The Model T ignition was needlessly overcomplicated

[TXGOAT2]

I have not been able to find out the names of the two goats.
A study of the high tension magnetos of the early 20th century will support Ford's use of the T system in his popular-priced "Universal Car".
A typical "high tension magneto" consisted of permanent field magnets, a low tension coil, or generator, a set of breaker points and condenser, a magnetic core, and a high tension coil. High tension magnetos for multi-cylinder engines required a high tension "distributor" apparatus of some kind to deliver the high tension impulse to each cylinder. In addition, the magneto unit required some kind of mechanical drive apparatus, and many installations included a complicated "impulse drive" in order to develop enough armature velocity to deliver a spark at cranking speeds.
The Ford system consisted of low and high tension coils, magnetic cores, a "timer" that delivered low tension current to each of four coil units, each equipped low and high tension coils with breaker points and condenser. The Ford system eliminated any dedicated mechanical drive system and obviated any need of an impulse device of any kind. It did away with a high tension distributor apparatus. The coil units with points and condenser were easily accessed for service, exchange, or replacement by most anyone, and, there being four identical units, trouble with any one or two of them did not stop the engine. Additionally, the Ford system was capable of providing power for electric lighting, which "high tension" units' were not. It looks to me like the Ford system was very much in keeping with the rest of the car in design philosophy and in successful, real world performance and reliability under all conditions, including adverse conditions in rural districts and foreign lands.

[TXGOAT2]

I's somewhat confusing that The Ford flywheel generator was referred to as the magneto, whereas the entire ignition apparatus, when when unitized, was also called a magneto. The two igition systems consist of essentially the same parts and operate on the same electromagnetic principles. The Ford system, all things considered, was simpler, more versatile, less expensive, and much easier to diagnose and service, and critical parts, particularly the high tension parts, were readily accessible and each one was backed up by the other three. Beyond that, the high tension parts were placed away from engine heat and contamination, and potted in tar to seal them against moisture and dirt and vibration, which made them very reliable. The readily accessible points could often be serviced out on the road with no tools or special knowledge needed. A very dirty set of points could usually be made serviceable again with a pocket knife, and points could easily be adjusted, if imperfectly, with crude tools and no special training.

[John kuehn]

MY VERY HUMBLE OPINION AND AFTER MUCH DELIBERATION==================>>>>>>>>>>

[Fordwright]

The Ford generator was a low-tension magneto, or alternator if you will. It then required additional stages to convert it to high-tension power for the ignition. Subsequent modern designs have done away with the additional stages, so it stands to reason that Ford could have simplified the design by having a high-tension magneto for ignition in the first place. This was true at least in the early models, where ignition was the only job of the electric system. Later on, as electric lights were added, the low-tension magneto was useful for powering the headlights.

After 1919, when the electric starter, battery and generator were available, it made less sense to retain the low tension magneto. I suppose the rationale for keeping it was that it could provide ignition spark when hand-cranking was used. A high-tension ignition magneto could have done the same. It's no surprise that the ignition system was simplified considerably when the Model A was introduced.

[TXGOAT2]

High tension magnetos have a low tension coil and a high tension coil, and most all of them have breaker points and condenser. (Same as the Ford system.) A few early WICO high tension magnetos may have lacked beaker points and condenser, depending instead on a mechanical, spring-loaded trigger mechanism to move the armature rapidly enough to deliver a voltage spike strong enough to fire a spark plug in a very low compression, low speed stationary engine. Later versions had points and condenser and dual high tension coils, very much like the Ford system. These were not suited for use in automobile engines. In recent years, "magic box" electronics have replaced breaker points in some applications. I've had my share of trouble with these things, and unlike a system with points and condenser, you can't fix it by cleaning the points.

[TXGOAT2]

I agree to disagree. The Ford T system was a work of genius, and better suited to early motoring conditions and to the Model T engine particularly than any other.

[John Codman]

The single coupling Hydramatics would start by pushing. I had a '54 Fordomatic and liked it. 3 speeds. I've driven a lot of junkyard cars, and never had an automatic go out. Buick Dynaflows were smooth to a fault. NO gears in Drive. I had a '51 Dynaflow 8, and if you put it in low up to about 30 MPH, it would move pretty good. The Mopar semi-automatics behaved similarly. A 1950 or so Hudson with the big six with a hydramatic behind it would be a great car to have.

Any American automatic with a rear oil pump would start by pushing. As the years went by and cars bodies would not absorb pushing without damage, the auto makers eliminated the rear pump and stuck with just a front pump.
I also disagree with the person who posted that all of the early automatic transmissions were bad. There were a few that had issues - the earlier Ford two-speeds (Fordomatics) had the rather inconvenient habit of breaking the two drive tangs off of the torque converter, but the Dynaflows and Dual-range GM four-speeds were very reliable. In fact, there was a company (B&M) that built up the hydrometrics' for drag racing. It was called the B&M Hydrostick and were pretty close to unbreakable. The Chrysler 727 Automatic would take all the power that you could get to it, and it became the model for the later 3-speed automatics. The GM TH 400 was about as close to being a copy of the Torque flite as GM could get, without being sued for patent infringement. Rolls-Royce used to buy their automatics from GM. They couldn't have been too bad.

[TXGOAT2]

I've seen a few early Ford torque converters with cracked or broken tangs. It seemed to follow an engine remove/replace operation in some cases.

[RecklessKelly]

It would have been neat if Ford made an stator driven starter and generator out of the mag that would have eliminated the external starter and gen. It would be a little more complex electrically but a simpler system in the end.
I had a 60's Suzuki street bike with this setup. The starter as whisper quiet. And the system pretty basic.

[TXGOAT2]

That would have been an interesting idea, but I don't know if it could be done without brushes to work on DC power. Ford didn't like brushes, and I don't think they'd work in oil. A crankcase explosion would be another possibility with brushes. Look up "Owen Magnetic". That car used a very interesting setup.

[RecklessKelly]

Kind of like a locomotive drivetrain.

[Allan]

A story about Rolls Royce and GM auto transmissions was once relayed to me. Rolls went to work refining the GM transmission and setting it up to their precise machining standards, and it didn't work! So they used the GM transmissions as supplied.
There was a parallel with the V12 Rolls Royce Merlin aircraft engines. These were handbuilt and at rebuild time, Rolls took them back and did the necessary work When Allison took on building them under license in the USA, they were mass produced to specifications which allowed them to be rebuilt with full replacement of all components from stock inventories.

Allan from down under.

[TXGOAT2]

I believe that Packard and Hudson also used the Hydramatic for a time. A Packard 8 with a camshaft ground to take full advantage of the Hydramatic's 4 speeds and a suitable axle ratio would be a fine combination. Hydramatic shift points could be adjusted from under the hood across a wide range.

[RecklessKelly]

By adjusting the control rod longer or shorter, one can make the hydramatic shift more agressively or at a lower rpm. The timing has to be set perfect to get it to shift correctly. If you start out mellow, it will continue shifting at lower rpm all thru the gear changes even if you decide to hasten it up with the pedal.