Side Curtains for Touring 1916

[rainer]

Hello, and a Happy Easter Sunday from Austria.

Yesterday I had a little trip with my son's family in my Lizzy. The weather was ..... , it was cold and very windy. So I decided to close the top. but it worked like a parachute when driving , roads I drove before in high gear without any issue I had to drive in low gear, and my daughter in law + grand children were freezing in the rear of the car. This made me think about side curtains, they will for sure be helpful when we get into rain, too.

My top already has some mounts for side curtains installed. See following pictures.

From outside to the roof irons

Point towards inner of the car

I had a look at Lang's, they sell Side Curtains for ~ 740 $ without shipping. This is a lot of mones, si I want to be sure before order. Lang's recommends to find out the body type before ordering -> I definitely have a Two Man Top on a 1914-1925 USA Touring. Two doors right, one door left. Rear doors with latches on rear side.

• What makes me a bit more nervous are this preinstalled mounts for side curtains. Will they fit to the side curtains?
• I have no idea how side curtains are mounted. Upper side is self explaining, but are they strapped down, or do they only hang down?
• If strapped down, where are the straps mounted? Somehow the curtains will have to open with the doors to allow to enter or leave the car.
• To protect against water getting into the car, I assume the curtains will overlap the doors on outside.

It will be very helpful if you could show me pictures of mounted side curtains, showing me how/where they are mounted, how doors (and curtains) open.

Thank you very much.

Rainer

[Original Smith]

Side curtains are an interesting topic, and not something you just jump into without doing the proper research. Do your homework, and seek out original examples. Be patient. I have made them myself, after researching everything. I also don't like the modern replacement common sense fasteners. I prefer to find originals

[Erik Johnson]

Click on the link below to see the original factory side curtains and top boot from the 1917 "Rip Van Winkle" touring. 1916 side curtains are the same as 1917.

Note that they are not installed completely up front most likely due to shrinkage.

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50 ... 1432858576

My father also has the original side curtains for his 1917 touring which is one month newer than the Rip Van Winkle touring. Both cars were purchased new in Minnesota so they were most likely assembled at the plant in downtown Minneapolis. His curtains are identical to the Rip Van Winkle curtains.

I wouldn't worry about side curtains until you get your top situation corrected as you showed in your other thread.

[TXGOAT2]

WARNING! Non-expert opinion!: It looks to me like your back curtain is too short, which is causing your entire top assembly to be prevented from moving forward into the correct closed position. I think this is the cause of the poor fit at the windshield header. If that is the case, it seems likley to me that side curtains made to the correct pattern will not fit your car correctly until the top issue is corrected. It might be possible to replace the back curtain only to get the top to fit correctly.

[rainer]

Hello, TXGOAT2

WARNING! Non-expert opinion!: It looks to me like your back curtain is too short, which is causing your entire top assembly to be prevented from moving forward into the correct closed position. I think this is the cause of the poor fit at the windshield header. If that is the case, it seems likely to me that side curtains made to the correct pattern will not fit properly your car correctly until the top issue is corrected. It might be possible to replace the back curtain only to get the top to fit correctly.

Also being no expert, I finally got to the same result as you. See my other thread for my "solution".
The entire top is one piece (sewn). It seems to be almost new, so I do not want to destroy it because it is at most 1 inch too short in the back. Also I primarily will drive the car mostly at sunny weather, this side curtains are a last option when being at a Model T tour with others, when it starts to rain. I don't want to get the inner side covers soaked by rain (they are only cardboard with some textile surface and 99% original), and side curtains are a good protection if they overlap 4-5 inches on outside.

Watching the geometry of all this top mechanism - and how far every point moves if the length of the back side is increased - I do not think this will have important changes to the side curtains. The under side left and right is already straight. Making the back longer will shift the top 1-2" to the front only.
Based on this, what happens with side curtains? They are shifted a bit to the back, this is the only difference. So the worst thing that can happen is a little gap between windshield and the front end of the curtain and some excess material on back end (which can be hidden in a fold).

Actually I have never seen side curtains installed. I have no idea how they are mounted therefore.
If I could see some pictures, it would be very helpful. What I could find out is: They are mounted at a few points to the top. But this never can be sufficient, the wind will blow them away. They will need some additional tension downwards. In this point only the arms where the Two Man Top is hooked in, appear plausible. There I can strap the curtains down and it is still possible to open the doors to enter the car.
Still missing detail to me: The front and back end of side curtains, and how they are mounted to the body and rear top.

For sure I am not willing to drill holes into the car body or use the bolts of the windshield to mount something permanently, but there must be something stabilizing the curtain front end. I can make some steel plates with a little tube welded to them, and mount this little holders permanently to the inner of the car body. There I can slide in metal sticks for holding the front ends. (Only as an example, regardless if this is original or not.) If the curtains don't fit well because everything is shifted 1-2" backwards, I will sew another part to extend them from same material. This is for sure a good way, too, as this is only used in seldom cases.

But I would like to see correctly mounted side curtains to understand how they are normally mounted. This little pictures from Lang's are far away from telling this details.

[Allan]

Rainer, given your poorly aligned top, prepared side curtains will never fit. If you can order some with none of the eyelets and fittings in place, you may be able to custom fit them to your top"s fastenings.
However, they would no longer fit your top if you get to fix it properly.
When I built my 1915 Canadian tourer, I ordered the top kit and specified the side curtains be supplied without the fittings. Even then, two curtains required sewing to get them to fit properly before I positioned all the fittings.
Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.

[aDave]

Ranier,
I am no expert, but I had pretty good luck by going to an upholstery shop that made side curtains for boats. The viewing area is very large, and they fit reasonably well. The shop installed the necessary fasteners to the top. the bottoms are loose. There is no heater in my 1915 touring, but on a sunny day with the black top absorbing the sun's rays, and the side curtains installed, the interior is fairly comfortable.
FInd a boat yard and investigate.
Good Luck.
Dave

[rainer]

Hello.

I have had a long thinking about side curtains. I also looked on the pictures in the link of Erik Johnson, and this pictures finally showed me how they are used and mounted. This was really enlightening, Thanks, Erik.

I think I will delay this idea of side curtains until I am in the mood to make my own ones. This will be lots cheaper than 600-700$ and also to their job. Also they will then match my misaligned top better.
Only need to find out if my wife's sewing machine is strong enough. But I can use thinner material, not the thick one used for trailer covers, and soft PVC for the windows, that should work.

Until then, I will take some canvas from DIY market and make them fit.

But thanks for all the hints. Also the drawings with dimensions were very helpful.
I removed the remaining brass shims, reoriented the bows a bit better, and then mounted them again, including the shims where the screws didn't hold. Now the top has at least fewer wrinkles.

[WayneJ]

Making your own side curtains is probably a good idea. Most home sewing machines will sew top material provided they have the proper needle. You will need a needle specifically designed for sewing leather. They have more of a chisel point, to puncture the material. If your existing machine cannot handle it (unlikely) you may be able to find a vintage (pre-1960) sewing machine inexpensively. Here in the States a vintage Singer straight stitch machine such as a Singer 66 or Singer 15 can generally be found for less than $50, and will do the job. If you go this route, try and obtain one with a reverse stitch function (generally 1930 or newer).

The side curtain fasteners generally attach to the seat upholstery outside tack strip, and the inside of the wooden part of the top bows. You should not need to make holes in the sheet metal. On original 1916 side curtains, each side had two points of fastening to the windshield area. One was a strap that went around the side light. The other was an eyelet on the top edge of the side curtain where it tucked behind the top bow area which hangs in front of the windshield. The eyelet attaches to a "Murphy" type fastener on the inside of the windshield top bow. Because you have clearance issues with your windshield, you may not have enough room for a Murphy fastener on your top bow. Here is a photo of an original 1916 touring with the side curtains installed.

Here is an alternative fastening method shown on a 1919 Model T. I am not sure it is an original design, but if you are making your own curtains, it does not matter, you can adopt the ideas. Here a strap on the top corner of the side curtain snaps to the "storm / wind flap" which is fastened to the inside edge of the top bow and hangs in front of the windshield. The strap that goes around the side light is shown. This example also has straps and cutouts to go around side mirrors and windshield hinge.

Here is a photo of my 1915 roadster, which shows the location of the "Murphy" fasteners installed on the outside seat upholstery tack edge. I installed my side curtains last summer. The curtains I purchased did not have the fasteners installed. I can appreciate your frustration, because without an example to follow, it was hard to determine how the fasteners should be placed. I believe I got it "more or less" correct. I found it helpful to install the "Murphy" fasteners on the outside seat upholstery tack edge first. Then make a paper pattern of the side curtains. Determine the location of the eyelets on the paper pattern first (cut and paste is your friend here), and then transfer the location of the eyelets form the paper pattern to the side curtains.

In a similar fashion, I installed the "Murphy" type fasteners on the appropriate locations of the inside top bows, determined the location of the eyelets on the paper pattern, and then transferred the location to the actual side curtain. My T isn't very accessible at the moment, so I cannot post more photos. But I am happy to help you out any way I can, and can provide more photos in a month or so.

Langs, and other venders, sell the necessary fasteners separately. They also sell a nifty tool (43007T) for installing the eyelets. I am sure you can find both the fasteners and the same type of tool locally, and save on shipping. The tool was expensive, but worth it for me.

I found a photo of the inside of a touring, showing the location of the fasteners, which you might find helpful.

76281b.jpg (57.99 KiB) Viewed 1815 times

Good luck & have fun!!