I need a battery

[DarkLeftArm]

What's the going wisdom about 6 volt batteries these days?
Lots of motorcycle collectors I know are transitioning to lithium batteries, Light, leakproof, work well in warm weather, etc.
Is there a good lithium option?
My worry is that a regular lead-acid unit will just not take kindly to my sporadic use, and need to be swapped out every couple years.
My son just retrieved his old motorcycle, a '75 or 6 Honda Goldwing out of my workshop after storing it there for 5-6 years. That little battery was still up for the hunt, and I never even put it on a trickle charge.

Thanks for any suggestions.
Cheers!

[Tmooreheadf]

I buy inexpensive 575 CCA lead acid batteries from Rural King for $50. Then hook them up to a good quality battery maintainer, less than 1 amp maximum output. Usually get about 5 years service from them! $10 per year and whatever the cost of the power for the maintainer. But the new ion batteries sound interesting!

[Moxie26]

At one time or another, we all need a new replacement for our 6 volt battery. Have you considered checking out the amperage reading on your ammeter while running? On average anp meter reading should be 8 to 10 amps positive. As lead acid batteries do get older, they will need distilled water added to each cell to maintain working condition.

[TRDxB2]

What's the going wisdom about 6 volt batteries these days?
Lots of motorcycle collectors I know are transitioning to lithium batteries, Light, leakproof, work well in warm weather, etc.
Is there a good lithium option?
My worry is that a regular lead-acid unit will just not take kindly to my sporadic use, and need to be swapped out every couple years.
My son just retrieved his old motorcycle, a '75 or 6 Honda Goldwing out of my workshop after storing it there for 5-6 years. That little battery was still up for the hunt, and I never even put it on a trickle charge.

Thanks for any suggestions.
Cheers!

I assume that you are looking to replace the battery used to start your Model T. That normally calls for a "cranking" battery as opposed to a "deep cycle battery". I say "normally" because there are always exceptions.

FROM Batteries+ web site
If you are looking to use a lithium battery as a cranking battery in your car, truck, RV or boat then the answer is a resounding NO. If you are looking for a battery for your motorcycle, jet ski or ATV, then yes, an X2Power LiFePO4 battery is a suitable choice for a starting battery.

Too many people choose a Model T battery on CCA (Cold Cranking Amps) which is the amount of amperage a battery can supply at zero degrees (-17.8 C) for 30 seconds while sustaining a voltage of at least 7.2 volts. CA (Cranking Amps) gauges power at 32 F for general starting in moderate climates. So as stated above
Charging is another factor to consider in selecting one the type battery as well some like a slow charge. Voltage Regulators are available again for a Model T and highly recommended over a Cut-Out. Magneto charging voltage is unregulated. Voltage is what charges the battery & amperage regulates how long it will take.

My choice is a cranking battery's cost/years (warranty and years of service)
6-Year (2yr free replacement) 6v Lead Acid Automotive Battery $114.99 $114.99/2yr about $57/yr $114.99/6yr about $19/yr
Optima Red Top 6V (3yr free replacement) $249.99 $249.99/3yr about $83/yr $248.99/6yr about $41/yr

Also those lead acid batteries sitting on the shelf at the Auto parts store... been there a long tie without being charged.

[DHort]

I was lucky enough to get an Optima 6V battery from O'Reilly at 20% off. My last one lasted 11 years and I never charged it thru the winter.

They send me sales notices all the time. Usually the Optima is rejected. I think the last time I got lucky and it was not excluded from the sale. I later took my old battery to them and got my $10 as well.

[Loftfield]

Tractor Supply Company has a nice 6-volt battery, fits the Model T battery cage under the back seat. Lithium ion batteries seem wonderful right up until you see how many of them catch fire and can't be extinguished...store your car outside warnings. Your insurance will replace your Tesla, but replacing a Model T is a bit more challenging. Stick with Henry's technology.

[Tadpole]

Amen on that Rural King and Tractor Supply! Good tractor batteries serve well.

[John.Zibell]

At one time or another, we all need a new replacement for our 6 volt battery. Have you considered checking out the amperage reading on your ammeter while running? On average anp meter reading should be 8 to 10 amps positive. As lead acid batteries do get older, they will need distilled water added to each cell to maintain working condition.

Moxie, that 8 to 10 amp is OK if you have a voltage regulator. However, if using a cutout, that is way too much and can cook your battery. With a cut out, 3 to 4 amps max.

[John.Zibell]

I just did an internet search for 6 volt lithium ion batteries. There are some, but only 6 amp hour. That isn't enough to spin your T.

[Moxie26]

If you only for the most part, use the car for short trips, setting the generator to put out 6 to 10 amp maximum would be beneficial, and if you plan a longer trip turning on your headlights, we'll use up that extra charging. Amperage , showing a lower charging rate of maybe four to six amps depending on the incandescent bulbs you use.

[DarkLeftArm]

A lot of great replies here! All good advice, I think Thank you for that.
I generally tend to stay pretty original with old stuff, so it looks like I'll be going to have a talk with the folks over at Tractor Supply.
Again, Thanks.
Cheers.

[Luke]

...Lithium ion batteries seem wonderful right up until you see how many of them catch fire and can't be extinguished...

Not all lithium-based batteries are the same and should not be confused for each other. I suggest that, when looking for replacement lithium vehicle batteries, you consider LiFePO4.

LiFePO4 do not exhibit some of the more alarming characteristics of LiPo, they have a similar charging regime to Pb, are happy taking a deep discharge to 80%-90% of capacity, and are typically rated 2000-3000 cycles to 80% capacity. They have extremely low self-discharge so do not typically require topping up between off-seasons and are usually a very long lasting product.

FWIW my house batteries are LiFePO4, I have them inside the house and they're now 10years old with no discernible loss in capacity. IOW I put my money where my mouth is, and am happy to recommend them - and of course, being me, I did significant due diligence before going down this route so the recommendation I make includes thorough research, not solely my own experience.

Luke.

[DarkLeftArm]

...Lithium ion batteries seem wonderful right up until you see how many of them catch fire and can't be extinguished...

Not all lithium-based batteries are the same and should not be confused for each other. I suggest that, when looking for replacement lithium vehicle batteries, you consider LiFePO4.

LiFePO4 do not exhibit some of the more alarming characteristics of LiPo, they have a similar charging regime to Pb, are happy taking a deep discharge to 80%-90% of capacity, and are typically rated 2000-3000 cycles to 80% capacity. They have extremely low self-discharge so do not typically require topping up between off-seasons and are usually a very long lasting product.

FWIW my house batteries are LiFePO4, I have them inside the house and they're now 10years old with no discernible loss in capacity. IOW I put my money where my mouth is, and am happy to recommend them - and of course, being me, I did significant due diligence before going down this route so the recommendation I make includes thorough research, not solely my own experience.

Luke.

That's great info!
Time for me to get to reading.
Cheers!

[A400]

For a "T" without a starter, I use a 6V dry cell flashlight battery to tickle the coils. Hide it under the seat. A fresh one will last 4-5 years if just used for starting.

[Luke]

...Time for me to get to reading....

Just to add a little more detail that could be useful.

In vehicles, and with my house battery, I use individual prismatic cells of around 3.2V each. They are available in 40, 60, 100A/h and larger and can be series up in a battery to whatever voltage you need (obviously you'd want just two cells for a 6V T battery). These are similar to those I have in the house, and in various vehicles etc. There are several manufacturers, I have positive experience of Sinopoly and Winston to name a couple:

http://www.sinopolybattery.com/userfile ... 100AHA.pdf
https://www.evlithium.com/Sinopoly-Battery/351.html

Some people will get all hot and bothered about a BMS but I simply top-balance the cells and leave it there. An occasional check with a voltmeter could be useful but I've never had an issue and don't expect one.

This message typed courtesy energy supplied by the sun and stored in a LiFePO4 prismatic cell battery

Luke.

[AdminJeff]

6 volt Batteries... the Bain of my existence. I have several, all in different states of their useful life. I've charged and discharged all of them literally hundreds of times over the past couple of years while testing and developing the voltage regulators our community designed. I've also solicited the advice of actual battery engineers regarding best practices as they relate to wet cell (not lithium) battery charging. More on this later.

When I bought my T in 2017, I put a new battery in it and drove it everywhere, pretty much every single day. I had a standard cutout then and had the charge rate set at 8A because folks said this was a good idea. The battery lasted about a year. Then it stopped accepting & holding a charge, a clear indication the battery was toast. So I bought another battery. It also lasted a year and then stopped accepting a charge. Why?

A new battery "should" last several years if it is properly maintained and not overcharged. The last part is the key... the cutouts that were originally installed in our cars only allow current to flow from the generator to the battery when the car is running, and stop when the car is off. They act like a switch. On or off. Nothing more. So what happens is you start the car, drive for 10-15 minutes and the battery generally becomes fully charged. Then it starts over charging, which eventually boils the electrolyte (battery acid). This is bad. It kills the battery. Drive it on a tour for several hours and nothing good comes from it.

A really effective way to mitigate this is to drive with your (incandescent) lights on. You'll notice the ammeter should go to 0 or 1-2 amps if the 3rd brush on your generator is set correctly. You can drive all day like that annd your battery will thank you for it and last MUCH longer. Unfortunately, many folks have installed LED lights and the draw from those is minimal, so this trick doesn't work. If you have a cutout, your max charge rate with LED lights should be 3-4 amps. Your battery will eventually still be over charged on longer drives, but it's not as brutal as if you are pumping 8-10A into it at all times. More is not always better...

Of course all modern cars have solved these problems with a device called a Voltage Regulator. As the name implies, it regulates the voltage coming out of the generator. Battery engineers will tell you the "resting" 100% charge voltage of a 6v battery is 6.4 volts. Resting means the voltage of the battery after sitting for several hours doing nothing. There are many methods that can be employed to charge a battery. After much discussion and consultation with battery design experts, our voltage regulator design group chose this method: The optimal charge voltage while driving the car and consuming energy is approximately 7.4v. Once the bulk battery charge voltage reaches 7.4v, it is considered 100% charged and charging should stop. When the battery voltage drops down to about 6.1v, charging should commence again and the cycle repeats. There are other methods of charging a battery that are equally effective, and the key here is that the battery should never be "over charged" over 7.4v or allowed to discharge below 6.1v. The only way to achieve this consistently is with a voltage regulator.

This entire discussion falls apart when Lithium batteries enter the equation. They are a completely different animal, and complex charging circuits are required to maintain and manage them along with a clean & stable voltage source for charging, which our hostile Model T generators are anything but. I would never recommend them at all for the average Model T owner.

Jeff

[TRDxB2]

...Lithium ion batteries seem wonderful right up until you see how many of them catch fire and can't be extinguished...

Not all lithium-based batteries are the same and should not be confused for each other. I suggest that, when looking for replacement lithium vehicle batteries, you consider LiFePO4.

LiFePO4 do not exhibit some of the more alarming characteristics of LiPo, they have a similar charging regime to Pb, are happy taking a deep discharge to 80%-90% of capacity, and are typically rated 2000-3000 cycles to 80% capacity. They have extremely low self-discharge so do not typically require topping up between off-seasons and are usually a very long lasting product.

FWIW my house batteries are LiFePO4, I have them inside the house and they're now 10years old with no discernible loss in capacity. IOW I put my money where my mouth is, and am happy to recommend them - and of course, being me, I did significant due diligence before going down this route so the recommendation I make includes thorough research, not solely my own experience.

Luke.

We all have our opinions & I had posted one from the Battery Plus website that seems to have been ignored. Just to reinforce what Jeff has said here it is Battery Plus again
https://www.batteriesplus.com/blog/powe ... m-starting
Here is what they say
Lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4) batteries have been becoming increasingly popular over the past few years. We recommend our X2Power lithium batteries for many deep cycle applications from RVs to boats but can these batteries be used as a replacement for your starting battery?

--
--
The "application" is in reference is to the amount of amps needed to turn over the starter. Small engines (Motorcycles, ATV's & jet ski's) only need about 80 amps (best as I determine) while a "good" 6v Model T starter needs 160 amps upwards. Remember if the battery fails the warranty will not be honored. User be aware

[Luke]

We all have our opinions & I had posted one from the Battery Plus website that seems to have been ignored. Just to reinforce what Jeff has said here it is Battery Plus again...

Frank,

You are right that we all have opinions. Mine is based on extensive research and direct experience of LiFePO4 over many years, but I've already said my piece and don't consider it necessary to say it all over again.

However I will point out that, rather than accept the views of a random resellers website, it would be advisable to check out the manufacturers specifications of a cell or battery that one might be considering. I always do this, thus the LiFePO4 cells I make my vehicle batteries from are rated at 500A continuous delivery which I find sufficient for my purpose.

And this may be one of the times I [partly] disagree with Jeff. Given I started the VR thread you will be unsurprised to hear that I am right behind him with regard to the use of a voltage regulator, however I don't consider the charging regime of LiFePO4 to be particularly complicated and I'm not put off using such chemistry for my vehicle battery. Other Lithium-based types, yes, but not LFP.

Luke.