Aligning front pulleys

[5 WoodenWheels]

Hello,

I am reverting back to non water-pump status on my '23 Touring. The car came with the aftermarket pump and on the advice of others and considering that it leaks I decided to do away with it. Not so simple. I see the fan pulley and the crank pulley are offset, with the top pulley appearing to be about a half-inch forward of the bottom one. I've done the conversion back to original, but need to deal with this pulley situation now. Has anyone encountered this? I will provide photos when I have a minute, as that will help clarify the matter. Thanks in advance, Gerrit

[TRDxB2]

Pictures of the pulleys help. Are the pulleys different than what was used with the water pump? Wouldn't expect this issue by removing the water pump alone.
There are also aftermarket pulleys now to help
https://www.modeltford.com/item/3962BBN.aspx

[5 WoodenWheels]

Yes, at least the crank pulley is aftermarket. Not sure about the fan. I’ll post pics if I can with this reply. Gerrit

[DanTreace]

Here is your photo lightened up some, the fan is ok later '24 type blade, but at times the fan bracket can get bent. From the angle of your photo it would appear the bracket is out of shape. You could try to shim the bracket out with thin spacers or washers behind the bracket at the large retaining bolt or bend it straight (on the bench vise, take it apart) to get alignment, cold bend is ok, tough Ford steel part.

Here is aligned stock '23 fan.

'23 fan

Note the bracket is rather straight in stock shape, the zerf fitting is incorrect, should be a cover screw as heavy oil not grease should be used in this type fan pulley.

Igh0706.jpg (125.03 KiB) Viewed 6244 times

[5 WoodenWheels]

Thank you Dan but what I am seeing is the fan pulley about a half-inch forward of the crank pulley. Unless I am misunderstanding something about your explanation I’m not sure how shimming it up will get me back in alignment with the bottom pulley. It may be the case that I have to return the crank pulley to original as I’m told this is aftermarket. I’ll talk with my club members and see how to proceed. I wanted to post this here to see if there was a quick and easy solution but I think it’s going to be more involved. A good opportunity to learn about my car—putting a positive spin on it ...Thanks again. Gerrit

[speedytinc]

Re-pop crank pulley. Compare pin location to stock.
Your fan pulley is SHOT, worn out. There should be a crown to keep the belt tracking properly. Yours actually has a negative crown. It will give you trouble. Good candidate for a ball bearing pulley.

[5 WoodenWheels]

SpeedyTin,

Thanks, I'll get some experienced eyes on this. Good time to replace parts as needed since I'll be taking it all apart anyway. I appreciate the reply. Gerrit

[jaybee47]

In addition to the previous comments and based on the pictures, it looks like there are thick washers at the fan shaft pulley and bracket and at the other end of the bracket. Just surmising.

[John kuehn]

Several different opinions about what to do.
Going by the photo concerning the pulleys being lined up it doesn’t look like it’s more than maybe 3/8” or less out of alignment but they may be because of the angle of the photo.

I would install an original style crank pulley first and go from there. It’s probably been out supposedly a little for years and probably didn’t give any issues. My 21 Touring isn’t in exact alignment and hadn’t given any issues. It does have the original style crank pulley which somewhat allows an offset alignment because it doesn’t have the flanges on the pulley.
The belt can align itself by being able to move over just a little.
Of course you want to get it as straight as you can and again this is my opinion.
Experienced eyes don’t always have the same opinions.

[5 WoodenWheels]

Thanks for the replies and yes I agree about not everyone always coming to a consensus on any particular problem. I rather like that because it often allows one to "think outside the box" and get some different angles on a problem whereby I may just have tunnel vision and could possibly be over-reacting to what is a trivial matter. I do think the pulleys are offset by about a half inch, would like to get them as close to being lined up as possible. I believe starting with the correct crank pulley is best--unless I find some reason it has been replaced with aftermarket which would not surprise me. I've had the car for less than a year, am just spending the cold months getting it ready for warm weather driving. Overall it is a very strong driver. Thanks again, I'll check back with any progress or efforts on my end. Gerrit

[Scott_Conger]

Your crank pulley was almost certainly replaced with this one, due to the belt constantly flying off. As mentioned earlier, the fan pulley is horribly worn and having pulleys even perfectly lined up with a new stock crank pulley, will still result in the belt coming off.

For starters, both pulleys must be crowned and then work alignment. With a correct pulley of the correct diameter on the crank and then a replacement original fan pulley, I'll bet that alignment will be quite close and can be managed from there. In fact, bone stock parts and correct repair/replacement methods will all but certainly remove misalignment without even trying.

Even with misalignment of some degree, a belt will always track to the "high" point on a crowned pulley even when faulty common sense says that it will want to run off (it won't).

[5 WoodenWheels]

I’ll check back when I’ve made a little more headway. I agree that just removing the water pump should not make any difference so I imagine the car has been driven regularly like this. The couple I bought it from toured often. Here is a photo of my ‘23 Touring, the car in question. Always fun to see a picture of the whole car instead of just a close-up of some part. It’s a good basic driver, won’t win any beauty contests.

[Art M]

Nice model t. Mine is similar to yours according to your description and pictures. 23 touring. I locally tour several times a week with several others in our club. These often involve a picnic which started with the pandemic.
Get to know other nearby owners if possible. They offer a lot of support.

Art Mirtes

[Les Schubert]

I would start by putting a straight edge on the front of the crankshaft pulley and see how it lines up to the fan pulley.

[Alan Long]

Is that Fan on back to front?
Alan in Western Australia

[TXGOAT2]

With properly crowned pulleys, no pulley flange is needed. It was common practice to run both large and small farm equipment off stationary engines or a tractor PTO pulley with flat belts that were twisted half a turn when joined.

[Allan]

Pat, your is an interesting observation re the crown in the pulleys. I have found that the larger cast iron crankshaft pulley that comes on Canadian cars keeps its crown well. By 'adjusting the fan arm so the belt runs in the middle of the crank pulley, aluminium fan pulleys like the one that is the subject of this post do not need to have a crown. I have seen them operating quite successfully with one or other of the flanges almost worn razor sharp. Perhaps the flanges were used as 'insurance' to keep the belt tracking.

Allan from down under.

[jab35]

The fan pulley definitely needs recrowning or replacement. Some years ago there was a post where an aluminum fan pulley was re-crowned using a lathe. Simple enough if there's enough material remaining and you have access to a lathe. Before you work on the pulley try wrapping several layers of tape around the center of the pulley to create a crown and then replace the belt and run it briefly to verify the crown effect. The tape is NOT a fix however. Best, jb

[Norman Kling]

Someone above posted "think outside the box" so I will think outside the box.
How does your magneto work? If you still have a magneto and it doesn't produce much you might have wear in the 3rd main. As you run in low gear or in neutral, there is constant wear on thrust surface on the front of the cap which will eventually cause the crankshaft to move toward the back of the engine. This would move the pulley back too. Usually not as much as a quarter inch or you would also have problems with the rods or the wrist pins contacting the cylinder walls. But it would cause a few thousandths movement. To find out if this is true, try pushing down the low pedal and then put the parking brake lever forward into the high position and get out and under and try prying between the front of the engine and the pulley. If the crankshaft moves forward you have endplay in the crankshaft. Don't pry too hard to break something. Also notice whether the pulley moves on the crankshaft when you do this.
Another thing I suspect. There might be something such as a washer pushing the shaft on the top pulley forward. If you replace this pulley, you will need to remove this shaft and you can check it out. It is unlikely that the bracket which runs from the engine to the pulley would be bent. I am not familiar with whether those brackets vary from year to year, but if they do, it might not be original to the year of the engine.
I have a car on which the belt used to come off I did replace the lower pulley with one of the newer ones which has the flange. The hole in the crankshaft and the pin which went through were worn and the original pulley wobbled. The new pulley if proper for the year of the engine, fits great and has an additional set screw to keep it in place. The leather belts can stretch on one side and once that happens it is impossible to keep centered on the pulleys. A modern belt of the proper length stays on fine. Made out of neoprene or some kind of synthetic rubber. It can be a bit more narrow than the original belt, but still stays on.

Norm

[TXGOAT2]

Non-crowned flanged pulleys that are out of line significantly will allow the belt to run up against one or both flanges, which will destroy it pretty quickly. I suspect that flanged pulleys on a T serve little purpose other than to prevent oil getting on the belt.

[FordFool]

Could it be for the 3 row radiator used in 26?? Just a thought.

[jab35]

The 'extended fan' hub for the thin radiator had the same belt track, the front of the hub was extended to move fan blade closer to the (way too) thin core. jb

[Allan]

You are correct Pat. I have seen fan pulleys with the flange almost entirely worn off one side or the other. However, it doesn't happen if the lower pulley is crowned and the top pulley is correctly aligned. The lower pulley keeps the belt running as it should and if the belt is up against the top pulley flange, that pulley is out of alignment. The belt will not track back and forward on a correctly crowned lower pulley, so will not alternately run on the back or front flange on the top pulley.

Allan from down under.

[Altair]

You must remember that many of the parts were made by at least 4 different manufactures and may vary slightly and there were also after market makers of various parts. Sometimes you are
just lucky if they line up. Some times looking at the castings will reveal a different maker. You have to remain flexible.

[5 WoodenWheels]

I wanted to thank everyone for your helpful comments and advice and offer an update. I've replaced the belt, put everything back together and ran the car for a few minutes. The whole point of this exercise was to make sure there were no leaks after eliminating the water pump. Good news--no leaks.

Now, back to the pulley issue: It appears the two pulleys are slightly offset when comparing the flanges and how they line up. Maybe not as much as a half-inch as I'd originally suggested, but they're slightly out-of-line. It doesn't appear to matter; the belt tracks fine and is not running up against the edge of the pulleys or doing anything strange. On the advice of a member of my local club I put the old fan pulley back on to evaluate how everything was working together. I can always replace the pulley with a new one since the consensus is that it's worn out.

Thanks again---Gerrit

[Norman Kling]

One other thought. Do not run the belt too tight. If it is tightened just to the point you can rest your hand on the blade and it will not turn, but with just a very slight push it will turn, it is about right. The idea is to leave loose enough so the centrifugal force will push the belt away from the pulley and on to the high point in the center. If you get it too tight, it will stretch on one side, whichever side has the high point of the pulley, since the pulleys are out of line.
Norm

[5 WoodenWheels]

Norman,

Thanks, that’s actually something I wanted to know. Seems the running engines I’ve seen had belts that looked a bit floppy. I think I have mine tightened within the parameters you suggested. I appreciate the tip. Gerrit

[jab35]

Gerrit: Norman's advice is 50-50. Belt tension recommendations are correct. The 1924 Ford service bulletin recommends fan belt tension should be loose enough so that a force of 5 lbs applied to the fan blade 6" from center will cause slip. The "centrifugal force will push the belt away from the pulley and on to the high point" statement is false. The flat belt will 'seek' the high point of the pulley crown due to geometry and belt elasticity even at very low rpm. There are a number of on-line references demonstrating this fact. As others have pointed out, it is critical that the crank shaft and fan shaft axes are parallel for any flat belt to track properly. Respectfully, jb

[TXGOAT2]

physics of a flat belt and pulleys?
[Search domain practicalmachinist.com] https://www.practicalmachinist.com › vb › antique-machinery-and-history › physics-flat-belt-pulleys-396757
physics of a flat belt and pulleys? I am working on a camelback drill press. It has a motor mounted up around eye height with a 3.25" flat pulley with a slight crown on it. Below that on the jackshaft is an 18" flat pulley. Both pulleys are slightly over 3" wid

[TXGOAT2]

Look online for pictures of steam threshing outfits. Note the way flat belts were used.

[5 WoodenWheels]

For the remark about seeing flat belts in action, I've been to many steam tractor demonstrations at tractor shows and always marvel at how the very long belts stay on pulleys that have no flanges to keep them on. Then they cross the belt over itself to drive a machine that has to operate in reverse of what the belt would normally do. These are usually big sawmills and smaller operations like shingle cutters and of course the ever-popular rock crusher. My car is doing fine at the moment, but I've only run it a little bit with the new belt on. Thanks again for the replies. Gerrit

[tfordme]

Could it be for the 3 row radiator used in 26?? Just a thought.

I think yes it looks like.