. Looks like 7 rivet pan. Can’t tell if the pan is an early version with the 2 rivet collar casting on the rear.

Thanks Tbird. I think the pan is correct. I'll get a couple more shots of the head and the underneath of the pan.

[Tbird]

Looks nice, it would be nice to see if the Head is an early one with no made in USA. Trans cover appears to be the early version without the reinforcements. Looks like 7 rivet pan. Can’t tell if the pan is an early version with the 2 rivet collar casting on the rear.

Thanks Tbird. I think the pan is correct. I'll get a couple more shots of the head and the underneath of the pan.

Tommy,
Here are a few pictures of what would be correct for a very early 12

7 rivet arms. There should not be a hole in the center of the arm. That was added later to help with brazing. The ears should be tapered which yours appear to be.

Rear collar section with two rivets. The later pans had only one rivet and different design of casting

Here is a picture of a very late 12 pan possibly very early 13
It has the casting that goes completely around the hole in the front like the 12 pans
It has the tapered ears, but only 3 rivets and the hole for brazing. By 13 the ears were completely changed and no longer had a taper
It has the later casting on the rear collar with one rivet.
People have taken pans like this and converted them into a "7 rivet" by filling in the hole on the ears and adding a more rivets.

The big giveaway on a early 12 pan will be that rear collar casting with the two rivets.

The other thing to check would be the oil pan ring under the inspection cover on the bottom. If it's one piece or two piece. One piece is the earlier. They made a change late 12 early 13. A one piece ring will not fit on a later pan.

[Lcjudge]

The engine has been sold. Thanks for your interest and info!

[Dan McEachern]

hopefully it will get disassembled and checked over before being run. Seeing a cotter pin in the driven plate bolt rather than safety wire should raise a few flags. Congrats on your sale.

[Lcjudge]

After an inquiry I did pull the head to see how it looked. It’s obvious the engine has been rebuilt and never ran since the rebuild. The dirt dobbers had gotten in the spark plug holes and left some dirt by did no damage. The pistons had “.020” on them and are aluminum. I sprayed a bit of WD 40 on it and put the head back on.

[Jones in Aiken SC]

Someone got a deal.

[JTT3]

Greg I agree, though whom ever bought it should replace the two piece valves unless someone drilled the holes on the head of the valves, I think that would be almost improbable though. Best John

[KWTownsend]

Bargain, bargain, bargain! All the right parts for late '11 or early '12 car. Probably a step side body with either dip or straight top fore-doors. Probably too early for a smooth side body. What is the casting date on the head on both sides of the center cylinder head bolt hole?

[Lcjudge]

Keith, I’ll look out of curiosity and see what dates on it. I’m sure it’s the correct head and I’d bet it’s a Oct/Nov or thereabouts date.

[RGould1910]

Thank you , Tommy. I really appreciate you giving me such a wonderful deal on the motor.
If there's any interest, I ll provide photos and information when I disassemble it. From what I can see, it has all original componets except for the pistons. If so Im considering rebuilding it using all 1912 components ie flat top pistons, heavy rods, early timing gears and the cam with the differnt lobe heights, etc..
Ive gathered most of these early components thinking I might build up an early engine someday using original parts.

[NealW]

Richard,

It looks like you were able to pick up a nice engine for a very reasonable price! If you are planning on building it up as an authentic 1911/1912 engine as possible, then you are probably going to need to find a correct 1911/1912 pan. Mike Bird's reply provided some good pictures of the correct pan for that era, and the first pictures of the engine show that the pan ears have 5 rivets and the hole for brazing. I just checked the pan on our removed and stored engine from our late 1911 T (S/N about 4000 lower than the engine that you just bought) and all the details that Mike pointed out for a 1911/1912 pan are there. Only the strictest purest would notice the differences on the engine though, and at least the pan on your engine has the pointy teacup!