What to look for when buying a 1923 Touring?

[jwilliams81]

Hello Everyone,

I am 39 years old and starting the slow process of looking for a Model T.
I currently have a great 1931 Model A Town sedan that I almost daily drive to work.
She is completely stock and I love it. I have been hitting 5,000 miles a year for the past 4 years.

I have narrowed my search of a T to a 1923 Touring with electric start.
My budget is a max of $10k. I don't mind having a Ruckstell rear end, but I don't need it.
I do want the car to retain all of the stock Ford functions, like reliably starting and running on magneto. ( I don't want a fancy distributor )
So I would be looking for an engine and transmission that has been overhauled in the not to distant past.
I have seen several T's advertised as restored, but you can tell that is just paint and a new top. One look at the engine bay tells me that it has never been touched. I would want something I can learn to work on, not have to work on to drive and enjoy... if that makes sense.

What are some things I should know to ask owners about?
Are these basic wants crazy to be looking for at this price point?

Thanks in advance!
Jarrod

[RustyFords]

If the seller is promoting the engine/trans as recently rebuilt, ask to see the itemized receipts from the rebuilder. When Ross Lilleker refreshed my engine, he provided an itemized receipt that spelled out everything he did. Were I to ever sell the car, I'd use this as a selling point and would be fine with the buyer calling Ross to verify everything.

Same for the rearend.

If they can't or won't produce them....red flag.

[Charlie B in N.J.]

What Rusty said plus: insist on taking a compression test. If you’re denied walk. Do this no matter how recent you’re told it was rebuilt. We’re not all nice guys. (Experience talk in’ here).Jack up the rear and yank the rear wheels in & out with the E brake off. Excessive play usually indicates thrust washers gone = rear end rebuild. Very little play doesn’t necessarily mean they are good but too much is a definite problem. Make damn sure the car has a clear title!!! This is a must in my book as in don’t buy a car that you need to prove is yours. It just might be stolen. Get under and carefully look it over. Take your time and ask questions. It’s best if the engine is cold. If it’s been warmed up before your arrival beware. Noises can fade with heat. If you’re not very well versed in the T bring someone that is. Especially for the test drive. Make a new friend if necessary. Be very wary of a car that doesn’t run. Lordy I could go on for days.

[Steve Jelf]

I agree with all the advice so far. I gather you have studied the years enough to know you want a 1923. If you're not thoroughly familiar with that year's distinguishing features, study some more. It's very common for these cars to be titled and registered with the wrong model year. That's usually an innocent mistake. People misremember what they're told or get otherwise confused, or don't understand the difference between model year and calendar year. I bought a "1922" TT that turned out to be a 1924. My 1923 touring was sold to me as a 1922. The next time I bought a T I had studied enough to know that it was really the year advertised.

Another check you can make is whether the steering is tight or needs a lot of TLC. If you jack the front end off the ground, grab a wheel and shake, do all the components flop around? Is there 2" or less steering wheel play, a lot less, or a little more, or a lot more?

You won't use everything here, but some of the things on the club safety checklists would be good to check.

These may help too: http://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG99.html

http://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG90.html

This page suggests some places to sell, so they are also places to look: http://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG100.html

What you want for under ten grand is not the least bit crazy. it should not be hard at all to find a decent 1923 that fills the bill.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

I always get a kick out of walking up to the car for sale and seeing a battery charger hooked up to it. Tried to start it till the battery was dead? Bad battery? Hasn't run in 8 years? Bad starter? Bad generator? Just shows that this is not a "fresh" car, that is in regular use. Not in it itself a damning thing, but sends up question marks!

Also, suspicious when the tank has about a quart of gas in it...

Check the oil too, for color & level. Doesn't come out of the bottom petcock?? Oh Oh, what's the engine like?

Also look at how the doors fit. Do they fit flush all the way around, or do they hang out at the bottom? If they do, bad body wood and a sagged out body. Grab the passenger side arm rest, with the door open. Shove it in & out. Is it solid, or does it move and flop back & forth? Again, body wood conditions.

With the parking brake off, grab each rear wheel at the 9 & 3 o'clock locations and give them a hard twist, as if you're trying to "steer" them right & left. If the axle tapers are loose, they'll slop around when you do this.

[John kuehn]

There are more than a few Model T’s around that have been restored or at least have had time and money spent on them and for whatever reason the owner wants to sell it. They spend around $15-17,000 for the restoration and find out they can’t get what they want for it.

These are the cars you can find if you take your time to look.
As others have said check them out for receipts of who did the work and what was done.
Make sure it has a clear title, new or good radiator, rebuilt rear end and rebuilt or at least a refreshed engine.
Good luck!

[dlmyers]

Ron Miller is not far from you in Shandon OH.
He may be able to help you find a car.
http://ronsmachineshop.com/Home.html

[Art M]

All of these given suggestions are excellent. In addition, I recommend that you check that the wooden spokes are tight and not tightened with shims. Listen for loose rod bearings. When loose, they knock at about 20 mph under no load.
I have a 23 touring and I understand why you want that particular year. 24s are similar but have the high hood.
Good luck.

[Kerry]

With a long screw driver between the block and front crank pulley and then the hole on pan to push it back, see if it floats in and out, you should have none. That will tell you if it's a good re-build or not.

[Norman Kling]

All the ideas expressed above are good ones, but many of them can be fixed with a little money and do it yourself work.
The most important thing to be sure the body is in good condition. The body is an expensive part to restore. In all the cars built before 1926, and even the 26-27 sedans the body is built on a wood frame with the sheet metal nailed or screwed on. The metal can be in good condition, but the wood is subject to rot and termites. So look for little particles which look like tiny dust specks around the splash aprons, also under where the car is parked, and also check the sides of the body to see if they feel solid when you pull in and out around the doors. If the wood is in good condition, it should be solid and the doors should open and close easily.
The engine and transmission can usually be rebuilt as well as the rear axle assembly. And the front axle assembly can also be rebuilt easily without a great expense. Wood wheel spokes should be tight and if not, the wheels can be re-spoked. You can buy ready made spokes from the vendors or send the wheels out to be rebuilt.
Drive it around a while to see if it overheats and check the radiator for leaks. A new radiator costs up to $1,000 sometimes more, and even a used radiator which does not leak can have a problem conducting heat from the water tubes to the fins.
Anyway, there might be some parts which will need to be fixed, some are more critical than others for safety, but the hardest and most expensive part to fix is the wood skeleton for the body.
I would also recommend you find someone from a local club in your area, who is willing to go with you to look at the cars. Also remember, all members are getting older and some are no longer able to drive or they pass away, so there might be some very good cars among the local members which are for sale.
Good luck,
Norm
You can expect some problems with various parts of the car

[big2bird]

I agree with Norm.

Gracie.jpg (79.99 KiB) Viewed 6287 times

This is a great looking car. I would buy it for $10K without hesitation. The heavy lifting is done.

[jwilliams81]

I agree with Norm.
Gracie.jpg
This is a great looking car. I would buy it for $10K without hesitation. The heavy lifting is done.

Big2bird,
Are you saying that car is for sale?
I agree it looks gorgeous and would be interested if for sale.

[jwilliams81]

All the ideas expressed above are good ones, but many of them can be fixed with a little money and do it yourself work.
The most important thing to be sure the body is in good condition. The body is an expensive part to restore. In all the cars built before 1926, and even the 26-27 sedans the body is built on a wood frame with the sheet metal nailed or screwed on. The metal can be in good condition, but the wood is subject to rot and termites. So look for little particles which look like tiny dust specks around the splash aprons, also under where the car is parked, and also check the sides of the body to see if they feel solid when you pull in and out around the doors. If the wood is in good condition, it should be solid and the doors should open and close easily.
The engine and transmission can usually be rebuilt as well as the rear axle assembly. And the front axle assembly can also be rebuilt easily without a great expense. Wood wheel spokes should be tight and if not, the wheels can be re-spoked. You can buy ready made spokes from the vendors or send the wheels out to be rebuilt.
Drive it around a while to see if it overheats and check the radiator for leaks. A new radiator costs up to $1,000 sometimes more, and even a used radiator which does not leak can have a problem conducting heat from the water tubes to the fins.
Anyway, there might be some parts which will need to be fixed, some are more critical than others for safety, but the hardest and most expensive part to fix is the wood skeleton for the body.
I would also recommend you find someone from a local club in your area, who is willing to go with you to look at the cars. Also remember, all members are getting older and some are no longer able to drive or they pass away, so there might be some very good cars among the local members which are for sale.
Good luck,
Norm
You can expect some problems with various parts of the car

Norman Kling,
I think you summed it up pretty well.
I know the front and rear ends can be rebuilt, but I would like to pay the money now to get into a Model T that doesn't need that much work right away. I will note your suggestions in my list.
Thanks for you input!
Jarrod

[jwilliams81]

There are more than a few Model T’s around that have been restored or at least have had time and money spent on them and for whatever reason the owner wants to sell it. They spend around $15-17,000 for the restoration and find out they can’t get what they want for it.

These are the cars you can find if you take your time to look.
As others have said check them out for receipts of who did the work and what was done.
Make sure it has a clear title, new or good radiator, rebuilt rear end and rebuilt or at least a refreshed engine.
Good luck!

John,
That is exactly how I understand it. The Model A world is about the same.
Being 39 years old it would be nice to find a Model T that has been pretty much restored so that I can become the new caretaker of her for another 60 years.
Thanks!
Jarrod

[jwilliams81]

I agree with all the advice so far. I gather you have studied the years enough to know you want a 1923. If you're not thoroughly familiar with that year's distinguishing features, study some more. It's very common for these cars to be titled and registered with the wrong model year. That's usually an innocent mistake. People misremember what they're told or get otherwise confused, or don't understand the difference between model year and calendar year. I bought a "1922" TT that turned out to be a 1924. My 1923 touring was sold to me as a 1922. The next time I bought a T I had studied enough to know that it was really the year advertised.

Another check you can make is whether the steering is tight or needs a lot of TLC. If you jack the front end off the ground, grab a wheel and shake, do all the components flop around? Is there 2" or less steering wheel play, a lot less, or a little more, or a lot more?

You won't use everything here, but some of the things on the club safety checklists would be good to check.
227773.jpg


227774.jpg


MTFCA SAFETY 1.jpg


MTFCA SAFETY 2.jpg

These may help too: http://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG99.html

http://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG90.html

This page suggests some places to sell, so they are also places to look: http://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG100.html

What you want for under ten grand is not the least bit crazy. it should not be hard at all to find a decent 1923 that fills the bill.

Steve,
Thanks for the safety sheets! That will surely help when I find one I like enough to inspect.
I do not know all the minute details between model years yet.. but I did just order the judging guidelines from Langs.
Are there any obvious things to look for to make sure it is in fact a 1923?
Thanks!
Jarrod

[big2bird]

I agree with Norm.
Gracie.jpg
This is a great looking car. I would buy it for $10K without hesitation. The heavy lifting is done.

Big2bird,
Are you saying that car is for sale?
I agree it looks gorgeous and would be interested if for sale.

I doubt it. I just used that picture as an example.

[Steve Jelf]

Are there any obvious things to look for to make sure it is in fact a 1923?

You bet. The serial number (stamped above the water inlet) will tell the engine assembly date. Of course engine swaps are common, so you have to look at other things too. 1923 was the last year for some features and the first year for others, so that makes ID pretty easy. 1923 is the last year of the low radiator (about 17" showing), and the last year without a radiator apron. It's the first year of the steel firewall on many but not all cars (beginning February 1923). It's the first year of the leaning-back windshield. It's the first year of the "one man top" that clamps to the windshield posts instead of fastening with straps.

[Steve Jelf]

I should have mentioned the Model T Encyclopedia by Bruce McCalley. There's an abridged version on this website, but the full version on disk is the best fifty bucks you can spend on a Model T. It details changes by feature and by year, and lists all known serial numbers by date. But wait, that's not all. The disk includes owner's manuals for all years, Ford Methods & Shops, tools, advertising, and The First Six Years telling about the pre-T Fords.

http://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG80.html

[jwilliams81]

Are there any obvious things to look for to make sure it is in fact a 1923?

You bet. The serial number (stamped above the water inlet) will tell the engine assembly date. Of course engine swaps are common, so you have to look at other things too. 1923 was the last year for some features and the first year for others, so that makes ID pretty easy. 1923 is the last year of the low radiator (about 17" showing), and the last year without a radiator apron. It's the first year of the steel firewall on many but not all cars (beginning February 1923). It's the first year of the leaning-back windshield. It's the first year of the "one man top" that clamps to the windshield posts instead of fastening with straps.

IMG_0598 copy 4.JPG


IMG_0598 copy 5.JPG

Steve,
Thank you for the information!
I knew about the serial number, and knew enough not to go off of just that when buying one.
As others have said, it would be nice to find one restored with good body wood with engine and trans, rear end already taken care of for me while staying close to my budget.
Thanks,
Jarrod

[jwilliams81]

This forum and posts have really helped me!
I can not thank everyone enough that has given input, especially Steve Jelf. I am getting some great mentoring!

I am still on the look out for a 23' Touring that has been restored (body wood, engine, trans, rear end, front end).
But now I know a lot of what not to look for or consider.

[Ron Patterson]

I did not see this item listed.
As with any Model T Ford being considered for purchase always check the magneto output with a St. Louis (only) magneto tester.
The St. Louis magneto tester is the gold standard for checking the Model T magneto.
If the magneto has insufficient power output to properly operate the ignition coils it can a real chore to fix it and it couldn't be in a more difficult place to get to and work on. It is the functional equivalent of open heart surgery for a Model T.

[Steve Jelf]

If you're not about to spring the $150 for a magneto tester and can't find one to borrow, at least be sure the car runs on MAG. Typically a T runs better on MAG than it does on BAT. Ideally it will start on MAG with the hand crank. Correcting a seriously deficient magneto requires major surgery. Even if you don't end up spending a lot on new parts, you do have to pull the engine and separate the transmission.

[jwilliams81]

Yep, I expect a restored engine to have the magneto restored as well. It just makes sense while you have it out and are there.
But it is something on my list to ask potential finds.

[jwilliams81]

I'm still on the hunt for a low radiator 1923 Touring with electric start, fully restored.
These are proving hard to find haha.

[John Dow]

WOAH, Woah, woah!!!! That's my car "Gracie" pictured above and although I'm flattered you think she's righteous, (I do too) she's not for sale and certainly not for $10k. Unfortunately while driving it in October she joined the "Two Piece Crank Shaft" club. Luckily, I was going slow enough no residual damage occurred. Right now the engine is in the hands of none other than Mike Bender who is doing a top to bottom overhaul. We should be back in business early summer. Thanks!!!

[George House]

Understand the difference between ‘Model year’ and ‘calendar year’. As Steve touched upon earlier; you might come across a T made in the Fall of 1922 and titled as a ‘22 but should have the ‘23 model year features (1 man top, low radiator and slanted to the rear windshield.) Similarly, someone might present you with a T built in the Fall of ‘23 and titled a ‘23 but with Model year ‘24-‘25 features (high radiator, longer Cowl and radiator apron with a crank hole.)

[John Codman]

What Rusty said plus: insist on taking a compression test. If you’re denied walk. Do this no matter how recent you’re told it was rebuilt. We’re not all nice guys. (Experience talk in’ here).Jack up the rear and yank the rear wheels in & out with the E brake off. Excessive play usually indicates thrust washers gone = rear end rebuild. Very little play doesn’t necessarily mean they are good but too much is a definite problem. Make damn sure the car has a clear title!!! This is a must in my book as in don’t buy a car that you need to prove is yours. It just might be stolen. Get under and carefully look it over. Take your time and ask questions. It’s best if the engine is cold. If it’s been warmed up before your arrival beware. Noises can fade with heat. If you’re not very well versed in the T bring someone that is. Especially for the test drive. Make a new friend if necessary. Be very wary of a car that doesn’t run. Lordy I could go on for days.

Sorry, If I was selling my T I'm not going to allow anyone to take anything apart. If the prospective buyer wants to think that I'm hiding something he/she can go somewhere else. As a buyer I would just assume that I'm going to have to overhaul the rear end at some point unless the seller can produce a receipt for an overhaul with a list of parts replaced. I would also assume that I would have to replace or recore the radiator unless the seller can show a receipt for a recent radiator overhaul - think about $850.

[jwilliams81]

WOAH, Woah, woah!!!! That's my car "Gracie" pictured above and although I'm flattered you think she's righteous, (I do too) she's not for sale and certainly not for $10k. Unfortunately while driving it in October she joined the "Two Piece Crank Shaft" club. Luckily, I was going slow enough no residual damage occurred. Right now the engine is in the hands of none other than Mike Bender who is doing a top to bottom overhaul. We should be back in business early summer. Thanks!!!

Mr. Dow,
The Woah is right, that's what I said when I saw your Gracie. She is absolutely gorgeous. I'm sorry to hear about the engine, but excited for you to have it rebuilt. I just had my Model A engine rebuilt by Schwalms in PA and I'm beyond happy. But yes, I am looking for one restored to the level of yours, but I am willing to pay for it . Just have to find one. Thanks, Jarrod

[John Dow]

Thank you Jarrod for your kind words. Gracie is very special to me and parting with her is the farthest thing from my mind. When I brought her home the day the crank broke my wife asked "well now what's this going to cost" I replied "I don't care". Take care.