1909 Touring, anyone seen it?

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Bob McDaniel
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1909 Touring, anyone seen it?

Post by Bob McDaniel » Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:07 pm

1909 Touring 1.1.jpg
1909 Touring 1.3.jpg
1909 Touring 1.4.jpg
1909 Touring 1.5.jpg
1909 Touring 1.6.jpg
My wife saw this one and I know how much everyone likes to look at pictures so check it out.
Give an old car guy a barn and he won't throw anything away.

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Re: 1909 Touring, anyone seen it?

Post by Bob McDaniel » Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:10 pm

1909 Touring 1.7.jpg
1909 Touring 1.8.jpg
1909 Touring 1.9.jpg
1909 Touring 1.10.jpg
1909 Touring 1.11.jpg
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Re: 1909 Touring, anyone seen it?

Post by wayne sheldon » Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:11 am

The body looks like it may be an original? The front axle is 1911 or later. Beyond that? I can't say.

I should add that it looks really nice and like someone is trying to make it better. All in all, I do like it!


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Re: 1909 Touring, anyone seen it?

Post by wayne sheldon » Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:04 am

I just had to look at it a bit more. Is it someone you know?


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Re: 1909 Touring, anyone seen it?

Post by BobShirleyAtlantaTx » Mon Feb 18, 2019 8:31 am

I believe this automobile was on Craigslist a couple of weeks ago. Thinking it was in Kansas City. Later axels and motor, but a Pontiac aluminum body. I’m thinking he said the lamps are repos, but still what a find.

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Re: 1909 Touring, anyone seen it?

Post by JTT3 » Mon Feb 18, 2019 10:47 am

I think I see three rivets / bolts under the rear door. Wouldn’t that make it a 10?


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Re: 1909 Touring, anyone seen it?

Post by wayne sheldon » Mon Feb 18, 2019 4:06 pm

Three bolts on the rear half of the body was from the beginning of model Ts. It was the front bracket that had only two bolts only in 1909 for touring cars, roadsters had the two bolt brackets in the front brackets until sometime in early 1910. If you zoom in on a couple of these pictures, you can see that the front brackets are the two bolt ones, indicating that the body at least may be an actual 1909. However, I don't think much else is actual 1909.

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Re: 1909 Touring, anyone seen it?

Post by Belliott3 » Mon Feb 18, 2019 6:27 pm

So who bought it??? And Wayne, do you know approximately when the two bolt bracket in the front changed to three bolts? The original body that was put with my engine is Beaudette body #5071 and it has the two bolt front bracket but three bolt brackets in the middle and rear. Would this make the body a 1909?

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Re: 1909 Touring, anyone seen it?

Post by Belliott3 » Mon Feb 18, 2019 6:33 pm

BTW, the historical plate on it says Minnesota so perhaps this wan't the one on Craigslist.


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Re: 1909 Touring, anyone seen it?

Post by John kuehn » Mon Feb 18, 2019 6:48 pm

I’m not a expert on the early Fords but didn’t the 09 T’s have 2 pedals or was it just the very early 09’s. Is this one supposedly a later 09?


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Re: 1909 Touring, anyone seen it?

Post by Erik Johnson » Mon Feb 18, 2019 7:24 pm

A Minnesota Collector license plate would be an incorrect Minnesota registration for that car.

Minnesota Collector plates are issued to motor vehicles that are at least 20 years old and manufactured after 1935.

It should be registered with a Minnesota Pioneer license plate which are for motor vehicles manufactured prior to 1936.

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Re: 1909 Touring, anyone seen it?

Post by Bob McDaniel » Mon Feb 18, 2019 8:48 pm

I saved these pictures from Craigslist after my wife found it. Wish it had been closer. The add did say it had an aluminum body and looking in Bruce's book I see those were only built in 1909. Seller said he thought the paint on the body was original which is hard to believe but when was the last time you saw a 1909 Touring for sale?
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Re: 1909 Touring, anyone seen it?

Post by Belliott3 » Mon Feb 18, 2019 9:43 pm

I didn't see the original ad - how much was he asking for it, and did it have the original engine?

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Re: 1909 Touring, anyone seen it?

Post by JTT3 » Mon Feb 18, 2019 9:50 pm

No Bill it did not, it had a newer engine in it. I think a 17 or later


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Re: 1909 Touring, anyone seen it?

Post by BobShirleyAtlantaTx » Mon Feb 18, 2019 9:54 pm

I spoke with him, the motor is a 15, don’t know about the frame. He broke an axle and replaced the rear end with a 13/14 and sold the early one. He was asking 18,000. He said the front axle is not early and Lamps are repos


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Re: 1909 Touring, anyone seen it?

Post by BobShirleyAtlantaTx » Mon Feb 18, 2019 9:59 pm

He may had said 17, I’ve slept since then. He sure seemed to be a straight up guy and wasn’t trying too fool anyone.


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Re: 1909 Touring, anyone seen it?

Post by wayne sheldon » Tue Feb 19, 2019 6:00 am

Bill E, Sorry, I have been tied up with some stuff lately. Been slow getting back to things.

"And Wayne, do you know approximately when the two bolt bracket in the front changed to three bolts?"
I only know approximately. I have read several discussions in the past about this, and to my satisfaction, NOT seen a definitive answer. One of our better researchers did post the date given on a "date of changes" note from the original records. Unfortunately, a computer partial meltdown over a year ago lost my couple thousand bookmarks that would have made it likely I could find that particular thread.
The problem with the "dates of changes" notes is that often the note was made after the change was actually made, and other times, they could be made for a planned change and not actually implemented for a few months. And, like so very many things with early Ford production, usually there was some amount of overlap when both early and later details were both used. Sometimes that overlap was very short (maybe a couple weeks?). Other times that overlap couple be a few months.
Empirical evidence suggests the change in that front bracket occurred maybe as early as September of 1909 on the touring cars, and likely overlapped at least until December (Warning! I AM guessing a bit there!). Although the notes for the change made no distinction for the roadsters, empirical evidence (and the colors the roadsters were painted) suggests that the roadsters may have used the two bolt front bracket at least for a couple months into calendar 1910. My guess also is that just like the weakness in the 1913 touring car bodies brought the style change out early for the '14 touring cars, whereas the runabouts continued in the "long-door" '13 style for about three to four more months because that weakness really did not affect them. I suspect Ford and/or their body supplier companies continued to use up the two bolt brackets on the front of the 1910 roadsters simply because they had them on hand. The considerably lighter roadster body didn't really need the three bolt bracket there.

An original touring car body with the two bolt bracket in the front could have technically been a 1910 model year car. However, most people with 1909 built Ts seem to prefer to call them 1909s. And I can't say that I really blame them.

As for the manufacturer's serial number on your body? That is something that I hope a data gathering thread added to this new forum can answer.
The best information I have at this time is what is in Bruce McCalley's book "Model T Ford The Car That Changed The World'. From page number 475 through 499, Bruce gives some notes from the surviving original shipping invoices. It had been several years since I had looked at those notes. Unfortunately, although body numbers are given for some late 1910s and some 1911s, I did not see any body numbers for 1909 or early '10s. The lowest body serial number I saw there was just short of eleven thousand, on a Pontiac/Beaudette body touring car shipped in late July 1910.
I do not know if the actual shipping invoices have the body serial numbers for that early or not. If they do? That might be the best way to research this particular aspect of the various numbers. I wish I lived close enough to spend some time there, but that is not likely to happen. Making an estimate based on numbers so far apart would be difficult, and not very reliable. However, based on your number of I would estimate that your body serial number of 5071 would have been a late '09 or early '10 model year. With the two bolt front bracket, it couldn't likely be any much later anyway.


A couple other comments.
The two lever two pedal Ts were all in the first thousand Ts built. Again, looking in Bruce's book, it appears the last ones manufactured were built in February 1909. The "water-pump" cars went from the beginning until about model T number 2500, built in the first days of May 1909. After that, the T most of us love with the engine we know continued (with many minor changes) till the end of model T production in 1927.

And again, the two bolt body to frame bracket on the front of the body was only the two (one right, one left) front brackets. The other four (two on the right, two on the left) were three bolt brackets from the beginning.

I hope some of that helps.

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Re: 1909 Touring, anyone seen it?

Post by TonyB » Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:46 am

My October 4, 1909 assembled car with engine number 11150 and body number B 7264 has the two bolt mounting for the front part of the body.
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1909 Touring, 1914 Touring, 1915 Speedster, 1924 Coupe.

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Re: 1909 Touring, anyone seen it?

Post by Belliott3 » Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:57 am

Wayne, as usual your thoroughness in research is invaluable - thank you! This is the first time someone has given me a fairly reasonable date frame as to my T body. And Tony, your numbers help as well. Since my Beaudette body is 5071 and it has the early 2 bolt bracket, going by your car I can assume mine was made prior to Oct. of 1909 and still being produced as a 1910 model year. Thanks to everyone who has contributed to my query!

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Re: 1909 Touring, anyone seen it?

Post by Bob McDaniel » Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:24 pm

UNADJUSTEDNONRAW_thumb_f79.jpg
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UNADJUSTEDNONRAW_thumb_37f5.jpg
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Some more pictures the seller sent to me that were never posted.
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Re: 1909 Touring, anyone seen it?

Post by Bob McDaniel » Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:37 pm

UNADJUSTEDNONRAW_thumb_37c2.jpg
UNADJUSTEDNONRAW_thumb_38e0.jpg
UNADJUSTEDNONRAW_thumb_118de.jpg
UNADJUSTEDNONRAW_thumb_118ec.jpg
UNADJUSTEDNONRAW_thumb_4434.jpg
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Re: 1909 Touring, anyone seen it?

Post by Bob McDaniel » Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:19 pm

This car has a known history back to 1935. It has a 1916 engine and later axles including a 1911/12 style 12 rivet clamshell rear end. The body is stamped with B B 194 X which I need to confirm when I am feeling better and can check. It has the aluminum body and some of its original parts but that's OK because this is going to be a driver and will be used on tours and just driven. If it had been 100% correct it would be hard to justify driving it 100+ miles a day with the open valves and the chance of engine failure damaging an early 09 block. I would rather drive and enjoy the car than to leave it in the garage and just show everyone pictures and say I have one. Car shows are nice but only so many a year before it gets old. I want to feel the wind in my hair while I still have hair. :D

So if you have not guessed by now I am the one that bought the 09 on craigslist and like I said before I wish it was closer, Kansas City was a long trip for someone in my condition but when I recover it should be worth it!
SANY1717.JPG
SANY1718.JPG
SANY1719.JPG
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Re: 1909 Touring, anyone seen it?

Post by wayne sheldon » Wed Feb 20, 2019 2:52 pm

Hey Bob, you are becoming quite the "brass era T guy"! As I commented in my first post this thread, "I do like it!" This should be a wonderful addition to the collection, and a great car to see on any early car tour. You better start getting better quick!

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Re: 1909 Touring, anyone seen it?

Post by Belliott3 » Wed Feb 20, 2019 4:06 pm

Congrats, Bob on joining the early brass affliction! Now that you finally found a genuine 1909 T, I can't wait to see your Model T museum featuring every year brass T! :)








t!

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Re: 1909 Touring, anyone seen it?

Post by Belliott3 » Wed Feb 20, 2019 4:07 pm

I forgot, me thinks you still need to add a '10 to that herd!

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