How to tell if the carb is flooded or not

[NealW]

I finished the restoration on our 1911 touring car just in time for cold weather in Kansas. By cold I mean low to mid 20s at night and around 40 as a high during the day. I hate cold weather, so I normally stop driving our 16 runabout if it is below 60. However, I need to bring the 11 to the vehicle inspection place to demonstrate that the car "operates" so that I can get the paperwork to get a highway title for the car.

A friend is going to help me this week to do that, but the forecast shows continued cold weather when we do that. I have been starting it the past few mornings to try to learn how much priming and mixture opening it needs to get it to start. The car cold soaked to below 40 when I have been starting it.

The car has a rebuilt Holley H1 carb on it, and the good news is that I've been able to get it started the past few mornings. The bad news is that it is taking a lot more hand cranks to get it to start initially (no electric starter). Still being a rather fresh engine rebuild adds to the excitement. Once started and ran for even a minute or so, I can turn it off and it will readily start on the first or second pull set to magneto.

What I don't know is if I've been priming it too much or too little. The car does seem to like having the carb mixture opened up a 1/4 turn. I prime 3 or 4 1/4 turns and it it won't start after multiple additional cranks. Eventually I do get it started, but was wondering if anyone can tell me what I can be doing differently in order to figure out what this car needs regarding choking to start it more easily when it is really cold out, and what are some indications for being flooded or not enough choke.

thanks,

Neal

[Scott_Conger]

Neal, if there is no fuel running out the throat, the carb itself is not flooded.

A Warning: I finished a rebuild on my '23 a few years ago and in the deep cold of WY, I used to fire it up every now and then just to hear it run. And it did until it didn't. I ended up with a stuck valve, and once freed up, I watched murky oil slowly emanate from the push rod towers. Draining the oil in the spring, I found enough moisture mixed into the oil as to suspect a head gasket leak. Fresh oil, and no more trouble...restarts in the winter and ALLOWING IT TO WARM UP stopped the rampant condensation in the crankcase (which I thought was impossible in our climate but was rudely corrected).

Also, your car will enjoy having a carb stove on it in a chill and will let you run just that much leaner after it gets started, leading to clean plugs and not having to worry about sooting up #1 plug. Once your car has a few thousand miles on it you may find it runs just fine without it, though Kansas can be pretty humid...and I found that my '13 in Florida required a stove even on the hottest summer months due to humidity and intake frosting.

Congratulations on your milestone.

[speedytinc]

During your choke pulls the carb will snort back the excess fuel. That tells me there is enough fuel ready for starting.
You need to try a variety of methods to figure out what works best. Each motor & carb will be slightly different.
My 14 takes 2 1/4 choke pulls(when cold) then switch on & 1/4 pull start. I never touch the mixture setting. When warm, one 1/4 pull instant start.
Of course, here the coldest morning is 50 degrees.
In the process of figuring out the procedure, I discovered extra choke added a lot more grief to starting. 2 choke pulls was plenty.

[TXGOAT2]

Overchoking usually results in fuel dripping from the carburetor. Underchoking usually results in no starting, or a "kick" or two, and perhaps a backfire at the carburetor. A "false start" usually indicates a need for more choking, espcially if no fuel drip is observed or if there is a pop at the carburetor. No two cars are exactly alike, and conditions vary, so no hard and fast rules can be given. Use of a good synthetic multi-grade oil with a low first number, such as a 5W20 or 10W30, will ease cold starting and give excellent engine protection. It sounds like you are on track to learning the best procedure for starting your particular car and your weather conditions. Fresh gasoline will aid starting. Clean and properly-gapped sparkplugs will aid starting. Coils need to be in good order and properly adjusted. The timner needs to be in good order. A recently rebuilt engine can be more difficult to start for the first few hundred miles. The solution for that is to drive the vehicle. I avoid starting the engine, especially in cold weather, unless I intend to drive the car for at least several miles. In colder weather, ten miles or more is best. Starting the engine and running it a few minutes only is not good practice. It can contribute to needless wear, carbon deposition, oil dilution, moisture in the crankcase, and sludging.

[Gen3AntiqueAuto]

If you flood an updraft intake it will wet the floor under the car.
As for your starting issue, can you spin the engine all the way around or are you doing 1/4 pulls?
This is how a properly rebuilt T should start (see video).
My advice is - and KEEP THE KEY OFF for the cranking so you don't get thrown to the ground or break an arm...
1. Pull the choke out and spin the engine all the way around once or twice.
2. turn the key on.
3. Raise the spark lever.

As you can see in the video - this works. If it does not, you have the mixture set wrong ( "ten and two" on the knob - set "2" and put a dot there on it when it's running and warmed up then next time it's cold you will know where 10 is), low compression (new engine so prob not), or poor coils.

https://youtu.be/eKMI_nWiZ2k

[Steve Jelf]

... though Kansas can be pretty humid.

Yes, mostly in high summer. Salt gums up and won't come out of the shaker. Grains of salt spilled on the table turn into little beads of salt water. But currently we're not having that. During fall and winter daytime humidity gets well below 50% unless it's a rainy day.

This doesn't answer the question of how to recognize flooding, but it does make starting easier: chock a couple of wheels, jack one rear wheel off the floor, and set the hand brake lever straight up. It seems to me that the engine should fire as long as it gets air, fuel, and spark, but reducing drag really does help cold starting.

[mbowen]

You can usually tell if it’s flooded by the fuel smell. Dad used to tell me that if you can’t start an engine and don’t know whether it’s flooded, then do whatever it takes to make sure it IS flooded, then add air until it starts. (It may be prudent to stand by with a fire extinguisher…).

My cold start procedure on my T is ignition off, throttle closed, four pulls with choke, 3-5 pulls with the throttle wide open (the colder it is, the fewer you need), throttle to a few notches down from closed, retard spark, and turn on the ignition. If it doesn’t free start it only takes a pull or two to get it going.

[TXGOAT2]

Concerning moisture in the crankcase: A dry climate and/or high elevation will help an engine get rid of internal moisture once it is running AND fully warmed up. It will prevent condensation during storage. However, a dry climate will not prevent moisture from reaching the crankcase when an engine is running cold. (By "cold" I mean not fully warmed up)
The reason for this is that water is a normal product of the gasoline combustion process. The engine actually makes water as it burns gasoline. A gallon of gasoline ( a hydrocarbon) will yield about 3 gallons of water when it is burned. In an automobile engine, most of this is emitted via the exhaust, but some of it gets past the rings as condensate water or steam, which will condense in a cold running engine and remain in the crankcase, where it will mix with oil.
The only way to get rid of this moisture is to run the engine until it is fully warmed up, then continue running it long enough for the normal engine heat to vaporize the condensate, which will then be expelled via the crankcase vent. In cold weather, it takes time for an engine and the oil in it to completely warm up, and it takes more time yet for condensate to be completely expelled.
I don't start my car unless I mean to drive it at least several miles. In cooler weather, ten miles is about the minimum, and more is better. In very cold weather, provision needs to be made for the engine to reach full operating temperature and remain there for a good while. Even at that, condensate may be observed at the oil filler cap and may occur inside the timing cover or valve chamber cover. I'd avoid any short trips in cold weather, and change the oil more often than usual. In cold regions, an adjustable winterfront would be a good idea if you do any cold weather driving.
Short trip, cold weather driving constitutes severe service. It's best avoided.

[Allan]

Neal, a hot shot battery is an aid to starting, rather than relying on the flywheel magneto. Also, 1/4 turn on the mixture conrtrol is way short of any setting I have ever found to work. If you can get it running again, try adjusting the mixture to see where it runs at its best.

Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.

[TXGOAT2]

I find the additional 1/4 turn language in the owner manuals to be confusing. My car won't run with the adjustment 1/4 open.
What is meant is that opening the carb adjustment about 1/4 turn past the NORMAL running setting is usually helpful when starting, especially in cooler weather.
The normal setting is 3/4 to 7/8 turns off the seat. Most all linkages have some slack in them, and this must be accounted for by the operator.
Opening the adjustment aan additional 1/4 turn aids in keeping the engine running until the operator can reach and adjust the timing and throttle for warm up.
When hand cranking on magneto in cold weather, it can be difficult to safely get the engine moving fast enough to generate a good spark. Using an ignition battery, either 6, 8, or 12 volt, will overcome this difficulty. Initial spark advance settings will vary when using magneto or an ignition battery. With an ignition battery, full retard is best. When cranking on magneto, somewhat more advance is often helpful, but caution must be used to avoid broken likmbs and perhaps damaged teeth.

[NealW]

I appreciate everyone's input on my question. Our abnormal Kansas cold spell continues, with another morning in the 20s and the garage cold soaked below 40. The general consensus was that I was not over priming the engine, so this morning I opened the mixture 1/4 turn and did six 1/4 turn pulls with the choke. The past couple of mornings I've been jacking up a rear wheel and that helps with the cranking. I do have a 6V "hotshot" small battery that I've been keeping on a trickle charger.

After my priming I almost got a free start, and it started one or two pulls after that while on battery. I leaned it back out and let it run until it was good and warm to avoid the issue that Scott pointed out. Thanks for that advice Scott! Once warmed up, it easily started on mag with one or two pulls.

I have an original 1915 owners manual, which has the same cold weather starting advice as the later manual:
"The usual method of starting the engine when cold is to turn the carburetor dash adjustment one quarter turn to the left in order to allow allow a richer mixture of gasoline to be drawn into the cylinders, then hold out the priming rod while you turn crank from six to eight one quarter turns in quick succession".

Wow, it's like they knew how to cold start the engine over 100 years ago! I know each T is a bit different, but I find it a bit amusing that I had the best result today by doing it exactly how the manual suggested.

[TXGOAT2]

Keep in mind that typical gasoline available in the T era, especially after 1915 or so, was often of low volatility compared to today's gasoline. Somewhat less aggressive choking would probably give better results in most cases today.

[TXGOAT2]

Whenever a car is started in cold weather, it's best to drive it 10 miles or more, preferabley on the open road at 30 MPH or thereabouts.

[John kuehn]

I have 3 T’s and each has a slightly different carb setting 1 to 1 3/4 turn. They start with just past 1 turn and adjust from there.
I’ve found that with the key off and with the spark lever at 2-3 notches and the gas about 1/3 down turn the engine over about 4 times. Then turn the switch on and with 1-2 turns it’s starts almost every time. And that’s if the car hasn’t been started in several weeks. It works that way for me.
If the carbs get flooded you can smell it pretty quick before any gas starts dripping from the carb.
AND your T is unique even though there are general things you do with all of them. All T’s have a mind of their own. They just do!!!

[NealW]

I mentioned when I started this post that I needed to take the 11 back to the vehicle inspection place to prove that it was runnable and drivable so that I could get a highway title for it. A few days ago I posted that the choking technique that makes this T happy is a 1/4 rich and six 1/4 turn choke pulls.

Well this surprisingly long cold spell continues and my friend was coming with his trailer early this morning to take us to the place. I used the same choking procedure that I learned a few days ago and once again I almost got a free start. It started one or two pulls after that. I put a piece of cardboard over the radiator so that it didn't suck out all the heat from the coolant while pulling it for 20 minutes with temps in the 20s. It seemed to help as it easily started when we got there. That place has been increasingly difficult to work with, as I asked if I could just start it on the trailer and show that I could move it back and forth. Nope. It had to come off the trailer, even though prior T's that I brought there didn't have to come off.

Anyway, I got the form that I needed and then went to get my antique license plate and roadworthy title. Unfortunately Kansas didn't have statewide plates in 1911, so I couldn't get an original like I did for our 15. It was amazing how long the lady had to type away to change one box on the title...

Thanks again everyone for your feedback on how to reliably start this T in cold weather.

[Steve Jelf]

That place has been increasingly difficult to work with...

I bet it was a different person. It seems to me that the difficulty in navigating a bureaucracy depends greatly on which individual you happen to deal with.

[Scott_Conger]

Neal

what a nice looking car!

and congratulations on this milestone with the state bureaucracy