What is this inside my generator?

[TMiller6]

I'm rebuilding the generators on my family's cars. I found this in #3 today

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The unusual sliding brush caught my attention. Its adjusting bolt is also the spring anchor. When I tried to install a new insulator, I found the plate is also different. I assume I can enlarge the slot and drill another hole, but I'm wondering where this plate came from. Fordson?

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Here's a correct plate for reference.

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[Mike Silbert]

The original Ford generators for the 1919 cars had a few different features.
This looks like one.
They had the fields wound and wired differently also.
I cant remember if there are other detail differences or not.
Quite fixable with care and a few more parts.

Mike

[Moxie26]

Common disintegrated insulator for the third brush... And you wonder why your generator doesn't put out any voltage because it's grounded out.

[Ron Patterson]

Here is what I theorize happened.
When Ford decided to add the Starting and Lighting System to the Model T they apparantly got help from FA Liberty Company (FAL) .
I beleive FA is the initials of Fred Allison who ultimately wound up making many contributions to the electrical engineering department at Ford.
The very first Model T generatrors and starters had FA Liberty manufacturing tags on the main parts cases. I have only seen a few of these FAL units in 20 years of rebuilding starters and generators.
The generator brushplate shown above by Tom Miller is an FAL part.

The attachment Early Third Brush 003.JPG is no longer available

FAL parts were unique. The unique generatror brushplate and the starting motor had a oil seal in the mounting bracket to prevent oil from getting into the motor case.
Here is a photo of an early generator brushplate and starter front plate with the FAL Logo and oil seal.

The attachment Early Third Brush 003.JPG is no longer available

The attachment Early Starter Oil Seal 004.jpg is no longer available

003.JPG[/attachment]
Apparantly as Ford took over the manufacturing of these parts several changes were made, most likely for the ease manufacturing and save a few pennies.
Ford electrical history is peppered with photos of Fred Allison's creations.

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Enjoy
Ron Patterson

[Ron Patterson]

Here is the two missing photos.

[Ron Patterson]

The early FAL parts are backwad compatible with leter Ford made parts.
RP

[TMiller6]

Ron, if it’s early Ford, I will make the insulator fit the metal and not cut up the steel.

[Ron Patterson]

Here is the photo of the early FAL starter mounting gbracket with oil seal.

Early Starter Oil Seal 004.jpg (17.33 KiB) Viewed 1682 times

[TMiller6]

I have been working on my early brush plate during the dark days of the Forum.

My goal was to preserve it for the next caretaker instead of modifying it to fit the later parts. I was able to clean the Glyptal of the plate and fitted new insulators. The later design insulator is similar but needed some revisions. For one, the early third brush would ground at both extremes of the travel. One end of the insulator was close to the grounded large brush holder and there was no rivet hole there.

I used Apoxie, a two part epoxy clay. It's water soluble while working and is solvent proof and heat resistant when cured. I used The fiberglass insulator has its slots changed to one slot and it's now shortened so it lines up with the existing rivet hole.

[TMiller6]

Meet my Generator Rebuild #1

Per Ron Patterson's suggestion, I used a diode cutout while making my initial adjustments.

I also found out the large end of the wrench fits my early brush plate third brush nut.
With the brush plate adjusted and third brush retarded, I am seeing nine volts at four amps. After adjusting everything, I checked it with my volage regulator instelled. With a charged battery, I see a six amp spike which tapers back to zero with no load in the system.

Some other notes.
The armature shop that used to be down the street from me has closed its doors. I found another shop in Flint, Michigan that agreed to wash, bake, and test my armatures. They also sealed them. Results were two out of the four were good. The third was bad and the fourth was rated "iffy". I managed to get some really cool smoke out of Iffy and it's now in my bad pile. I did ask if they did rewinding. They do, and I was told I can't afford it.

A pole screw press is a very handy item for removing and installing pole screws. Unfortunately, I don't own one but I do have a press and some Craftsman bits that came in a four piece set for Model A tie rod ends. I adjusted the ram by pumping it with my fingers instead of using a bar. The use of a screw jack between the pole pieces is recommended so the housing does not go out of round.

My Dad left me a wet grinding wheel that I never use. It did have a perfect motor to use for my test stand and it's the right speed. I managed to trip the thermal breaker on the motor when I moved the third brush too high. In my mind, this is a good feature.

[Ron Patterson]

Tom
Here is another tip.
Make yourself one of these so you can easily interface the generator drive gear with the drive motor.

Ron P

[Ron Patterson]

[TMiller6]

Like this? It turned out to be a geometry exercise and I took a couple of cuts before I realized how much the teeth had to be reduced in regards to the pitch diameter.

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[Ron Patterson]

Tom
Exactly.
Ron Patterson