Removing “Dummy bearings” from rear axle tubes with safety hubs

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Removing “Dummy bearings” from rear axle tubes with safety hubs

Post by Ruxstel24 » Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:27 pm

Before I fight myself or damage something...
Does the dummy bearings/sleeves just pop out after removing the lock screw where the grease cup would be ? Or will I need to rig it up in my press ?
I need to replace the axle seals that are behind them.
I have a slide hammer with a bearing removal attachment for the bearings, which should do the trick. Or I can pull the inner hub off and press it too. The bearings seem right but I will replace them anyway after all this.
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Re: Removing “Dummy bearings” from rear axle tubes with safety hubs

Post by Mark Gregush » Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:46 pm

"I have a slide hammer with a bearing removal attachment for the bearings", I would try that after taking the set screw out.
I will comment on what you are calling safety hubs. They look to be a just bearing hub that rides on the plug stub, like a Model A and later Fords. I would not call them safety hubs at all, unless there is a device that locks the hub to rear axle and I am not seeing one.
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :shock:

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Re: Removing “Dummy bearings” from rear axle tubes with safety hubs

Post by Henry K. Lee » Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:19 pm

Dave,

Looks like over time a lot of moisture has migrated in there. Those are very early safety hubs which work just fine. When you get it out, clean the surfaces well, then before re-installing, apply a very light coat of some gasket maker silicone all over the that insert before installing. Keeps the heat to condensation transfer from occurring.

Hope this Helps,

Hank

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Re: Removing “Dummy bearings” from rear axle tubes with safety hubs

Post by Ruxstel24 » Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:23 pm

Mark, from what I understand, these are an early version of the modern safety hubs.
The only difference is the new ones have a snap ring on the outside between the spokes. This will hold things together if an axle snaps.
I’m considering cutting a grove for a ring. The weight is still being taken off the axle shaft and onto the housing, so I think the likelihood of a breaking an axle is much less.

The slide hammer might work, but I have the axle all apart and not easy to support to whack on it, but maybe they’ll come out easier than I expect.

Hank, I was going to put some sealer around there and the axle to hub fit. I had oil in the brakes, but shouldn’t with this set up right.

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Re: Removing “Dummy bearings” from rear axle tubes with safety hubs

Post by RajoRacer » Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:28 pm

It's a "safety" hub alright although I've not seen them "come from together" like yours - the axle tube spud should be a press fit into the bearing.

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Re: Removing “Dummy bearings” from rear axle tubes with safety hubs

Post by Henry K. Lee » Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:47 pm

Dave I am writing myself a note, I have some part numbers for spring support modern seals, which you should for a small fee have the rear recessed to fit. Also you can have a groove cut on the outside for an o-ring towards the inside before the locking set screw. If you do not have a machine shop near you or if they are way over priced as many are now days due to CNC work, Feel free to contact me. For parts and postage will take care of them for you!

All the Best,

Hank

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Re: Removing “Dummy bearings” from rear axle tubes with safety hubs

Post by Henry K. Lee » Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:54 pm

Here is what I am talking about.

IMG_2251.jpeg
IMG_2441.jpeg


Hank
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Re: Removing “Dummy bearings” from rear axle tubes with safety hubs

Post by Ruxstel24 » Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:02 pm

I greatly appreciate it Hank !
I have a good friend who’s a machinist :D
I want to get it apart and see what’s in there now. There’s a remnant of a modern seal rubber on the shaft and the rest looks like it is behind the dummy shaft. Once I get it out, I hope I can match this stuff up at Akron Bearing supply.
I believe the dummy or stub shaft has a couple o-rings now that I’ll replace.
Probably looks similar to yours.

Steve, are you saying the whole assembly should come out of the housing when removing the wheel ? And the modern bearings are pressed on the dummy shaft ? I had no trouble with the hub puller popping the taper loose and the wheels slid off with little effort. As long as the axle nut is on and the axle shaft doesn’t break... it ain’t goin nowhere.


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Re: Removing “Dummy bearings” from rear axle tubes with safety hubs

Post by Les Schubert » Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:04 pm

Steve
Just wondering about your “press fit” comment on the inside race. Press fit on the rotating race is the rule. A slip fit on the non rotating race is just fine! Otherwise you run the risk of removing all the internal clearance in the bearings


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Re: Removing “Dummy bearings” from rear axle tubes with safety hubs

Post by Allan » Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:32 pm

When I made these I found considerable variiation in the diameter and the machined finish in the axle housings. Consequently, the clearance between the spiggot and the housing means a press fit is not readily achievable, or necessary.
I do not install them with solicone as a seal because it can make removal difficult. I use a Loktite 510 flange sealant which does not harden. It also means that an O ring or two are redundant complications.
IIf you have difficulty pulling the spiggots you could drill and tap two holes in the end so a couple of studs can be fitted to allow the whole to be pulled out.
Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.

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Re: Removing “Dummy bearings” from rear axle tubes with safety hubs

Post by ewdysar » Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:45 pm

Ruxstel24 wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:02 pm
As long as the axle nut is on and the axle shaft doesn’t break... it ain’t goin nowhere.
I thought that the point of safety hubs was to keep the wheel on the car when the axle shaft breaks. My “floating” safety hubs look like the pics that Hank posted, the flange of the bearing assembly is bolted to the wheel and the long part with the inner bearing and seal slips around the axle and into the axle tube and gets retained by a lock bolt that replaced the grease fitting on the inner side of the brake backing plate. That bolt is not a set screw holding the bearing carrier tight, but it acts as a removable “bump” inside the axle tube that the fat interior end of the bearing carrier cannot slip past. To remove my rear wheel now, I have to remove the lock bolt and the whole hub and bearing assembly pulls out of the axle tube by hand in one piece with the wheel after removing the axle nut and breaking the taper loose.

From your pic, it looks like the flange of your safety hub and outer bearing have separated from bearing carrier that slips into the axle tube. I didn’t know that they could come apart while still bolted to the wheel. But yeah, the bearing carrier inside the axle tube should pull right out after removing the lock screw.

Eric


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Re: Removing “Dummy bearings” from rear axle tubes with safety hubs

Post by Allan » Wed Dec 04, 2019 3:09 am

Eric, the difference is in the terminology. A floating hub takes the weight off the axles and transfers it to the axle housing, like it does in trucks. A "safety" hub is a floating hub with a retainer of some sort to stop the wheel coming off the spiggot.

When fitting "safety" hubs, how is the inner seal kept undamaged as it passes over the axle key and how is the axle key held in place during fitting?

Allan from down under.


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Re: Removing “Dummy bearings” from rear axle tubes with safety hubs

Post by Philip » Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:47 am

Allen.you taped the key at the top and carefully push the hub in holding it high so the
Seal slips over the key. Philip

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Re: Removing “Dummy bearings” from rear axle tubes with safety hubs

Post by Henry K. Lee » Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:30 am

This is on my 1960 British built Ford Zephyr MK2 sedan, Talk about AWESOME engineering! A real floating safety hub.

IMG_2243.jpeg

All the Best,

Hank

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Re: Removing “Dummy bearings” from rear axle tubes with safety hubs

Post by Henry K. Lee » Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:50 am

It only has 12,600 original miles, really!


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Re: Removing “Dummy bearings” from rear axle tubes with safety hubs

Post by Randall strickland » Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:18 am

I removed a set of these bearing for a freind a while back,I have a huge press and on one it was supper hard to press out ,he had already tried driving them out with a big hammer,the other one came out easier,I think there is a differance in the bore sizes.

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Re: Removing “Dummy bearings” from rear axle tubes with safety hubs

Post by Ruxstel24 » Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:48 am

I hope to get back to this maybe Sunday, supposed to be warmer and my press is in my not heated barn behind my garage.

My opinion is that this setup, regardless of not holding the wheel on in an axle shearing event, will greatly reduce the chance of breaking an axle.
I just wonder what others think about this.
Anyone running a similar setup ever had an axle shaft break ? I think the weight being supported by the shaft and Hyatt bearings is the “breaking point” when they do break. I don’t think I have enough torque to twist one off... :lol:

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Re: Removing “Dummy bearings” from rear axle tubes with safety hubs

Post by Henry K. Lee » Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:01 am

Since the load is removed from the axle at the Hyatt housing, the chances of breaking an axle is so slim vs original. The clip type was added more so for high performance and added peace of mind. I have never seen or heard of a stock or semi stock T having any issues with these.

For what it worth,

Hank

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Re: Removing “Dummy bearings” from rear axle tubes with safety hubs

Post by Henry K. Lee » Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:02 am

Evolution of a device with added features!

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Re: Removing “Dummy bearings” from rear axle tubes with safety hubs

Post by Ruxstel24 » Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:26 am

Yeah, don’t see any chance of this happening... :shock:
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Re: Removing “Dummy bearings” from rear axle tubes with safety hubs

Post by Henry K. Lee » Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:30 am

Seen a couple of those before from semi trucks in super combination gearing. Real torque!

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Re: Removing “Dummy bearings” from rear axle tubes with safety hubs

Post by RajoRacer » Wed Dec 04, 2019 11:19 am

I agree that the "assembly" is captive - I run Dan Mc.E's safety hubs and they don't "come from together" like Dave's photos above --- and I'm not a "machinist" Les so perhaps I misspoke regarding the press fit.

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Re: Removing “Dummy bearings” from rear axle tubes with safety hubs

Post by Mark Gregush » Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:18 pm

I would call those just floating hubs, they take the strain off the axle and put it on the tube. Here is a setup that looks about the same but notice the plate added to end of pressed in hub also the bearing is held captive between the flanges;
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/82 ... 1517604215
Here is a posting that shows what can happen if the axle breaks, would not matter if in the taper or back more;
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/70 ... 1486780543
I wish I could find an ad for them, but think they were sold as floating hubs not safety hubs that would hold the wheel on if the axle did break. Unless there are any cracks in the axle these should work just fine and as posted above should take the strain off the axle shaft and help prevent broken axles.
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :shock:

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Re: Removing “Dummy bearings” from rear axle tubes with safety hubs

Post by Allan » Wed Dec 04, 2019 4:39 pm

Phillip, how then do you remove the tape before the hub engages on the taper?

Allan from down under.


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Re: Removing “Dummy bearings” from rear axle tubes with safety hubs

Post by Philip » Thu Dec 05, 2019 6:36 am

Sorry Allen i meant to say taper. You grind the key where the axle taper stops on the big end.
I don't have a picture but a search should find one. Philip

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Re: Removing “Dummy bearings” from rear axle tubes with safety hubs

Post by Ruxstel24 » Sun Dec 08, 2019 1:49 pm

So I tried the slide hammer on the dummy bearings today. Problem is that the dummy and the rivets are too close together for the bit to flip and catch only the dummy.
Also the ID of the rivets inside the tube are about the same as the dummy bearing. So I can’t catch it easily from the inside.
Any suggestions ?
I also got the seal out, but don’t see getting it back in without pulling the pieces out.
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Re: Removing “Dummy bearings” from rear axle tubes with safety hubs

Post by Henry K. Lee » Sun Dec 08, 2019 4:23 pm

Dave you might have to drill and tap to 1/4” x 20 thread wells 180 degrees out from each other, install grade 8 bolts with a bar and use your slide hammer that way.

Hope this Helps,

Hank

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Re: Removing “Dummy bearings” from rear axle tubes with safety hubs

Post by Ruxstel24 » Sun Dec 08, 2019 4:54 pm

Good idea Hank !!
I think I have something that I can push against from inside and found an old spool fits nicely on the outside to support it.
Gonna try to get it in my press this way tomorrow.
I found a 3/8” flat bar that’s wide enough and just clears the rivets on both ends of the tube.
If this is a no go, I’ll try the drill/tap trick.


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Re: Removing “Dummy bearings” from rear axle tubes with safety hubs

Post by Allan » Sun Dec 08, 2019 5:20 pm

Hank, that is how I make mine, holes drilled and tapped just for that purpose, as I mentioned in an earlier post. If for some reason they are pressed in, it may take a press to get them out again .That will require some tricky bits to engage on the inner end of the spiggot and to support the backing plate in the press.
Fingers crossed!

Allan from down under.

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Re: Removing “Dummy bearings” from rear axle tubes with safety hubs

Post by Ruxstel24 » Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:17 am

I got the sleeve out !! :D
Before getting it in my press, I found the piece of flat steel I had was still hitting a rivet inside the tube.
I eventually found a large axle nut from a half shaft from something. Dropped it in the tube and fished it past the rivets and it caught the sleeve. Long brass punch and sitting up on the old spool, knocked right out with little effort.
I think it will work better on the other side with the seal still in place. ;)
Thanks all for your help and suggestions. 8-)
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Re: Removing “Dummy bearings” from rear axle tubes with safety hubs

Post by Henry K. Lee » Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:35 am

Happy for you Dave!

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Re: Removing “Dummy bearings” from rear axle tubes with safety hubs

Post by Mark Gregush » Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:09 am

Great!
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :shock:

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