12 Volt Geared Starter

[Oldav8tor]

Ok.... I realize I'm on thin ice here but I found out something I thought I should share. I made the choice during the resurrection of of my 1917 to add a starter and go 12 volts. An original 6 volt starter worked...but not great. After a few tours I updated to a WOSP 12 volt geared starter that I absolutely love. With the original starter there were times when the car was hot that I had to get out and crank it off compression or the starter wouldn't turn it over (I have a Z head.) With the geared starter there is never a problem! I also don't have to worry about damaging the Bendix and all the problems associated with it. Am I missing the Model T experience? If you mean being stalled in the middle of a busy intersection and not being able to start my car, not at all....

As others have noted, the WOSP starters can be pricey. I decided to try to track them down to the source for a friend and here is what I found <http://www.wosperformance.com/stockists/wosp-usa/> I communicated with Ben at Raceparts USA and he quoted $356.25 plus shipping (approx. $20 for ground). Not a bad price in my book. $475 from Snyders. Your car, your choice.....
The starter is a WOSP LMS256

815476.jpg (16.47 KiB) Viewed 7849 times

[speedytinc]

I know several people running them & very happy. If one HAS to run 12v, its an option. With the option of modifying a stock starter,(done it) Its not something I would run. If I did, I would not be in a hurry to show it off. It dont look right on a T IMO.
Good on ya for finding the source & saving big $$.

[Henry K. Lee]

In my humble opinion…, very un-cool to advertise this on an open forum. Why? Because the commercial outlay and investment our vendors go though in taxes, insurance, higher utilities and the likes there of are not an equal playground. Don’t ask in the future why nothing is being made to support the hobby.., I personally am quitting for this very reason in that everyone wants a good deal and cheaper than this or that. For them to sell direct to an individual is wrong in that our vendors went out of their way to get this product out there in advertising, etc.

Please in the future find someone else to purchase from Mr Juhl, but not me.

My Rant,

Hank

[Oldav8tor]

Hank has a good point. Maybe I should have kept it to myself. I had recently read another post about starters and it was said that one major thing against the 12 volt was the cost. My thinking was if you took cost out of the equation you could decide on merit, desire to maintain authenticity, etc. Sorry if I offended anyone and administrators can feel free to remove it if deemed inappropriate.
My reason for researching in the first place was to help a friend who is facing lots of expense with his new T and trying to make the $$ go as far as possible. I’m sure he isn’t the only one in that situation.

[Mark Gregush]

Bet u 10 to 1 they make the geared starters that Snyders sells at a mark up. So if that is the case, then you are supporting the hobby.

[Art M]

I would convert to 12 volt starter if I thought it was beneficial in starting the car. I cleaned all connections and cleaned the starter. The starter now turns the engine faster than ever. My NAPA battery is over three years old.

If I did convert to 12 volts, I would modify the original starter. It would not be that difficult. The late Larry Becker used to do it. 60 years ago, he was great at teaching the young folks in Norwalk, Ohio. I always appreciated his lessons.
Art Mirtes

[Cap]

I'm one of those guys that running a 6 volt starter on 12 volts.. It's on mt TT and it's been a somewhat daily driver from ~07 when dad put it on the road.. I got the truck in '14 and finally broke a Starter Spring in '19.. tossed another one in and off she goes..

Cap

[TXGOAT2]

Put a 4 foot Cheapo skinny cable on the starter and it probably won't break another spring. Carry a fire extinguisher in case the skinny Cheapo cable sets its insulation on fire....

[paddy1998]

Bet u 10 to 1 they make the geared starters that Snyders sells at a mark up. So if that is the case, then you are supporting the hobby.

Sure. Buy from a British vendor who's undercutting their own American Model T parts distributor, and who sells EXACTLY ONE part for the Model T and call it supporting the hobby.

Nice.

[dmdeaton]

I am running 4 of these British starters
2 on t’s and 2 on a’s
This starter coupled with a good battery and you are good to go for a while. Bicker all you want, I like drivability.

[Mark Gregush]

Bet u 10 to 1 they make the geared starters that Snyders sells at a mark up. So if that is the case, then you are supporting the hobby.

Sure. Buy from a British vendor who's undercutting their own American Model T parts distributor, and who sells EXACTLY ONE part for the Model T and call it supporting the hobby.

Nice.

They may be made in the UK, but the seller is on the West Coast. Yes, if I can save 125 buck, I would buy from that supplier. If Snyders sell the same one, that is a big mark up and if Snyders gets them direct from the factory, bet the markup is even greater. Not saying they are the same, but sure looks like it. I don't think that buying a few items is going to break the hobby. No different from someone making the parts and selling both to both the general public and suppliers.

[paddy1998]

Bet u 10 to 1 they make the geared starters that Snyders sells at a mark up. So if that is the case, then you are supporting the hobby.

Sure. Buy from a British vendor who's undercutting their own American Model T parts distributor, and who sells EXACTLY ONE part for the Model T and call it supporting the hobby.

Nice.

They may be made in the UK, but the seller is on the West Coast. Yes, if I can save 125 buck, I would buy from that supplier. If Snyders sell the same one, that is a big mark up and if Snyders gets them direct from the factory, bet the markup is even greater. Not saying they are the same, but sure looks like it. I don't think that buying a few items is going to break the hobby. No different from someone making the parts and selling both to both the general public and suppliers.

There's a small corner grocery store about a mile from my house. It's the last small butcher shop in town, and they have very, very good meat. And for the past two decades they've been hanging on by the skin of their teeth. Some of us go out of our way to patronize that store. Every single product they sell costs more than at the supermarket, and a lot more than Costco, Sam's or Walmart. I buy everything I need there if they carry it. It probably inflates my grocery bill by 25-35%. I do it to help make sure they stay in business.

I don't begrudge anybody saving money on a bigger ticket item like that starter, and I probably would do the same thing if I was in the market for one. But I wouldn't pretend that I'm supporting the hobby by doing it.

Snyder's, Lang's, Chaffin's, and a host of other suppliers who cater to this niche hobby have done alright by me. I've called all of them with technical questions and gotten their time and expertise in return, even when I wasn't making a purchase.

And the more I think about it as I write this the more I'm inclined to think that if I do find myself in the market for that starter I think I'd probably pay the extra to Snyder's or any other vendor that has done so much to support this hobby.

Most other antique car niches are not as blessed as we are with dedicated vendors and we should do what we can to keep it that way and not throw nickels around like they're manhole covers. They have to earn a living too.

[dmdeaton]

I have spread my nickels around all the vendors and then some. Some specialty items are better sourced from the manufacturer than the vendors. Tech support comes to mind, which is far better from the source. I’m not a cheap a## by no means but when you are sourcing parts and pieces it is far better to have options. How many of you have your own little list of preferred places to buy certain items from? I am guessing more that not source parts from places other then vendors. Do we buy every nut, bolt, and screw from the vendors? Heck no, get real. Talking to the vendors they say they are the busiest they have ever been. They are not getting hurt.

And to get back on topic, that starter is pretty darn nice

[Oldav8tor]

I didn't think my post would stir up such a reaction.... I didn't even mention Marvel Mystery Oil!

Since joining the hobby I have contributed a lot of $$ to the well-being of Langs, Snyders, Birdhaven, Chaffins, etc. etc. I certainly appreciate the support they give to the hobby....we T owners are truly blessed in that regard. I will always purchase from them unless I would have to pay a large financial penalty for doing so.

I have had to resort to tracking a specialty part to it's source on more than one occasion of late because the vendors are out of stock. The pandemic and other forces have made some parts difficult to find. I have also had to go to other than the regular sources because the ones I'd usually patronize can't provide what I need. For example, I recently purchased some truly excellent brass-stemmed 30 x 3.5 tubes from Blockley's of England when I couldn't find them from any source in the USA. Furthermore, I don't consider Model T's and those who love them to be constrained by national borders....maybe that comes from living my entire life within an hour of Canada and sharing Model T activities with our Canadian neighbors.

[TRDxB2]

I am often confused by the reaction some members have from a post. Especially in this case, for those who feel it is a sin to purchase parts from other than our primary suppliers. The Forum's "Classifieds - Parts" section is full of members selling parts new & used, not to mention those seeking to buy parts from members that our Suppliers still have in stock or not (head gaskets). My guess is that its easy for some to justify going to a swap meet (Chickasha, Tulare, OCF, Hershey, etc) to sell or buy parts because its "different".
John 8:7, “He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone...”

[perry kete]

Just MY thoughts on this subject of buying parts worldwide.

Henry Ford manufactured and sold cars in Canada, England, Germany, Brazil, Argentina, Netherlands, Russia, and every other country worldwide. He built manufacturing plants, dealerships, and part suppliers ALL OVER THE WORLD.

Our current suppliers and manufactures sell and ship parts ALL OVER THE WORLD !

So then why is it a crime to buy from other countries?

If the suppliers in U.S.A. can ship overseas then why can't the overseas suppliers ship to the U.S.A.?

[John Codman]

I would buy one of those small, geared starters for my T if they came in six volts, but my T is staying at it's manufacturer's voltage. I have one of those small starters on my modern (by T standards) rod and I love it.

[dykker5502]

FWIW: These starters are developed by Niel Tuckett and the WSOPerformace in a joint effort, according to Tuckett themselves.

https://www.modeltford.co.uk/product-pa ... rter-motor

The Tuckett brothers are some of the biggest supporters of the Model T hobby in the UK, Niel is author or co-author of several Model T books and runs courses in driving and maintaining the Model T. Now who does that in the US?

https://www.modeltford.co.uk/courses

So buying this starter from Tuckett Brothers in the UK is definately supporting the hobby WW.

There is a world outside the US even though it may surprise some.....

[J1MGOLDEN]

That starter has been around for several years for a variety of cars and on a few new cars even.

The only new part is the adapter plate that was designed to bolt it to a Model T.

Buckeye Electric in Ohio is the official repair facility and has all the spare parts required that might be needed.

The last time I talked with Generator Joe there he told me they had never been sent a bad starter in need of repair.

[Norman Kling]

I think this thread has drifted far away from the original intent!
I have never before heard of these geared starters, and would like to know more about them. I am not planning on installing one on any of my cars, however, I have seen many non stock parts on other T's and am interested in how they work. It looks like the gear is in contact with the flywheel gear at all times. Would this make a noise, and also would it wear out the gear faster than the constant banging into the flywheel by the Ford Starter? Also, what disconnects the starter from turning the engine after the car has started?
Norm

[Sarikatime]

Good question Norman, I was noticing and thinking the same thing. Could it be that the starter pictured is for a nother car and not a T?

[John Illinois]

I have a geared starter on my Model A. The gear at rest is in front of the ring gear. It has a built in solenoid that has 2 functions.

First it pushes the gear into mesh.
It then energizes the motor to turn the engine.

This eliminates clashing of the gear and the ring gear bevel is not used.
I put one in my A because the ring gear was walking forward and I did not want to pull the engine. I tapped the ring gear back. It has worked well for several years. Downside looks very untraditional.

John

[Randall strickland]

Of the four I have installed two have leaked oil, problem is when machined cut into bolt counter bores,I spoke with the
man in Ca six months ago and made him aware of problem, remove allen bolts and look carefully in counterbores to see if the machining cut into bores , if so seal with ultra black no big deal to check and might save you from pulling starter back off!

[Nv Bob]

After all the head aches I had with mine I buy one befor I repair that ford one again and no more bendix troubles
Who wants buy my starter and bendix

[TXGOAT2]

Stock Ford starters are usually reliable.

[Oldav8tor]

FWIW - before deciding to buy the 12 volt starter I took my original six volt along with a diagram on how to rewire it for 12 volts to an old-time automotive electric shop. A fellow I have known for years flat out refused to do it and gave me several reasons why it was a bad idea. I know others have re-wired them successfully so I won't get into that. Regardless, I was committed to staying with 12 volts and wanted something reliable. My original starter had given me trouble on a number of occasions, often refusing to turn the engine over when it was hot. On the covered bridge tour I needed help repairing a bendix that failed because of an improperly installed (not by me) woodruff key. Before you ask, the starter was a recent rebuild by a reputable rebuilder so it should have been up to it. Since I was committed to 12 volts, a 12 volt starter seemed the smart choice rather than trying to make my original starter do something it wasn't designed to do. I've put over 2000 miles on my car since installing the geared starter - it has never given me the least trouble, starting my car quickly whether cold or hot.
The fact that it was designed by Model T people (Tuckett brothers) for Model T's makes me feel even better about my purchase, which was from Snyders BTW.

[Tim Rogers]

My old 6 volt starter has given me approximately 6,000 miles of reliable service and works flawlessly regardless of temperature. I must be lucky.

[Oldav8tor]

Tim - I suspect you did everything right for an original electrical system - six volts - heavy gauge wire to the starter, etc. It's a system that has it's weak points but has been pretty reliable for over a century. I did not mean to belittle the original system....with the choices I made it just didn't work for me.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

Tim - I suspect you did everything right for an original electrical system - six volts - heavy gauge wire to the starter, etc. It's a system that has it's weak points but has been pretty reliable for over a century. I did not mean to belittle the original system....with the choices I made it just didn't work for me.

The problem Tim, is that you're not enjoying your Model T correctly.

I've heard that starter operating in your car. If sound is any indication, it seems to doing a nice job. Smooth & quiet and turning at a nice speed.

Best as always,

Jerry "Speed Demon" Van