pan straightening/support question

[Tom Dove Jr]

As I'll be rebuilding/reassembling then engine/transmission in my 25 Touring soon, the topic of straightening/verifying the pan comes up every time a rebuild is taking place. Obviously this is a concern for all regardless of the year of manufacture.

Is there a method of reinforcement or bracing available that will keep the pan from being "tweeked" or bent during normal driving? Or is this something that just needs to be lived with and checked periodically?

Thanks!

Tom
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[RajoRacer]

Normal driving won't cause a c.c. to come out of alignment - a front end accident is the likely culprit of tweaking the c.c. as the front radius rod has it's connection point located there. If you have a 4 dip c.c., then the pan arm to block supports ('26-'27 block) are highly recommended..

[Rich P. Bingham]

Doubtless crank case alignment is the key to a healthy rebuild, many serious failures can result in time from a warped crank case. My question, what, if any procedures can be utilized to check alignment and correct it if the proper, heavy anvil-like alignment "table" is unavailable ?

[Norman Kling]

Use a 26-27 engine and transmission with the 4 dip pan. It also has the reinforcements under the back side of the pan and hogs head and the straps from the bolts in the center to the side of the frame.
Norm

[Dan Hatch]

You guys do know that brand new pan jigs are being made. They were for sale at Luray. Look just like the original ones. Dan

[speedytinc]

Doubtless crank case alignment is the key to a healthy rebuild, many serious failures can result in time from a warped crank case. My question, what, if any procedures can be utilized to check alignment and correct it if the proper, heavy anvil-like alignment "table" is unavailable ?

My experience with rebuilds:
Thats typically putting the same pan back on. The key is the 4th main must perfectly center in the pan.
None have been off too much. (unless the pan was exchanged or SANDBLASTED to restore.)
The transmission center shaft then the output plate once the transmission is assembled MUST be checked for perfect alignment as a prelude.

As I mount the pan,(motor in a vertical position) I check the 4th main fit. (4 bolts spread about on the block) If the 4th main is not a perfect set, I mount another core 4th main & adjust the end of the pan with a 2 X 4 against the pan & a big hammer to provide persuasion until the new 4th main slides into its correct position.
This method was all that was required in the last half dozen builds.

[RajoRacer]

I've run into a situation where the front of the c.c. on the 4 dip near the ball socket had been "pushed" in obviously from a front end collision or extreme mishandling to a point the flywheel rubbed inside the pan ! All pans should be checked prior to installation.

[Tom Dove Jr]

This is all GREAT information, and it will all be used in my build. The alignment of the 4th main was the real concern.

I'm not looking for a performance engine, as such, but it will need to be balanced with a few period correct upgrades. Would like to spend some time traveling on the older highways and byways bypassing the Interstates and large metro areas.

Really looking at US 20 coast-to-coast (Newport, OR to Boston, MA), doubling back to Chicago then dropping to US50 to home. It'll take a few years to get to the point where that trip can take place but that's the target at this project's inception.

Thanks so much to everyone!!

Tom
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[Dan Hatch]

I have never seen a pan that the arms were not bent in some form or another. The only thing I know that can check that is a good pan jig.
I have had a few pans so bent that they were not worth fixing. I don’t think they were in a wreck either. Ford manual says to check every pan when you are rebuilding an engine. Dan

[speedytinc]

A neighbor has a pan, NOS in the crate. The thing is such a pretzel, I wouldnt try to straighten it.
It appears thru time & temperature cycles the pan is trying to straighten itself out to its original pre-formed condition

[speedytinc]

I have never seen a pan that the arms were not bent in some form or another. The only thing I know that can check that is a good pan jig.
I have had a few pans so bent that they were not worth fixing. I don’t think they were in a wreck either. Ford manual says to check every pan when you are rebuilding an engine. Dan

Remember, in the day, they didnt have the smooth roads we have today.
All that frame flexing over non existent roads are bound to have put crank cases out of alignment.

[Dan Hatch]

The way the pans were made, they should warp just sitting there. They were stamped something like 7 or more times and were anealed in between each stamping. Looks like something just wanting to warp by itself.
I was told the new pans for the T100 project were so warped when it was time to rebuild the engine that they were replaced with 100 year old original pans. Ford could not make them as good it 2000 as they did in 1914. May not be true but what I heard.
Anyway, I check and straighten each pan on engines I do. On a KRW pan jig. Dan

[Distagon2]

Dan, I did NOT know that new pan jigs were being made and sold. Can you provide me with any more details? I would be interested after all I went through to find someone who had a jig. And, I have two Model T's.....and some friends with Model T's.

[Dan Hatch]

Find latest issue of International magazine, there is an ad in it.
$6000.00 + shipping me thinks. They look great, just like my original. Dan

[DanTreace]

Dan, I did NOT know that new pan jigs were being made and sold. Can you provide me with any more details? I would be interested after all I went through to find someone who had a jig. And, I have two Model T's.....and some friends with Model T's.

Here is the new pan jig at Luray Swap meet. All new casting of heavy iron base, and top, made to spec. Includes all the fixtures.

Contact Greg Stewart. (Five1Eight) 424-SevenZeroEightSix (NY)

[Dan Hatch]

One other thing about KRW pan jigs. Make a great chopping block for kindling for wood stove!

[Tom Dove Jr]

YIKES!! Those jigs are not for every garage, to be sure!

Tom
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[Dan Hatch]

Last original I saw for sale about 5+ years ago was at Chickasha and sold for between 3.5 and 4 K. It was not complete. Dan

[RajoRacer]

I chased one for many years that was used in a Lake Washington marina with emery cloth attached for flattening out aluminum outboard heads - never did purchase it & don't know if'n it's even still there !

[Allan]

If your 1925 T has a four dip pan, you are starting with a problem. These pans are weaker due to the shape of the pan and the wishbone mounting underneath. It did not take Ford long to add the bosses to the hogshead and mountings on the block to take the two bolts to stiffen up the assembly.

Allan from down under.

[Tom Dove Jr]

If your 1925 T has a four dip pan, you are starting with a problem.

Allen, and I do have the 4 dip pan. I'll be going through all the pieces/parts to see what items may be available for my "stock pile" that accompanied the car.

Tom
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[babychadwick]

YIKES!! Those jigs are not for every garage, to be sure!

Tom
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I wonder how big flat rate boxes are made . . .

[ModelTWoods]

Find latest issue of International magazine, there is an ad in it.
$6000.00 + shipping me thinks. They look great, just like my original. Dan

A little pricey for the average T owner. Even a little pricey for a whole club. Unless you plan on going in the pan straightening business, one is better off paying someone who has one, to straighten it for them, even if he has to drive or ship the pan, hundreds of miles to be straightened.

[havnfun]

I built my own pan jig for less than $500, works fantastic, I drilled every hole, so I can bolt easily in place, tap all around with a hammer and leave sit in place overnight.

[speedytinc]

Very nice.
How thick is the plate?
Approximate weight?

[havnfun]

The plate is two 1/2 inch thick plates bolted together, Heavy very heavy, I use a mini skidster to move it, or disassemble and move. Each plate is heavy around 100lbs my guess and base is another couple hundred lbs.
Here are couple pictures of straightening

[havnfun]

Here is a 1913 pan being straightened

[Humblej]

Ugh! Its really that bad?!!

[Tom Dove Jr]

That looks really substantial! There are a couple of clubs close to me here that I’m looking to research to find a fit. Perhaps one will have a device of this kind.

Tom
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[TXGOAT2]

That pan must have the radius rod socket mashed in to be that far out of alignment.

[BobUkPipedream]

I hesitate to post again… I don’t think the way I did things below is shady or dodgy…

So I did not have access to a pan jig. There may be a jig in the UK, but I could not find one. So I started by hammering the pan holes back to straight with a dolly as people over tighten the pan bolts and that makes it hard to sight things up. Then I sighted up the pan by eye and could see it was twisted and also a banana shape. So I bent it, hammered edges and such until it looked good by eye, then I offered it up to the block which was by then nose down on my homemade engine assembly stand. I had already got the runout on the output shaft down to 3 thou or so (Mike Bender’s excellent videos on youtube say 6 thou is acceptable). I dry assembled everything with gaskets in place and then tried the fourth main and much to my shock it slipped in place and lined up exactly and I mean exactly. It may have been luck (I was due some), but sighting it up by eye did seem to be quite easy and repeatable. I then discovered on final assembly with sealant that the fourth main was still absolutely spot on, however it needed shims under the flange on the pan side to make it square to the shaft. Some people may have not noticed it, but I felt the engine tighten up. I used I think 10 thou shims under the flange and it went very smooth. I used Sikaflex 221 polyurethane sealant adhesive on the pan to fourth main and silicone on the hogshead to fourth main half so that it will be easy to remove the hogshead in the future. Sikaflex can be a little too good at sticking stuff together, but that kept the fourth main firmly in place when I put the engine in.

The way I see it (which may be wrong and people may shoot me down in flames) is that pan alignment all comes down to how that fourth main fits when the engine is nose down. If it fits, then I believe that is all that matters, but I do wonder if other people worry about the fourth main flange as it pulls down on to the flange of the pan and hogshead. I suppose the Babbitt would wear but that would mean excess clearance in the Babbitt. Perhaps I worry over nothing, but I feel a lot better knowing that the shaft is running true and cantered in that fourth main.